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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Krazyfan1 said:
which is why someone who is supported by the KKK and LITERAL Nazi's and has committed actual treason, is becoming president :facepalm:
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Trump disavowed the (hypothetical) endorsements by David Duke twice in about six months, and the one from the KKK*. Which they only made less than a month before the election. After the mainstream media and anti-Trump public had spent over a year trying desperately to tie him to white supremacists. How much effect do you think that had at that point?

And has it occurred to you that the racists are trying to ride the Trump train back into the spotlight because of all the literal free press they got? I think there was even a NYTimes article about how many of them are rebranding; dropping the traditional symbol and showing they have families too. In other words, that they're people, too. I even saw some people on tumblr claiming that the Times was racist for reporting on it and "humanizing" them, even though the reporter clearly wasn't buying it.

A quick Google indicates that the 'treason' is...praising Putin for not retaliating against America for Obama's actions. Oh no, how...horrible? The problem with things like this is the sheer amount of crying "wolf" we've seen over the past year and change. Jumping straight to the most hyperbolic interpretation of Trump's actions makes anti-Trump folks looks alarmist and not-credible, desperate to smear him with anything. Again.

Also, after winning, he explicitly told anyone who would harm anyone in his name to "stop". No BS, no equivocation, no soft-pedalling it. "Stop".
 
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Jack Stargazer said:
Y'know, it's funny.

The Paragon is more buddy buddy with Republican senator Knight.

The Renegade is more buddy buddy with the Democrat President Horne.

That's not how I'd have predicted that to go.
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I know. Also, SI Horne and Knight have quite a good working relationship. Knight getting the SI's help with the magic thing made Horne's job far easier, except that without the publicity boost and with Knight already having eaten humble pie about his stupid 'ban magic' idea Horne is in a far weaker position.
 
Rift120 said:
Of course this sort of emotional take charge counter action plays VERY well with the American public so he probably will get away with it. Especially since the natural narrative among the public for any delays or blocking shenagians would be "You want to oppose making SHADE illegal? What are you one of their flunkies or approve of them trying to replace the POTUS????"

And heaven help any opposition if robot dopplegangers are discovered elsewhere in senate. house, or high end appointees.

just take how Rove used 9-11 against any opposition for the first year as a good template for how this si going to play out int he halls of congress. now longer term politcally is much more questionable, but short term its pretty much a neigh unstoppable politcal PR juggernaught
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honesty? as an AUSTRALIAN used to pollies lieing their asses off, with cheery-fake smiles whenever they're on TV/the net? seeing something that GENUINE, that passionate/emotionally charged would get MY attention, and ive had a few rather bleakly cynical ramble-episodes about much i wish we didn't NEED politicians!
 
Mr Zoat said:
Because he just got kidnapped by a supervillain federal agent, basically.
Whether this is successful or not, in a few days he's going to look back on this and say 'Dear Lord, what was I thinking?'.
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Mr Zoat said:
He isn't. I'll correct it.
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Change it back, because it makes the speech flow better, and expecting minute precision when the guy is acting on impulse and out is normal character is a bit much.

Rift120 said:
He just came from a kidnapping where he was being set up to be replaced by a robot and then likely killed. I'm pretty sure the american public is going to give him a pass on forgetting some of the legal niceitys of things, ESPECIALLY since it was a federal organization that did the kidnapping.
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The executive branch of the Government has quite a lot of power on its own. And this organisation would be part of the executive. And since it went to such troubles to remove itself from the chain of command, it has no legally recognized director, so he could just appoint a director/interim director of Shade for de jure purposes and have them order all shade members, or declare SHADE a Terrorist Organisation (what with the act of terrorism and literal treason) and all members brought in for questioning. You don't need the judicial branch to run a criminal investigation, that can come later in the criminal process.

Rift120 said:
just take how Rove used 9-11 against any opposition for the first year as a good template for how this is going to play out int he halls of congress. now longer term politically is much more questionable, but short term its pretty much a neigh unstoppable political PR juggernaut
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The long term prospects are actually really good. Remember they were investigating SHADE before Robogate™ and found some worrying stuff, like some agents of shade not even knowing it, and thinking it was a paperwork issue, the lack of legislative oversight or fiscal accountability, and the fact that the freaking POTUS had who was ultimately in charge, but it sure as hell was not him, the democratically elected leader of the United States, because there was no Director of Shade anywhere in the Executive chain of command he could call in for questioning or fire for cause. Also the attempted coercive recruitment of teenage girls. At that point os look less like a Govt agency any more like a ring of con artists impersonating federal agents and getting away with it.

So, President and co start an investigation, they kidnap president to replace him with a robot. Makes it look like the investigation had a lot of merit and the cat was about to come out of the bag unless they Did Something™

Which makes the President look even more capable, they had to go to these lengths to shut him down. Also hard for politicians to back Shade even when things calmed down.

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Mr Zoat said:
The UK government has not been suborned by Hell. They just use Demon magic sometimes.
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UK Government said:
We don't have a problem with Demon Magic, we can stop anytime we want!
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Yeah, keep telling yourselves that.
 
