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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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[X] Ask how many men he thinks are necessary for the protection of the temple, its grounds, and its interests.
-[X] Try to gauge his true motives, if he seems receptive ask him outright.
Fehu said:
Always station three five ten times the number of legionnaries as fiery hands in Tyrosh hence forth?
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I would be more comfortable with 100 to 1, he just doesnt need that many men.
 
It will be drawn out period anyway since we need time to establish our order. This was already included in the last vote and in the chapter and has the added benefit of giving a reasonable pretext for what amounts to breaking Burnys Faith Militant.

@DragonParadox, seconding the question, how many Fiery Hand does he command?

Refraining from vote-crafting until we know the scale of things. Talking about 2000 Fiery Hand is something entirely different then 50.
 
I'd make the concession of "Oh, I'm not expecting it to be overnight, but once order is established, it would be a waste of your temple's resources" or something along those lines.

Of course, I'm pretty sure his angle is to have the fiery hand seen keeping order in the slums to increase R'hllor's prestige and power, which we would want to preempt.
 
I think we could allow him twice the bare minimum, enough to protect the temple, patrol the grounds, honor guards and to show off, but not nearly enough to actually pose a threat.
But i agree with Azel, we need numbers, and an idea of what his real motives are, are they fighting cultists? Spionage? Recruiting efforts? Or are they just like any religious cult and need to have a lot of men with guns in case the goverment tries to take away their guns?
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
We ... aren't going to have a military force in our cities which doesn't answer to us. Full stop.
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I support that in principle, but in practice we have already decided that it would be quite impossible to stop a religion from having clerics and some mid-level ones make regular military pale in comparison.
A bit of a guard doesn't actually make them much more dangerous, it's just a question of the impression, mostly.
 
das_slash said:
I think we could allow him twice the bare minimum, enough to protect the temple, patrol the grounds, honor guards and to show off, but not nearly enough to actually pose a threat.
But i agree with Azel, we need numbers, and an idea of what his real motives are, are they fighting cultists? Spionage? Recruiting efforts? Or are they just like any religious cult and need to have a lot of men with guns in case the goverment tries to take away their guns?
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Simply put, he treats us like any other Archon before. A vapid fool that doesn't really care and will be out of the palace as fast as he went in, doubly so due to the track record of the Blackfyres who wanted to use Tyrosh as a staging ground for taking Westeros.

I mostly want to know just how stupid he thinks we are.

My vote will most certainly not be as nice as before, since the guy clearly needs a good reality check.
 
Honestly I'd vote to let them keep their soldiers. The ones willing to stay anyway. Because at this stage a couple hundred Merc in armor isn't much. Our Legionnaires are better equipped and trained, we are way over levelled and they aren't our main target here. Don't forget the real danger front the temple here is the Clerics and whatever their God conjurs up.

I'd be more than willing to trade them keeping their tinpot soldiers and even their gold for a thorough search of their temple. For cultists and other...let us say "controversial" activities. We're gonna be doing the same for the Fratboys temple and whatever fiend God has their hooks in this place anyway. Plus this sets a decent precedent. These are the guys that came up with with a way to turn abortions into a ritual to make shadow assasing loyal to (not) mommy. The evil ones will give us plenty of excuses to get rid of them. The ones big enough to care about anyway.

It's not like we WANT to disarm mundane people of their weapons. In DnD and GoT that won't fly. Honestly giving every one of their slave troops the option to leave, a better alternative in the form of the Legion. And covering any public use they could have for the troops by delivering on our promise of safety and security should remove any justification for the cost of maintaining them. Especially when it becomes apparently to them that the troops would do didly squat if they did try anything.
 
Throwing this out in advance.

[X] Azel

If anyone can call someone a bumbling fool, display our contempt, and wax poetic about how close they skated death in their last attempt at subterfuge in diplomatic tones it's Azel.
 
