Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[X] He's got a point. You should help where you can.

People seem to underestimate the adventurers and vagabonds. When I saw the amount of humans in the army back than, my first thought was "How will the dwarves stop the human looting, and will the humans turn on them if they do that?". Because given the amount of treasure we are talking about it is entirely possible for the expedition to turn on itself once the goal is achieved. Cutting down the rabble-rousers before they can rouse the rabble is the Grey Magister thing to do. It is nasty, but it has to be done.

[X] Scout the far side of the Snotling city to ensure there's no other surprises waiting to be found.
[X] Thane Skaroki Grimbrow
[X] They'll be going hunting in the valley. Join them, and bring Wolf along too.

[X] He's got a point. You should help where you can.
[X] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
-[X] Bring Esbern and Seija
[X] Thane Skaroki Grimbrow
[X] Ask him to reforge your sword into a superior one.

Let's bring along Esbern and Seija. It can serve as the test of their combat prowess, and they'll probably be useful against the squigs. And I think it's time we take advantage of getting our sword reforged. Even if we get him a place with the Dwarven smith to help him improve his craft, I suspect it's too late in the expedition for him to fully master whatever he might learn and put it to use for reforging our sword.

And for the Vagabonds... they're probably mostly sigmarites anyway, so we're not even talking about any great loss for humanity. We definitely don't want the expedition to turn on itself.

[X] His command, his business. Stay out of it.

[x] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
- [x] Bring Esbern and Seija
[X] Introduce him to the dwarven smiths so he can try to convince them to teach him.
[X] Grand Master Ruprecht Wulfhart

WorldSlayer said:

How do you feel about Codrin's plan to have as many of the vagabonds and adventurers under his command die in action as possible?

First of all this is simply how we feel about the Codrin's evil plan, we're not committing ourselves to any actions but simply deciding if we think having our commander get his men killed because he's racist or something is good or not.

Honestly he feels like a villain from MASH. The type of asshole who sends all the black guys into the front because he wants them all to die because he's a racist bastard. In his case it's all the guys not from Sylvania which is just as much of an asshole move.

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BoneyM said:

Having gotten to know him a little, talk turns to the men under his command. "Most of the Stirlanders," he says, "and perhaps a third of the rest, seek nothing more than enough money to purchase a farm of their own. The remainder, however, seek their fortunes - either for ambition, or because they are the type to drink and gamble and whore away any amount of money they get their hands on." He looks at you appraisingly.

[Rolling...]

And apparently reaches a positive conclusion, because he continues on frankly. "It is my solemn duty to ensure that as many of that remainder die in the attempt as possible." Being a Grey Wizard means you have long since learned to school your expression, so you are able to keep from showing any surprise at that as Petrescu continues. "Should they achieve their ambition of looting the dwarfhold, it will endanger the fair recompense of the rest. My loyalty is to my fellow Sylvanians and Stirlanders, and to those who would willingly join in their humble ambitions, and not to the band of vagabonds and bandits who would happily anger the dwarves for their personal enrichment."

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By reading the update: He believes that most of the Sylvanians and Stilanders could be trusted as they are either people who are trying to make a living after quitting the military (When they could have made trouble elsewhere) and those who are trying to get off the yoke of the Necromancers. Our IC knowledge validates the former, and is in line with the rationale of the latter.

He also openly states that 1/3rd of the others have a similar mentality. The rest though, are people who are motivated by base greed, and he see's them as an inevitable source of problems, especially since dwarfholds hold near legendary amounts of wealth (folk knowledge), and that getting stuff written in the book of grudges will make everyones day worse. As a former militia Major, his opinion is a qualified one.

Of course, as I emphasised in your quote and the update, what you accuse him of being and his motivations are far from the truth. He is not basing his decisions on race, but rather on what he knows are their underlying motivations for joining this quest.

The real question is, what is the dwarf plan for the loothappy manling problem?

It would be extremely unwise to hire adventurers without a plan for how to pay them, and it would probably help if Codrin and the dwarves were on the same page before someone starts arranging casualties.

Pyrelight said:

The real question is, what is the dwarf plan for the loothappy manling problem?

It would be extremely unwise to hire adventurers without a plan for how to pay them, and it would probably help if Codrin and the dwarves were on the same page before someone starts arranging casualties.

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If Karak Azgal is any indication of the general mindset, being a hold where the dwarves let adventurers go down and try to clear the infested parts and tax the loot they bring up, their plan was most likely quite simple. Pay people a fair share of gold and stand around menacingly with impenetrable armor and runic weapons to convince people that the share is fair and looting that ancient statue is a bad idea. Dwarves are pretty good at that kind of diplomacy.