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Ganurath said:
I don't believe that the man himself is an unbiased source on this matter. He has all the skills of everyone within a five mile radius. If one of those people is the best at bioinformatics, and a couple people have skills in computer programming or biotechnology that cover up the bioinformatics person's few inadequacies, it would create the false impression of him having superior power to the person he's taking from. There's also the matter of his power not stealing character flaws, such as taking the genius from a lazy genius. Or, for a more applicable example, Chester's telekinesis coupled with a power ring user's more developed proprioception and a general lack of hotheadedness.
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But the comics back him up, I've read all of his comic book appearances, which isn't that impressive, he's only been in three comics. :)

First of all, he beat down Black Canary, not using superior speed or strength, but using superior Judo. So he was just lucky enough that there was a Judo studio on the street corner?

Then when Superman shows up to save her life, Paragon hits him so hard he hits the ozone layer. Now even if his range was five miles, even if you assume that Star City has the same population density as Manhattan, that would only add a couple of tons to Superman's strength. That's completely unnoticeable at Supe's level.

Then when he fights Firestorm, Firestorm can't trap Paragon using his molecular control powers, but Paragon can trap Firestorm. The idea that there just happened to be another molecular controller in the vicinity is a laughable idea, so yeah no.

Another thing that people don't seem to get is that Paragon's powers don't replace his abilities, they add to them. Paragon is always within his own range, by definition.

In his second appearance over in Superman, Superman's strategy against him was to fly to the Antarctic, and then threaten suicide with the red sun watch that he used to suppress Chris's powers. So the idea that Superman, the guy who has beaten up Darkseid and Doomsday has to resort to threatening suicide as plan A against a guy who is just his equal is unconvincing.

There's also the fact that the writers specifically had Lois Lane say he amplified the powers he emulated. Lois did a google search, Superman didn't know who he was. They apparently retconned Superman being a leaguer when he fought them, since even Paragon only held Superman guilty by association for ruining his life.

Or that in Superman's narration, he specifically says that while he's fighting the three daxamite priests with Paragon that Paragon is more powerful than all four of them combined. Yet oddly being more than four times more powerful than a kryptonian didn't equate to being able to beat down 3 daxamites when he was only outnumbered 3 to 2.

Naturally, Zoat is free to do what he likes (he certainly doesn't need my personal approval for all his choices, heaven forbid), but the fact that Paragon is all about "Whatever you can do, I can do better!" is the fundamental point of the character.

Oh amusing little fact- Lois said that he won five nobel prizes, not three, so either typo, comic book writers really not paying attention, or Paragon got awarded 2 more nobel prizes while rotting in prison.

Well, after catching up, I have to say I found the fight with Paragon rather anticlimactic, considering Zoat gave his powers a range of 5 square miles. In Washington DC, that means there should be about 52 thousand people in his range. Which means that, for example, even if everyone within range is of average speed, Paragon should be moving so fast that he's breaking the sound barrier.

And I don't see being blind being much of an impediment for him, statistically, with a range of 5 square miles, he should have the ability to get around without sight of almost 300 people
 
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stsword said:
Oh amusing little fact- Lois said that he won five nobel prizes, not three, so either typo, comic book writers really not paying attention, or Paragon got awarded 2 more nobel prizes while rotting in prison.
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"You let supervillains perform scientific experiments in prison?!"

"Well sure. We might as well get some use out of them after all. And what could go wrong?"

"...sigh. I'll just...just stand here and wait for the explosion."

"Explosion?"

"Or monster. But probably an explosion."
 
TheLastOne said:
It could have been purely theoretical work. That's marginally better.
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Or it could have been work he had done before he got arrested.

You know, maybe someone mentioned it the day or two I've been gone, but I imagine Paragon meeting Paul would have gone quite different.

Now I don't know about Agent of Shade Paragon, but in the comics, Paragon's motivation is pretty much loneliness.

Since the day he's been born, he's been the smartest guy in the room, and the most well informed on every subject (emulating physical abilities didn't manifest until puberty).

So for him, he's been a wash in stupidity and ignorance his entire life, and he has exactly as many friends as you'd expect with that attitude.

Which means, to me, that his "I'll build a bomb that will kill off all the idiots" is more "With the idiots gone, the smart people will appreciate me!"

I could see him getting on board with Paul's transhumanism, especially if Paul adds some of the ways to include intelligence into his efforts. Like say IQ's solar powered intelligence, or Anarky's brain fusion.
 
stsword said:
Or it could have been work he had done before he got arrested.

You know, maybe someone mentioned it the day or two I've been gone, but I imagine Paragon meeting Paul would have gone quite different.

Now I don't know about Agent of Shade Paragon, but in the comics, Paragon's motivation is pretty much loneliness.

Since the day he's been born, he's been the smartest guy in the room, and the most well informed on every subject (emulating physical abilities didn't manifest until puberty).

So for him, he's been a wash in stupidity and ignorance his entire life, and he has exactly as many friends as you'd expect with that attitude.

Which means, to me, that his "I'll build a bomb that will kill off all the idiots" is more "With the idiots gone, the smart people will appreciate me!"

