Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[X] Yes. Don't be unrealistic. The paper communicates the concept and construction of Mathilde's Mystical Matrix without inducing unconsciousness or migraines. That's a win. Take the win.

So, random question about WHF magic:

Imperial wizards only use one magic. But clearly they are CAPABLE of using multiple (but they go crazy in the process - Dhar, not even once).

So how are the initiates allocated between the colleges?

Do they have a proclivity to a certain wind when they're picked up? Are they allocated based on mundane tests of personality? Or are they simply split into 8 semi-randomly, and their proclivities arise due to nurture?

Oksbad said:

So how are the initiates allocated between the colleges?

Do they have a proclivity to a certain wind when they're picked up? Are they allocated based on mundane tests of personality? Or are they simply split into 8 semi-randomly, and their proclivities arise due to nurture?

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Mostly the first one, I believe. In essence, the kid who likes looking at fires for long times and burning things usually goes to the Bright College if he has magic.

[X] No. Mathilde's Mystical Matrix is worthy of a paper of sublime profundity, that communicates the earthshaking possibilities of the spell with elegance.
[X][Action] Plan Pressing Onwards

Two score cannon is in fact fourty cannons, so everyone who was (once again) impressed at the thought of Anton securing twenty, can now be doubly so.

Either he's the most likeable ingenu in the Empire, or the most devious manipulator. No middle ground remains.

Seventeen said:

Functionally the same. In any case, you've only asserted that nebulous risks will increase with no justification. I don't know how that's supposed to be convincing.

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The Watch's budget is subject to more oversight.
And to clarify, it's not a dealbreaker. It's a caution. Same as how we want to make sure we know how the EIC works before trafficking information to it is a caution.
The dealbreaker is Van Hal's instruction not to stress Stirland's primary budget until he's at least finished with the Purge. The Watch is paid out of Stirland's primary budget.

Dumping it on the Watch as a black budget is not going to leave him amused, unless we make the Watch cash positive first.

[X] Yes. Don't be unrealistic. The paper communicates the concept and construction of Mathilde's Mystical Matrix without inducing unconsciousness or migraines. That's a win. Take the win.

I'm taking this as a academic challenge as a reader for context.

DarkLight140 said:

I don't see why we should keep pouring actions into this paper when it's not teaching us anything new at all. There is a lot of ulgu to study and we're wasting our time on rehashing stuff we already know? Why would we bother? If we want to spend even more actions writing up academic papers, then study magic until we've learned something else exciting and new and write a second paper about that. Sticking with this one when it's already done is obsessive dithering that achieves nothing worthwhile.

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Its quite simple really. This paper has taken up 3 actions... normal turns are 6 months long more of that has been 2 month turns. In short this paper has resulted in +2 Learning for the cost of half the actions for one turn. That is pretty good return and that doesn't even include the political benefits of being known for writing a well known and well liked paper. That said its best to leave the paper alone for now and go do something less trying... like fighting armies of the undead. Fight those for a while and then come back to the paper when she is sick of fighting. There isn't a due date. Finish it off as one of the personal actions once 6 month turns are back.

More importantly, the giving up on the paper option is may add +1 all stars (except learning) but it'll make her prone to ending action chains early and influence the hell out of future options if they are too annoying. Probably would mean that she'd have given up on seeking out lab parts until the Wizard Chic fad wore out.
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As for 'Why the Hell would you want to perfect the paper in the first place?' its simple. Once she has the style down future papers benefit from the lessons learned writing this paper. Also, this is a paper that made her learn Trigonometry just to explain what this matrix looks like. The natural extension of this spell matrix combined with enchanting is what in D&D is a ring of spell storing. Cast a mid grade spell when the Winds of Magic are bothering to be useful pull it out of nowhere when Ulgu is crap. Great sword of spell storing uses dawn to Burning shadows all the things out nowhere.

The better the preliminary work the less work later.
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This is in theory a CK2 Quest. That means inheritors to the job/apprentices have to learn this stuff later. The better the documentation the less hard it is to learn this on the next character. Like the papers you can write in CK2 for the Hermetic Order secret society. Once your Learning is high enough BAM lots of stat points.
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Speaking of future books... remember that banking concepts are what confused Weber to incomprehension. Set up a habit of demystifying stuff that annoys you and near free stat points. Also, learning to explain complex stuff coherently is a live skill that makes people like and respect you. Diplomacy boon that is.

The steps to this thesis paper so far have been: Collect data>Organize Data>Make is Readable. This means what needs to happen next is having someone else read it as an editor/reader. It should be something that you can learn from once you know Trig and Ulgu. Run it past some people and ask where it needs work. What is too trite and what concepts are unknowns to others.