[X] His command, his business. Stay out of it.
[X] Scout the far side of the Snotling city to ensure there's no other surprises waiting to be found.
[X] Ask him to reforge your sword into a superior one.
[x] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
- [x] Bring Esbern and Seija

Ian Drash said:

If Karak Azgal is any indication of the general mindset, being a hold where the dwarves let adventurers go down and try to clear the infested parts and tax the loot they bring up, their plan was most likely quite simple. Pay people a fair share of gold and stand around menacingly with impenetrable armor and runic weapons to convince people that the share is fair and looting that ancient statue is a bad idea. Dwarves are pretty good at that kind of diplomacy.

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It would be terribly awkward if someone pulled a Uriah Gambit on thousands of people and then found out the actual plan was a combo of naked bribery and implicit threats.

Pyrelight said:

It would be terribly awkward if someone pulled a Uriah Gambit on thousands of people and then found out the actual plan was a combo of naked bribery and implicit threats.

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Yet another reason to be involved: Unlike him, we're high enough in the totem pole to get access to the higher-ups

Pyrelight said:

It would be terribly awkward if someone pulled a Uriah Gambit on thousands of people and then found out the actual plan was a combo of naked bribery and implicit threats.

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Dwarven subtlety with humans is mostly about arranging bribery and threats to maximum effect. The real question is, would it work?

I wouldn't be surprised if the plan also included using the fact, that the expedition would be in the middle of an ork-infested wasteland, where the supply lines are managed solely by the dwarves and they are also the easiest way back to civilization where one can spend the money.

BoneyM said:

Your first self-appointed task is the equipping of a band of marksmen with the Black Lotus venom.
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All in all, it's a good result for a few day's work.

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Not quite what I expected. Very interesting though. Depending on how large a scale she can work at it might be worth getting Panoramia in touch with the people in charge of provisions. This campaign will likely last years and setting up some farms at the front is fairly likely.

such an effect could cause impressive chaos among enemy lines

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That will be exceedingly useful.

Your reputation among dwarves means that he listens doubtfully rather than dismissing you out of hand as you explain your idea

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Which explains why Johann couldn't get the position himself.

these bolts punch right through it, sending dirt flying in every direction

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Ah, the joys of runic artillery. For when you absolutely need to take a giant's head clean off.

Codrin Petrescu

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...this guy either needs watching or avoiding. Given our other commitments I'm inclined towards avoiding.


[X] His command, his business. Stay out of it.
Broadly speaking I'm in favour of his intention (so long as they are actually killed in action rather than just killed), but I really don't want to waste our time helping.

[X] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
- [X] Bring Esbern and Seija
- [X] Bring Panoramia
- [X] Bring Maximilian
I want in on the battle, I want a Journeymanling along and don't much care which.

[X] Marshal Titus Muggins
Food for the food gods. Chairs for the mess table.

[X] Introduce him to the dwarven smiths so he can try to convince them to teach him.
Do our job.

Approval:
[X] Thane Skaroki Grimbrow
[X] Master Engineer Durin Wutokri
[X] They'll be going hunting in the valley. Join them, and bring Wolf along too.
[X] You've heard that greatswords and greataxes are near identical in the way they're used, and you happen to be surrounded by experts in the art of the axe. Learn how to use one.

LoganBert34 said:

Yet another reason to be involved: Unlike him, we're high enough in the totem pole to get access to the higher-ups

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He's on the same council of war we are.

The main difficulty he has is sorting the sheep (keep in line with some oversight), from the goats (will keep in line with enforcement), from the rats (will kill enforcers to keep looting). We don't have the knowledge of the mercenary and adventurer scene to advise him there and it would take a lot of spying actions to get information that he will also be getting by talking to people under his command. I don't think we want to be taking enough actions at this to make a difference.

It does suggest that if we spot a problem in the making among his people, he'll act on it if we tell him and consider dirty solutions if we suggest them.

[x] His command, his business. Stay out of it.


[x] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
- [x] Bring Esbern and Seija
[x] Thane Skaroki Grimbrow
[x] Master Engineer Durin Wutokri
[x] Marshal Titus Muggins
[x] Introduce him to the dwarven smiths so he can try to convince them to teach him.

Ian Drash said:

If Karak Azgal is any indication of the general mindset, being a hold where the dwarves let adventurers go down and try to clear the infested parts and tax the loot they bring up

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Source?

[X] He's got a point. You should help where you can.

[X] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
- [X] Bring Maximilian

[X] Marshal Titus Muggins

[X] They'll be going hunting in the valley. Join them, and bring Wolf along too.

Approval:
[X] His command, his business. Stay out of it.
[X] Thane Skaroki Grimbrow
[X] Master Engineer Durin Wutokri
[X] You've heard that greatswords and greataxes are near identical in the way they're used, and you happen to be surrounded by experts in the art of the axe. Learn how to use one.