I could see him getting on board with Paul's transhumanism, especially if Paul adds some of the ways to include intelligence into his efforts. Like say IQ's solar powered intelligence, or Anarky's brain fusion.
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The read I'm getting off of Paragon is that, well, his powers precluded him developing any form of morality or empathy. To him, other people are just whittering little insects who exist solely to fuel his own glory. Certainly, a few of them may have unusual powers, but that only matters insofar as Paragon can take those powers and properly wield them using his superior intellect.

My guess is that he'd only be interested in using Paul to try and kidnap large numbers of tech geniuses and use their stolen brilliance to build a machine for mass extermination of "inferior" beings, with a second machine that makes robots to go harvest the brains of the few exceptional insects and plug them into a life-support mainframe for his own personal use later. There's nothing in this man that doesn't merit immediate execution, and no amount of enlightened self-interest will make him less of a danger to others.
 
Honestly, if Paragon ran into P!OL, I'd expect accelerated perception, knee-capping, and a trip to somewhere secluded...like Ganymede.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
The read I'm getting off of Paragon is that, well, his powers precluded him developing any form of morality or empathy. To him, other people are just whittering little insects who exist solely to fuel his own glory. Certainly, a few of them may have unusual powers, but that only matters insofar as Paragon can take those powers and properly wield them using his superior intellect.

My guess is that he'd only be interested in using Paul to try and kidnap large numbers of tech geniuses and use their stolen brilliance to build a machine for mass extermination of "inferior" beings, with a second machine that makes robots to go harvest the brains of the few exceptional insects and plug them into a life-support mainframe for his own personal use later. There's nothing in this man that doesn't merit immediate execution, and no amount of enlightened self-interest will make him less of a danger to others.
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Pretty much. Now maybe if OL had been able to get to him early on he could have done something; young people are more malleable. But Paragon's been marinating in supervillainy and psychopathy for a long time now.

When a guy like Doctor T. Sivana Senior comes across as more human and introspective than you do, you've got problems.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
The read I'm getting off of Paragon is that, well, his powers precluded him developing any form of morality or empathy. To him, other people are just whittering little insects who exist solely to fuel his own glory. Certainly, a few of them may have unusual powers, but that only matters insofar as Paragon can take those powers and properly wield them using his superior intellect.

My guess is that he'd only be interested in using Paul to try and kidnap large numbers of tech geniuses and use their stolen brilliance to build a machine for mass extermination of "inferior" beings, with a second machine that makes robots to go harvest the brains of the few exceptional insects and plug them into a life-support mainframe for his own personal use later. There's nothing in this man that doesn't merit immediate execution, and no amount of enlightened self-interest will make him less of a danger to others.
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If so, the SHADE really wasn't good for his mental health, and considering his original characterization was genocidal that's really saying something.

Here's his original motivation right out of his own mouth-

"Hostile inferiority was a sign of unhealthy minds" to me, is code for "Nobody likes me, because they're all stupid, it couldn't possibly be my fault no one appreciates me."

So my guess would be, that since Paragon really wasn't the joining an organization and taking orders sort in the comics, that SHADE played the part of those who appreciate him.

I'm imagining things like "Oh doctor, use your unparallelled genius to solve this problem, no one else is worthy of such a responsibility," blah blah blah, blowing smoke up his skirt.

He's never been portrayed as very mature. In his Superman appearances, he only helps Supes against the three Daxamite priests because they blow him off when he offers to help.

Then when the daxamite priests summon the galactic golem, he refuses to help until Supes uses reverse psychology on him "Oh well never mind, if you're too much of a coward despite your awesome power, I'll just come up with another way." To which his response was basically "How stupid do you think I am, you think I can't figure out what you're doing? @$#$# it, I'm coming."

So even knowing that Superman was playing him, the idea that Superman might actually think less of him was enough to get him to do something he really didn't want to do, namely risk his life.

Then after Superman was injured defeating the Galactic Golem, he was all "Well you did just save the world, and you're injured, so if I defeated you then no one would give me any credit for it anyway, so ciao baby."

But maybe you're right, perhaps Zoat gave Agent Paragon a very different psychology from the comic book version, but in the comics it actually seems to be a case of an inferiority superiority complex. He pretends to be arrogant when in fact he's desperate for validation from others.

Not that we're likely to find out now, unless Zoat lets him regenerate his head thanks to planarians being within his range. Which I'm not holding my breath on, Paragon's powers don't seem to do animals, maybe if they have superpowers, but since he never fought Underdog that remains to be seen. :)
 
...Wait. In that comic page he could copy knowledge. Paul has meta-awareness. He knows of the nature of DC universe. I'm fairly sure that if Paragon got access to that, then, coupled with all other mind-altering stuff Paul has going for him (soul tattoos mucking up Paragon's soul; Orange light affecting Paragon's soul, lack of natural soul affecting Paragon's soul, orange enlightenment affecting Paragon's mind, connection to Ophidian completely screwing Paragon over), it would screw Paragon's mind into a pretzel.
 
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