Also, ciphering it so its disguised as a history of cheese wheel carrying device or something, because grey wizards.
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Well that or save it for when the siege drags on like sieges too.

Derpmind said:

[X] Plan Singing King Hunt + Enchantment
-[X][Intel] Gossipmongers: Julia's previous attempt had no result but the enrichment of various hangers-on of the Flensburg courts. Perhaps this was just poor luck; perhaps she should try again. (NEW-ish)
-[X][Watch] In Wissenland, there are a number of techniques in use to derive saltpeter from urine. It would take a great deal more effort than selling to tanneries, but saltpeter could be exported to Nuln for fantastic profit, or used to start gunpowder production in Stirland.
-[X][Personal] Attach yourself to the army so you can join the hunt for the Singing King (specify which regiment to join, or general staff to avoid the thick of the fighting). (NEW-ish)
--[X] General Staff
--[X] Ranald's Blessing
-[X][Personal] Enchantment: You've finally got the equipment, now you've just got to unpack it all and set up your laboratory.

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Changed the army atachment to be with the general staff. Will change back if people ask for it.

veekie said:

The Watch's budget is subject to more oversight.
And to clarify, it's not a dealbreaker. It's a caution. Same as how we want to make sure we know how the EIC works before trafficking information to it is a caution.
The dealbreaker is Van Hal's instruction not to stress Stirland's primary budget until he's at least finished with the Purge. The Watch is paid out of Stirland's primary budget.

Dumping it on the Watch as a black budget is not going to leave him amused, unless we make the Watch cash positive first.

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See, that's a hell of a lot more reasonable than how you've put it previously. I still don't agree that oversight on the Watch's budget is going to affect the Information Network considering it's unlikely to be more than a note like '-200g to <official sounding name>" on their books, but I can work with it if it's more about the timing of things.

We want to make a lot of money to cover it, but I don't think we're ever going to make the Watch a net positive on the budget. If you count externalities like reduction in crime and violence, that's a maybe, but on pure cash terms I just don't think we're going to get there without resorting to means we don't want to.

[X] Yes. Don't be unrealistic. The paper communicates the concept and construction of Mathilde's Mystical Matrix without inducing unconsciousness or migraines. That's a win. Take the win.

[X] Plan Compromise For No Votes
-[X] Gossipmongers: Julia's previous attempt had no result but the enrichment of various hangers-on of the Flensburg courts. Perhaps this was just poor luck; perhaps she should try again.
-[X] In Wissenland, there are a number of techniques in use to derive saltpeter from urine. It would take a great deal more effort than selling to tanneries, but saltpeter could be exported to Nuln for fantastic profit, or used to start gunpowder production in Stirland.
-[X] Diggy Diggy Hole, Remixed: You're getting sick of having workmen tramping in and out of your abode. Recruit an entire team and personally oversee them to clear out all of the reachable portions of the Palace-Shrine and be done with it. (-personal gold)
--[X] Ranald's Blessing
-[X] Enchantment: You've finally got the equipment, now you've just got to unpack it all and set up your laboratory.

I'm not a fan of Gossipmongers. I don't like that we started selling information at all, in fact. But if it's going to make taking Special Branch more palatable, I'm happy to push it back a while until we've built up the Watch's income stream.

Actually I think maybe what we should do is not sibmit the paper, but not take actions on it - Let Mathilde come to it with a fresh mind later.

[X] No. Mathilde's Mystical Matrix is worthy of a paper of sublime profundity, that communicates the earthshaking possibilities of the spell with elegance.

Seventeen said:

See, that's a hell of a lot more reasonable than how you've put it previously. I still don't agree that oversight on the Watch's budget is going to affect the Information Network considering it's unlikely to be more than a note like '-200g to <official sounding name>" on their books, but I can work with it if it's more about the timing of things.

We want to make a lot of money to cover it, but I don't think we're ever going to make the Watch a net positive on the budget. If you count externalities like reduction in crime and violence, that's a maybe, but on pure cash terms I just don't think we're going to get there without resorting to means we don't want to.

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Well, I try my best to keep arguments as Informative rather than Prescriptive. Its not always effective due to the writer/reader gap and degrades a lot if posting while grumpy.

Oversight on the Watch Budget is an issue because unlike our current Black Budget handling of the intelligence network, the growth of the network is not reflected anywhere outside the network since its still taking the same amount of money from the crown for an indefinite period.
It means that when we expand our informants into a new region, we'd be looking at a proportionate increase in the Watch Budget under the Special Unit. Which is informative in that a rival spymaster can link that to new people spending beyond their means and map agent penetration.
Its one of the very things we use to identify foreign spies actually, but with half the picture it's very hard to nail down much.
You can mask it by staggering the accounting or even oscillating it randomly, but that generates room for corruption and requires someone with good Stewardship to oversee it(Julia alas, is not good at Stewardship).