[X] Dangerous nonsense. This needs to be stopped.
[X] His command, his business. Stay out of it.

Yeah, no. I do not believe he has had time to get to know several thousand people sufficently to know that they would absolutely go loot mad even if it was explained what would happen to them in very small words. It seems to me that he is letting his predjudice about people seeking 'glory' and perhaps a few bad experiences taint his view of thousands of people. This is especially concerning because a lot of people were sold on this campaign by the Dwarf King's promises of glory and fortune and if he's discovered doing this there may be a mass mutiny.

The campaign will be difficult enough to complete without one of the commanders deliberately setting large portions of our fairly precious troops to die. And that's discounting the idea that he may be found out. Greedy (if you believe he has a totally accurate read on several thousand people) does not necessarily mean stupid, and if it becomes known the guy in charge is deliberately getting his own troops killed then at best morale will take a massive nose dive. In worse cases we could be looking at an actual mutiny.

Again we're facing an unknown but almost certainly huge number of greenskins and skaven. We do not want to be pissing away troops or facing morale penalites before people take a look at whatever an army of big monsters or whatever twisted monstrosities of mad science the skaven have built.

Actively helping him is such a bad idea I can't believe people are actually voting for it. Quite apart from taking one guy's word for the fact that thousands of his own man have to die, we are a wizard. Wizards are still some of the most mistrusted people in the empire, due to thousands of years of suspicion and fear. Furthermore we are a magister of the grey college, everything we do reflects back on the image of the colleges in general. If we help him and are caught there will be a massive backlash against us and against wizards in general. I wouldn't be surprised if the grey college declared us rogue just to limit the backlash of 'magister tries to get large number of regular troops killed'. Nevermind the fact that we are also a hero of Stirland after the Drakenhoff campaign, if the morale loss from the commander being discovered trying to get people killed would be bad it would be nothing to us being implicated.

And I consider it likely that we will be caught on at least some level. If nothing else I expect the high command to catch on after the first battle, given how good they should be at planning military campaigns. And I really don't want to explain this to them, especially not after we have already started deliberately getting troops killed.

[X] His command, his business. Stay out of it.

[X] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
- [X] Bring Esbern and Seija
[X] Thane Skaroki Grimbrow
[X] Scout the far side of the Snotling city to ensure there's no other surprises waiting to be found.
[X] Test their skills in battle.

I want to focus on that snotling infestation. Scouting it and fighting it are good, should also probably either speak with commander in charge of that operation or test our comrades-in-arms outside of combat before we bring them with us.

Regarding Petrescu - I don't think we need to do anything, but I'm glad that we are aware of his plans. That would be an awkward thing to discover mid-campaign, since we could easily misinterpret it as an out-and-out sabotage.

Andres110 said:

Source?

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Karak Azgal WFRP sourcebook. Basic idea is, that Karak Izril, the City of Jewels has fallen after the fall of Karak Eight Peaks, but the survivors managed to hide the cities considerable (City of Jewels) wealth with runes and such before escaping. The orks and skaven ransacked the place, but found nothing. So the place became Karak Azgal, the Hoard Peak. Later a dragon came squatting, and the dwarves sent many expeditions to reclaim the wealth. It was finally done by Skalf Dragonslayer, who slayed the dragon and found the treasure, but even than he didn't have the dwarfpower to fully reclaim the hold. So the dwarves started up a small town at the entrance and used the tide of gloryhounds and fortune-seekers by selling them licences to get to the ruins, taxing whatever they bring up, and making sure that anything actually important or significant found by humans is confiscated.

It is not a system liked by every dwarf, but it is the closest example I can think of of people looting dwarf Karaks and getting away with it, when there is a significant dawi presence there.

[X] His command, his business. Stay out of it.

[X] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
- [X] Bring Esbern and Seija
[X] Introduce him to the dwarven smiths so he can try to convince them to teach him.
[X] Marshal Titus Muggins

[X] He's got a point. You should help where you can.

[X] His command, his business. Stay out of it.

[x] The Snotlings need to be wiped out so their 'city' can be filled in. Join in the extermination, possibly with a Journeymanling along to see how they fare in battle.
- [x] Bring Esbern and Seija

[X] Thane Skaroki Grimbrow
[X] Master Engineer Durin Wutokri
[X] Grand Master Sigwald Kriegersen
[X] Grand Master Ruprecht Wulfhart

Watch the vagabonds and adventurers he is trying to kill get really high rolls and not only survive but actually push the enemy back.


Codrin Petrescu: "Why won't they die!"

