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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Coda said:
It appears more that the Orange Light is inherently capitalist (expend personal power for personal gain) than any statement of the author's own opinions. In fact, the SI's inability to handle fiat currency early in the fic suggests that it's not "pretty clearly be a capitalist" at all.

(EDIT: Not to say that it's a sign that he's NOT capitalist, either, but rather that it's more nuanced than a simple label.)
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Perhaps in this particular story the orange light is inherently capitalist, but I wouldn't say self-interest (which the orange light represents) is inherently capitalist. Support for capitalism is only in line with your self-interest if you believe you'll be one of the elite; one reason capitalism is so popular is that it is very, VERY good at getting people to believe they will one day be rich themselves, and that they just haven't made it yet, when in reality it mostly comes down to luck and circumstance. And even then, capitalism is only inherently better from a self-interested perspective if you value being better off THAN others more than you value simply being better off.

And even ignoring DIRECT benefit to you, everyone else being better off still benefits you in a self-interested way, as it results in more people having the freedom to create art (some of which you will probably appreciate), advance science, etc, all of which you can benefit from even in absence of compassion.
 
Coda said:
So you're telling me less than 20% of Americans actually volunteer instead of just believing that volunteerism is a good thing... and that's support for your claim?
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What would support for a significant degree of the population believing in volunteering and altruism look like then? That's how many people have the time and energy to volunteer, add to that everyone who isn't able to volunteer for whatever reason, and the number of people who believe in volunteering or altruism would certainly grow.
 
I'm not sure what part of America you live in, but I've met a lot of folks who believe in rugged individualism and disdain handouts. That America has for years been dependent on one mans volunteer work to counter serious super threats runs entirely counter to the American ideas of pulling yourself up by the boot straps or letting the free market handle it. It's sort of like finding out a population segment against any and all social programs are themselves utterly dependent on social programs.
 
random_npc said:
I'm not sure what part of America you live in, but I've met a lot of folks who believe in rugged individualism and disdain handouts. That America has for years been dependent on one mans volunteer work to counter serious super threats runs entirely counter to the American ideas of pulling yourself up by the boot straps or letting the free market handle it. It's sort of like finding out a population segment against any and all social programs are themselves utterly dependent on social programs.
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The government isn't forcing Superman to defend America, so no. It's Superman's decision to volunteer. Not the government's. He's a one man militia.
 
One man? Well that's a good way to thank the Flash for all his hard work. Or the Green Lanterns, Orange Lantern now, Batman, Wonder Woman, or all the other superheroes who aren't a member of the Justice League.
 
Science said:
Like volunteer firemen, or volunteer militias during the Revolutionary War.

In Red Son, Superman is a communist villain and Lex Luthor the hero.
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I'm really not seeing your point here. I'm not saying volunteers don't exist, but as is America is 90% reliant on a small group of people giving according to their abilities based on then needs of the masses. there is no other attentive to deal with super villains than hope a super hero does it. That's not the same as accepting volunteers, because if volunteer firemen stopped being a thing there would still be a fire department. the difference is that America s reliant on uncompensated volunteers rather than simply accepting help.
 
random_npc said:
I'm not sure what part of America you live in, but I've met a lot of folks who believe in rugged individualism and disdain handouts. That America has for years been dependent on one mans volunteer work to counter serious super threats runs entirely counter to the American ideas of pulling yourself up by the boot straps or letting the free market handle it. It's sort of like finding out a population segment against any and all social programs are themselves utterly dependent on social programs.
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That's kind of the point though. The people I know who despise handouts still think well of volunteer work... as long as they aren't the ones relying on the handout themselves.

In my experience alone, those people would be all for superman, until he saved them from something they wanted to fight on their own.
 
lefthandturnsign said:
That's kind of the point though. The people I know who despise handouts still think well of volunteer work... as long as they aren't the ones relying on the handout themselves.

In my experience alone, those people would be all for superman, until he saved them from something they wanted to fight on their own.
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Mmm.... to me, I'd say it'd be more until what he does starts imposing on their own options / choices. For example, a new superhero tax to pay all those people off superheroing.
 
FYI, this is the start of exactly the kind of discussion that draws the mods' attention. Yes, we're superficially tying the discussion to the story at the moment, but that won't last for any significant length of time, and it is indeed a superficial connection.
 
Empiricist2 said:
FYI, this is the start of exactly the kind of discussion that draws the mods' attention. Yes, we're superficially tying the discussion to the story at the moment, but that won't last for any significant length of time, and it is indeed a superficial connection.
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Ah~~~ But I wanted to eventually use Boku no Hero Academia and Ratman as examples of settings were heroes are properly compensated for their works, but the celebrity problem that also crops up in those sorts of stories.
 
random_npc said:
I'm really not seeing your point here. I'm not saying volunteers don't exist, but as is America is 90% reliant on a small group of people giving according to their abilities based on then needs of the masses. there is no other attentive to deal with super villains than hope a super hero does it. That's not the same as accepting volunteers, because if volunteer firemen stopped being a thing there would still be a fire department. the difference is that America s reliant on uncompensated volunteers rather than simply accepting help.
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Because Zoat didn't want to bother adding the groups that show humanity isn't totally reliant on metahumans.