It's a risk to be accepted, like we accept that expanding the gossip network will decrease political stability by making scandals spread faster.

However, I think you're grossly underestimating the power of the human waste industry, especially invested into Saltpeter production. That can easily pay for the entire Watch and then the intelligence network to boot.
The drawback is that the Watch veterans will be unhappy about it, because while profitable, it's not glamorous. We'd need to take that money and funnel it back in as Training costs.

Looks like all of the non-project votes have settled on Gossipmongers, Saltpetre Production, and Enchantment Lab Setup. There's still time for them to switch around on the last action, which is currently joining the hunt for the Singing Ghoul King.

Continuing the project is basically out of the race.

Derpmind said:

Changed the army atachment to be with the general staff. Will change back if people ask for it.

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With that change I find this vote much more palatable. With a Martial of 12 (+5 for 17 with shadowsteed), magical ability (and knowledge) and the ability to move about quickly with the shadowsteed I expect we could be somewhat helpful or at least not get in the way.

[X] Plan Singing King Hunt + Enchantment
[X] No. Mathilde's Mystical Matrix is worthy of a paper of sublime profundity, that communicates the earthshaking possibilities of the spell with elegance.

Shard said:

Actually I think maybe what we should do is not sibmit the paper, but not take actions on it - Let Mathilde come to it with a fresh mind later.

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This is I believe the general consensus for those who are choosing not to immediately publish. Since the paper is already done and there's no due date we're going to sit on it in case we come up with an idea that can improve it. While I can't speak for anyone else this is certainly something I've done with my own work, if I complete it before the due date I would sit on it in case I came up with a new idea or alternatively to be able to read it later with a set of fresh eyes so I would be able to proof read it more effectively.

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On an unrelated note our current orders are a bit old but are basically to prepare for the fight and to use the information network as we see best.

Van Hal said:

"Then for the next six months, I task you with preparing yourself. Consider what we may face, and arm yourself accordingly - with weapons, with knowledge, and with magic."

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So I've grabbed the list that Exmorri made of actions that we've done over the last 3 turns. If we include the organizational actions in the list then the actions that can be considered training for the war or improving the watch consist of 7/7 actions for turn 11, 4/7 actions for turn 12 and 4/8 actions for turn 13. This means that 15/22 or nearly 70% of our actions have been spent following Van Hal's orders.

The expected number of actions to be spent following Van Hal's orders is from 2/6 actions to 4/6 actions. Basically 33-66% is expected and we're at 68%.

Turn 11 said:
Turn '12' AKA Purge 1-3 said:
Turn '13' AKA Purge 4-6 said:

Anyone want to explain the logic behind throwing more money at gossip-mongering when we're already strapped for cash and just suffered a horrific failure on it? There's a lot of assumptions in just trying it again that may end up costing us money we can't afford to lose. While I don't want to think Julia's pocketing the money, it's more than likely she's unsuitable for hiring people with her low diplomacy. Or that someone took advantage of her low diplomacy to block it.

[X] No. Mathilde's Mystical Matrix is worthy of a paper of sublime profundity, that communicates the earthshaking possibilities of the spell with elegance.

I've been swayed by the discussion about pragmatism. While the trait is good, traits are more than just their mechanical benefits. It seems like it would set the tone for future magic research.

Kairos123 said:

Anyone want to explain the logic behind throwing more money at gossip-mongering when we're already strapped for cash and just suffered a horrific failure on it? There's a lot of assumptions in just trying it again that may end up costing us money we can't afford to lose. While I don't want to think Julia's pocketing the money, it's more than likely she's unsuitable for hiring people with her low diplomacy. Or that someone took advantage of her low diplomacy to block it.

[X] No. Mathilde's Mystical Matrix is worthy of a paper of sublime profundity, that communicates the earthshaking possibilities of the spell with elegance.

I've been swayed by the discussion about pragmatism. While the trait is good, traits are more than just their mechanical benefits. It seems like it would set the tone for future magic research.

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Agree about the gossips.

But what's wrong with pragmatic magical research? It seems that's how the colleges were founded by Teclis- teach the humans dumbed down Elven words and to use a stripped-down version of a single colour wind, like Elven mage children learn, then throw them into the fight against Chaos.

If nothing else, I'm quite interested in what the results of the pragmatic research would be. Mathilde is already quite pragmatic, about say torture and mind-altering magic when it gets the job done. Where does this journey lead?

DarkLight140 said:

I'm all in favor of learning more about magic, but that should really be done by choosing an action which involves doing more magic instead of an action that amounts to meditating on the nature of the Grey Wind. We have a lot of those! Learn a new shadow spell. Nail down how enchantment works. Poke our Qhaysh Juice. Hell, write-in an action to actually learn something new about our spell matrix by trying to extend it to new spell categories or have multiple distinct alarm spells so that we can tell which one went off or similar instead of endlessly mentally rehashing what we already know about it.