Abhishek M said:
Honestly I'd vote to let them keep their soldiers. The ones willing to stay anyway. Because at this stage a couple hundred Merc in armor isn't much. Our Legionnaires are better equipped and trained, we are way over levelled and they aren't our main target here. Don't forget the real danger front the temple here is the Clerics and whatever their God conjurs up.

I'd be more than willing to trade them keeping their tinpot soldiers and even their gold for a thorough search of their temple. For cultists and other...let us say "controversial" activities. We're gonna be doing the same for the Fratboys temple and whatever fiend God has their hooks in this place anyway. Plus this sets a decent precedent. These are the guys that came up with with a way to turn abortions into a ritual to make shadow assasing loyal to (not) mommy. The evil ones will give us plenty of excuses to get rid of them. The ones big enough to care about anyway.

It's not like we WANT to disarm mundane people of their weapons. In DnD and GoT that won't fly. Honestly giving every one of their slave troops the option to leave, a better alternative in the form of the Legion. And covering any public use they could have for the troops by delivering on our promise of safety and security should remove any justification for the cost of maintaining them. Especially when it becomes apparently to them that the troops would do didly squat if they did try anything.
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We most certainly want to disarm the people who are not loyal to us an apparently have enough troops to prop up a state within our state.

They will try to use the Fiery Hand to enforce their own laws in the area, which ultimately just leads to confrontation with the Legion. If we let this shit fly here, other temples will try the same, especially other Burny temples and suddenly this becomes a major problem.

Do not assume that muggle forces are worthless. We've just used a bunch of well-trained muggles with a few buffs to mulch a whole invasion force of CR 2 to CR 5 Daemons with minimal losses.
 
[X] Azel

I have no interest in allowing any religion a private army. Too dangerous.
 
The use of the Fiery Hand to enforce their own laws (or even be seen as enforcing our laws), and thus bolstering their own authority (which necessarily undermines our own) is, I think, the main concern. Maybe point out that while defense of the temple is all well and good, we would not recognize them as anything more than household guards (even if it's the house of a god), and thus trying to exert their authority beyond the temple's walls, or trying to pass their own judgement on criminals once apprehended would be seen as usurpation of our rights and privileges.
 
Azel said:
We most certainly want to disarm the people who are not loyal to us an apparently have enough troops to prop up a state within our state.

They will try to use the Fiery Hand to enforce their own laws in the area, which ultimately just leads to confrontation with the Legion. If we let this shit fly here, other temples will try the same, especially other Burny temples and suddenly this becomes a major problem.

Do not assume that muggle forces are worthless. We've just used a bunch of well-trained muggles with a few buffs to mulch a whole invasion force of CR 2 to CR 5 Daemons with minimal losses.
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Speaking of which, a moment of appreciation for the Legion.

Fully indoctrinated and highly trained soldiers, all of whom are equipped in Masterwork Fullplate and with Masterwork weapons (to the point where every legionnaire's gear costs around 1000 IM), and in their maiden battle they shattered the Unsullied who were once famed for feeling no fear, and they went toe to toe with Daemons and won.

The Legion is easily one of my favorite things about the quest. We built it from scratch. We got trainers from New Ghis to steal ideas from the Legions of the Ghiscari Empire. We established ties with the Plane of Earth and established a trade deal for iron in bulk. We built a magical furnace to process all that iron into masterwork steel nonstop. We indoctrinated our subjects and got them to fight in our army.

This has all been great.

For the next set of rumors I expect to hear several things:

1. Viserys Targaryen isn't just a Dragonlord, he's a Dragon.
2. Viserys Targaryen has taken Tyrosh in a single day.
3. Apparently Tyrosh was overrun with fiends.
4. The Legion is the best fighting force in the world, they broke Unsullied and slaughtered daemons.
 
Bad choice of words maybe. To be specific, we should be making it clear that it's not the fact that they have people who own swords and stuff hired to act as guards that we have a problem with. It's the implied use of them to enforce their laws. Make it clear that law enforcement is now solely our responsibility and that any use of their "hired guards" for that purpose will be taken as those guards taking going bandit and as employees of the temple they would be held accountable. After all there is no need for guards to be stationed away from the stuff they are guarding.
 