[X] Thane Skaroki Grimbrow

LoganBert34 said:

By reading the update: He believes that most of the Sylvanians and Stilanders could be trusted as they are either people who are trying to make a living after quitting the military (When they could have made trouble elsewhere) and those who are trying to get off the yoke of the Necromancers. Our IC knowledge validates the former, and is in line with the rationale of the latter.

He also openly states that 1/3rd of the others have a similar mentality. The rest though, are people who are motivated by base greed, and he see's them as an inevitable source of problems, especially since dwarfholds hold near legendary amounts of wealth (folk knowledge), and that getting stuff written in the book of grudges will make everyones day worse. As a former militia Major, his opinion is a qualified one.

Of course, as I emphasised in your quote and the update, what you accuse him of being and his motivations are far from the truth. He is not basing his decisions on race, but rather on what he knows are their underlying motivations for joining this quest.

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If you ignore the excuses, bullshit, justifications and rationalization that he gives and get to what he wants to do then you get to the core point. He wants to get men under his command killed. They could be the greediest assholes in existence and it wouldn't justify this kind of bullshit. Worse this seems to be his first reaction, there's no trying to set up military police, or working with the dwarfs to abate his worries. No, he jumps straight to mass murder, this isn't a hard man making hard decisions this is a bad guy making bad decisions.

He gives some crappy justification about how they're all a bunch of thieving hooligans but without any evidence to back it up it seems like some crap he came up with to support his goal. It's why he reminds me of a racist commander who targets men of a certain race, in his case he mostly seems to target those not from Sylvania and Stirland. He's basically decided that thousands of men are preemptively guilty of crimes they haven't committed and now need to die for the greater good.

This guy is practically a stranger and one of the first things he says is he plans to commit mass murder and then tries to tempt us with the obvious lever of dwarf favor. We should be investigating him for corruption and possibly cult connections not trying to support his plans.

Besides a commander who kills his own men is basically bad guy stereotype number 1.

Commander who wants to kill his own men! Seriously, that's totally messed up. I hope no one would even think about considering this acceptable in reality because even in a fictional medium it's totally crazy.

Imagine having your boss decide to plot your death because he doesn't think you're trustworthy, made even worse somehow because it seems to be based primarily on where you came from.

WorldSlayer said:

If you ignore the excuses, bullshit, justifications and rationalization that he gives and get to what he wants to do then you get to the core point. He wants to get men under his command killed. They could be the greediest assholes in existence and it wouldn't justify this kind of bullshit. Worse this seems to be his first reaction, there's no trying to set up military police, or working with the dwarfs to abate his worries. No, he jumps straight to mass murder, this isn't a hard man making hard decisions this is a bad guy making bad decisions.

He gives some crappy justification about how they're all a bunch of thieving hooligans but without any evidence to back it up it seems like some crap he came up with to support his goal. It's why he reminds me of a racist commander who targets men of a certain race, in his case he mostly seems to target those not from Sylvania and Stirland. He's basically decided that thousands of men are preemptively guilty of crimes they haven't committed and now need to die for the greater good.

This guy is practically a stranger and one of the first things he says is he plans to commit mass murder and then tries to tempt us with the obvious lever of dwarf favor. We should be investigating him for corruption and possibly cult connections not trying to support his plans.

Besides a commander who kills his own men is basically bad guy stereotype number 1.

Commander who wants to kill his own men! Seriously, that's totally messed up. I hope no one would even think about considering this acceptable in reality because even in a fictional medium it's totally crazy.

Imagine having your boss decide to plot your death because he doesn't think you're trustworthy, made even worse somehow because it seems to be based primarily on where you came from.

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.....
Except as people have repeatedly mentioned. Most members of medieval armies act exactly the way he is concerned these men will act.

aka loot everything that isn't nailed down.

Have you read about the aftermath of battles, any battle, that took place from the birth of civilization to the Napoleonic Wars?

The winning army after battle (and sometimes during it) tended to dissolve into Locust like swarms of looters, rapists and murderers. Sometimes it caused battles to be lost, because a detachment of enemy forces came upon the looters that were out of formation and slaughtered them which triggered a rout.

Military commanders typically allowed it to happen because they had claim on a percentage of the loot, they didn't give a crap about what happened to the non-combatants and that they did not have the number of disciplined forces still under their command that could stop it.

Now, take that knowledge and add the fact that Dwarves are extremely prickly about their property, are outnumbered by the human forces and already distrust humans in general.

It's.....not a good mix. I am in favor of Cordin's action. And Mathilde is a member of the Gray College, aka the "do dirty deeds so Empire can survive another day" mentality.

It's very blatantly stated by Codrin, but people will die in war, many thousands will die in this one. Some people will die before others do- say those in the vanguard, in the heaviest fighting, or attempting to holding an overmatched flank. Every commander has to choose who to assign to these duties, and who gets to be in the reserve.