In DC they added a new branch of the military- The Human Defense Corps, it invaded Hell. And conquered a portion of it. One of the HDC members is now a ruler of Hell and a member of the armed forces. :)

The Metropolitan Special Crimes Unit was so successful it grew into an interplanetary police force by the 30th century.

There are of course more government projects to make their own supers than one can shake a stick at.

But all he's included in this story is the DEO and SHADE and hinting Suicide Squad, which is his prerogative of course.
 
OL did interact with the Special Crimes Unit though. I believe he offered them some freeze rays?
 
stsword said:
Metropolitan Special Crimes Unit
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Don't forget the one in Washington, DC.

When I was working on Compassion's Light, and creating what I thought was a more sensible DC Universe, I had an SCU branch in most major cities. It just makes sense, and while Hawk and Dove was alright at best, I really liked how they had an SCU branch outside of Metropolis.

EDIT: Also, I like how ComicVine doesn't give Captain Arsala an Attractive Male power like they do for most comics characters. No love for the mullet?
 
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random_npc said:
I'm really not seeing your point here. I'm not saying volunteers don't exist, but as is America is 90% reliant on a small group of people giving according to their abilities based on then needs of the masses.
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That would be the Justice Lords, and Red Son, continuities. In here, they do the barr minimum required to keep their corner of the world going, and then leave everything else to the local authorities. They hardly min-max their assitance like Paul, or the Justice Lords.
random_npc said:
there is no other attentive to deal with super villains than hope a super hero does it. That's not the same as accepting volunteers, because if volunteer firemen stopped being a thing there would still be a fire department. the difference is that America s reliant on uncompensated volunteers rather than simply accepting help.
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America is reliant on the personal initiative of private citizens to keep it safe. If volunteers disappeared, a lot of people daved by the Cajun Navy would've died. Same with if charity disappeared. Someone else would rise to fill the boits if Superman didn't. Lastly, Batman's superpower is money.
 
Queshire said:
OL did interact with the Special Crimes Unit though. I believe he offered them some freeze rays?
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Plasma guns he made from flying robot monkeys.

Grayven gave the police a sniper rifle that could see and shoot through walls.

EDIT: Also OL handed out some more sophisticated weapons more recently, we saw them used in the takedown of Papa Midnite.

EDIT 2: Found the scene. It was plasma repeaters.

Mr Zoat said:
There's a bang on the open door of the van behind us. We turn to see a fully armoured up Agent Bell looking at us. "You kids ready to go?"

"Are you?"

She flicks a switch on her shiny new plasma repeater, the gun humming as it feeds fuel into the plasma bottle. "I'd say so."

<snip>

The SWAT officers activate their plasma repeaters and form up into fire teams as their corporals signal their readiness.

<snip>

"Agent, if you wish to question me, could you not do so in my office? I don't think-."

"Warning: Spell Eater temperature increasing."

There's a flash of blue as Agent Bell shoots him in the chest with her plasma repeater. Its low lethality mode is a sort of static electrical beanbag round, but it still hits hard enough to knock the target off his feet.

"You have the right to speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning." She walks forward, standing over him with her gun pointed downwards. If she fires then he's getting some nasty internal burns as well as broken ribs. "If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense. Lantern?"

I walk forwards, preparing the suppression chains as Agent Bell permits herself a thin smile. "You're not getting out of this one, you bastard."
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The philosophy was interesting, but you don't really need to read ancient texts to follow the conversation.

Mr Zoat said:
if none of us feel like joining the police force but insist on saying that police are important to law enforcement…"
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This line pretty much sums a lot of it up. They talk about their ideals a lot, but their actions don't actually line up to what they claim to believe in. They're too busy fulfilling superhero cliches to actually have a consistent system of ethics.
 
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Alienated (part 19)
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    • 13th October
    15:03 GMT -5

    I push open the door to Sephtian's New York workshop. "Professor? Any-"

    The Pomegranate of Good and Evil is sitting in a large and.. slightly frightening resonance array, and those parts of the computer screens and electronic blackboards around it that I can see through the crowds of Atlanteans are covered in what looks like… Alright, it looks like total scrawl to me, but I'm sure that it's all very clever.

    "-progress?"

    Sephtian worms through the crowd of his colleagues, right hand raised to draw my attention. Last time something like this happened I transitioned him out, and got a thorough telling off for using pseudo-arcane devices in a controlled laboratory. This time I just wait patiently until he has managed to free himself.

    "Some."

    "Can you.. be more precise?"

    "Yes. Essentially-" He turns towards the centre of the.. Device. "-that is not a normal fruit."

    I smile uncertainly. "Yes?"

    "In.. point of fact I am uncertain that it is a fruit at all. Are you familiar with the use of…" He trails off, looking me over and weighing up my probable knowledge base. "Concept reinforcement?"