There can be only one law in the land but if the temple wants some of its own security guards within its boundaries then that isn't a problem. But the guards are still subject to the law. Also outside of the temple their guards have no authority..
 
Azel said:
@DragonParadox, seconding the question, how many Fiery Hand does he command?
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Every major temple of Rhllor has 1000 under its command (though not all are gathered in one place) at least in theory. In practice most stay a bit under the number so they can iduct new soldiers without the magisters throwing a fit, since 1000 is the legal maximum they can getaway with in most places. For anyone wondering how they keep that many men under arms, donations though they can have other sources of income too.
 
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Precisely! Plus defending oneself is fine and all but use of "hired guards" to enact personal revenge or "enact justice" or the like will now be seen as an act of subverting the crowns authority and be treated as such.
 
[X] Plan Being Disgustingly Helpful
-[X] "It is indeed a worrying thought that such artifacts could fall into the hands of creatures that had beleaguered this city. Yet while I trust the Fiery Hand to drive away the weaker servants of the pit, I must say that their leaders could have easily slipped past even the best soldiers to steal such treasures unhindered."
-[X] "You have a good point and given the extensive activities in the catacombs below, it would be wise to bring them to safer places. Would we know each other better, I would offer to store them in my vaults for you, though I think the Iron Bank would be a good intermediate, given our very recent acquaintance. After all, they have a reputation to deal fairly, no matter with whom."
-[X] "I will gladly aid you in accounting for all these artifacts and aiding with the transport and since they need to be handled anyway, this would be a good opportunity to reassess some of these objects. The waxing of magic has empowered many an old treasure and some might no longer be safe to store at all and should rather be disposed off."
-[X] "It is such a shame that my coffers will be strained with rebuilding the areas affected the worst by the fighting. Had I enough coin to immediately rebuild this area, it would be easy to assess the catacombs and do some work on the temples vaults, so that a small contingent of Fiery Hand could adequately protect these things and the temple itself."
-[X] Note: Cutting down the Fiery Hand to maybe 120 people, which is enough for three shifts of 40 ceremonial guards.

So far, he tried to play us for a fool and then blatantly tried to bribe us with trinkets to preserve his own power.
Time to teach him that we played this game with people far more skilled and dangerous then him.

TL;DR:
Viserys: "I accept your offer of wealth in the spirit it was given." :V
Red Priest: "That was not the spirit..."
Viserys: "Red Dragon. :V You can tell my restraint from how I'm not currently lounging on my newest money. :V"
 
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Duesal said:
For the next set of rumors I expect to hear several things:

1. Viserys Targaryen isn't just a Dragonlord, he's a Dragon.
2. Viserys Targaryen has taken Tyrosh in a single day.
3. Apparently Tyrosh was overrun with fiends.
4. The Legion is the best fighting force in the world, they broke Unsullied and slaughtered daemons.
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Actually, I'm gleefully looking forward to the mangled rumors that are going to spin out of the whole dragon thing. "Viserys has a dragon! Viserys has two dragons! Viserys has a dozen dragons! Viserys can turn into a dragon!" It'll all be wildly conflicting and just similar enough that the Westerosi will have a hard time separating what's actually going on, outside of first person accounts. Varys might be able to piece together most of it, but he's both constrained by how he's not actually loyal (so is unreliable in passing on information) and by what his audience will believe (and want to hear).

Though, the fact that we took a free city by surprise assault, is going to seriously worry anyone. The icing on the cake is by flipping the Second Sons, the knee-jerk reaction to hire more sellswords stops looking appealing. Of course, this means the very first thing we need to do next month is the diplomacy to the nearby free cities to keep them from asking for protection from Volantis, or making devil pacts or whatnot. We're a happy Viserys who can now turn his eyes Westward, and will totally lose control of any Essosi holdings just like all Westerosi in the past eventually. Yup. No need to panic.
 
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