This action appears to be, basically, "make a single learning roll and if you crit you get a trait", just like the last one. Which is nice and all, but we can go crit-fishing on all kinds of actions that don't have an expected result of absolutely nothing in a non-crit scenario.

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If we want to do more magic research in the future, we should maybe not pick up a trait that says our MC hates the process of publishing it.
At least carry on to the point where she feels doesn't feel like she had her teeth pulled out in return for a mediocre product.

Omegahugger said:

If we want to do more magic research in the future, we should maybe not pick up a trait that says our MC hates the process of publishing it.
At least carry on to the point where she feels doesn't feel like she had her teeth pulled out in return for a mediocre product.

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Basically yeah. Pragmatist is outright saying she hates academic curiosity now

If Mathilde doesn't see proper payoff for the project after so much time spent on it, she'll be turned off from doing any more big projects in the future.

Studying hard is a waste of time.

That's the lesson she'll take away from this. That means she's not going to excel and grow to her full potential.

For the love of all that's good don't vote for the pragmatic trait.

HanEmpire said:

If Mathilde doesn't see proper payoff for the project after so much time spent on it, she'll be turned off from doing any more big projects in the future.

Studying hard is a waste of time.

That's the lesson she'll take away from this. That means she's not going to excel and grow to her full potential.

For the love of all that's good don't vote for the pragmatic trait.

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Why is it so bad for a Spymaster to have Practical? This isn't CK2 Wizard Quest, it's CK2 Adviser Quest. If Mathilde stops being Spymaster, well, at minimum there is a great shift in how th game runs, if it continues at all.

I mean, several regular posters are very worried about it, so am I missing something?

(Edited as the trait is Practical, not Pragmatic)

veekie said:

Basically yeah. Pragmatist is outright saying she hates academic curiosity now

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No, it's not. Please stop warping things like this.

Alliterate said:

But what's wrong with pragmatic magical research?

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While I think the others are overblowing how detrimental it would be, that's pretty much it. It's a trait that makes her dislike parts of scholarship. You can argue it won't have an overwhelming effect, and you'd be correct. But from what I can tell, it'd still have an effect. Basically, I don't want her to dislike the process when she's in for so much of it.

It's personal preference. Trust me, I'm just as done with the paper as I imagine you are. Don't care about any notion of giving up or needing to complete it. It all comes down to me liking that Mathilde is a giant nerd, and not wanting to alter that. And it would be altered by this, however slightly. Just reading the trait is enough to tell you how it changes her focus.

HanEmpire said:

For the love of all that's good don't vote for the pragmatic trait.

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Alliterate said:

Why is it so bad for a Spymaster to have Pragmatic? This isn't CK2 Wizard Quest, it's CK2 Adviser Quest. If Mathilde stops being Spymaster, well, at minimum there is a great shift in how th game runs, if it continues at all.

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It's practical, not pragmatic. Don't know if that was an edited change or we both made the same mistake thinking it was called pragmatic.

The implications of practical are a focus away from theoretical towards what is applicable.

HanEmpire said:

If Mathilde doesn't see proper payoff for the project after so much time spent on it, she'll be turned off from doing any more big projects in the future.

Studying hard is a waste of time.

That's the lesson she'll take away from this. That means she's not going to excel and grow to her full potential.

For the love of all that's good don't vote for the pragmatic trait.

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The trait is Practical, not Pragmatic. I got them confused too. It could easily be read in the 'in Theory or in Practise' sense. Learn by doing.

Kairos123 said:

While I think the others are overblowing how detrimental it would be, that's pretty much it. It's a trait that makes her dislike parts of scholarship. You can argue it won't have an overwhelming effect, and you'd be correct. But from what I can tell, it'd still have an effect. Basically, I don't want her to dislike the process when she's in for so much of it.

It's personal preference. Trust me, I'm just as done with the paper as I imagine you are. Don't care about any notion of giving up or needing to complete it. It all comes down to me liking that Mathilde is a giant nerd, and not wanting to alter that. And it would be altered by this, however slightly. Just reading the trait is enough to tell you how it changes her focus.


It's practical, not pragmatic. Don't know if that was an edited change or we both made the same mistake thinking it was called pragmatic.

The implications of practical are a focus away from theoretical towards what is applicable.

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Thanks. But... it could get worse. Obsessive. Tunnel Vision. Impractical. And making Mathilde spend more time on it... well, I think I outlined my concerns there.

Exmorri said:

No, it's not. Please stop warping things like this.

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It literally says on the trait she'd rather do anything else. Anything at all.