    "Yes, I sometimes eat at a vodun restaurant where they enhance the food with the idea of the food. Is that what you-?"

    "Ah! Yes, just so. I will have to try-." He closes his eyes for a moment, and glowing lines appear over his scalp. Some of those I actually recognise. "It is far easier to-."

    "Sephtian, that was an alertness and mental acuity spell. How much sleep have you been getting?"

    "My king and country are threatened by Demons. I will sleep once Ms Blaze is ready to defend them." I'm not sure that's.. sensible, but I'm hardly one to talk. "It is far easier to reinforce the strongest characteristics of the thing, and hard to act against those characteristics without destroying the object. For example, I could make an.. iron sword that was far harder and more resilient than an iron sword could normally be, but it would be difficult to make one that was bendy or capable of changing colour. Iron does not bend well, and has a narrow range of colours."

    "With you so far. So was.. this pomegranate reinforced with the essence of fruit? Super-antioxidants?"

    "No, no. That was my original thought, but… No. I do not believe that the tree this fruit grew from began as a seed. The Christians believe that it was created by their god directly?"

    "Something like that." I blink. "Wait; was it?"

    Half a dozen Atlanteans pull their attention away from what they're working on. "No!"

    Sephtian makes a dismissive gesture. "Perhaps. It is impossible to rule out that sort of intervention somewhere, but we are beginning to grasp the process by which it could have happened. Do you know how old the Earth is?"

    "Somewhere between four and five billion years, based on isotope decay in rocks."

    "I am told that following the chronology of monotheist holy books, the age of the Earth is revealed to be something in the order of seven thousand years. How would you account for the difference?"

    "I wouldn't. I would assume that the chronology was bunk, a mismatch of patently false legend and half-remembered history."

    "And yet you have been to the Garden of Eden. Do you not now wish to reconsider?"

    "No. I saw a forest and a magic bloke with wings. The fact that it matches a creation myth doesn't prove anything. I've met Hera and I don't believe that the Titans created the universe."

    "So where did the Garden come from? And why could you still see where the fruit Adam and Eve ate came from? Any normal tree would have either continued to grow or died, and in either case there would have been nothing left to see."

    He walks towards the centre of the room, gazing at the fruit.

    "I assumed that parts of the garden were in some sort of magic.. suspended animation, only changing if acted on externally. Or maybe just the trees. Why? What do you think was going on?"

    "Understand… Any evidence we could collect in the face of a truly omnipotent being could simply be fabricated. And any evidence gathered in the face of an immensely powerful and skilful being is at least suspect."

    "Okay..? What's that got to do with concept reinforcement?"

    "This fruit is a fruit. Every magic I use upon it to directly understand its nature shows it to be a fruit. But as I look deeper… It does not have certain associations which a normal fruit would. And there are associations which are strange to see in a fruit."

    "Like what?"

    "Soul-impacting traits which we.. think would have the desired effect on Ms Blaze. Fruit have little to do with moral development in conventional situations. But more than that, there is a faint trace of the Dreaming upon it."

    "Seven thousand years' worth of stories and three major world religions, centred around an inherently arcane location. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some-."

    "That… That could cause it. But our calculations show that other possibilities are far more likely."

    "Does the doorway I passed through lead to the Dreaming? Is that where the Garden actually is? There's a portal in Erebos, but I didn't have any reason to look at it."

    "Possibly. Or perhaps it was brought into the world from the Dreaming. A manifestation of the idea of Eden becoming the reality of Eden."

    "Is that just your favourite theory, or is it actually the most likely one?"

    "My favourite. Are you certain they will not let us study it directly?"

    "They wouldn't agree to it. Is there a great need to force the issue?"

    "Perhaps-? No. Truly, no. Not so far as this task is concerned. It is just that it is possible, and it is such a fascinating application of Dreaming magic. With the Dreaming itself becoming more stable in the last few decades, this fruit may open an entirely new field of study."

    "But back to the matter at hand..?"

    "The Dreaming magic is too poorly studied in cases like this for us to attempt the transformation synthetically. The only thing for Ms Blaze to do is to decide whether or not she wishes to eat the fruit."

    "Will it kill her?"

    "I do not think so, but I have not studied her for long enough to say for certain. If she agrees, I will prepare the wings for chirurgery."

    "You're sure you know how to do that?"

    "Attaching the wings is simple. I do not know enough about theurgy to know how attaching wings to a humanoid body could allow them to fly, but I assume that it is an innate magic that I would need to study directly to understand. The Angel blood has some interesting alchemical and biological properties, but I do not believe that it will present a problem."

    "I'll let her know. How long will you need to prepare?"
     
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    • Mr Zoat said:
    "Will it kill her?"

    "I do not think so, but I have not studied her for long enough to say for certain.
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    "Doctor, will this surgery kill me?"

    "Probably not? I could give you a much better answer if I knew what humans look like once you cut them open, but that's what we're doing this for. Don't worry: if you die, it's in the name of science."

    "I- I need an adult."

    "I am an adult."
     
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