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Doesn't... Alex Mercer... Eat people? Like, a lot of people?
It was a flippant thought that he found amusing. He doesn't care that they died, but he didn't do it specifically to make them die.
Again, that isn't what murder is. Certainly, he had input into the events leading to their deaths, but then so did Vertigo and their own decision to let him go. Heck, so did people in the Kaznian Government who didn't take the initiative in removing Vertigo's immunity.

alex mercer in the first game canonically targets either the infection or those who were involved in creating it. hes brutal, but ultimatly a force for...good? at least in the first game.

as for the other two, not murder i agree.

negligence and wrongful death is what i'd argue.

but then who would sue him?
 
Ah yes, this is definitely how the law works.
There are certain posters on this forum that have an unfortunate habit of treating their uninformed opinions as if they are unbreakable fact, and phrasing wild guesses and musing as if they're established and settled fact.

In reality, with the way the American legal system works, this wouldn't be so much an "open and shut case" as it would be "years and millions thrown at litigation until someone runs out of fucks to give." Rich-people court tends to work that way.

That's all I have to say on this, beyond this, colored for ease of emotional conveyance:

This argument and the sheer level of arrogant bullshittery being trotted out by certain people are why I don't normally read through the whole thread. Bully on me for trying to get context on what Zoat responded to.
 
Given Paragon's been stated as going to have problems with the League and hates the guy's guts, I think Paul's going to kill him on principle as a body snatching Lich. This is the same guy who railgun'd R'as.

Note Paul is not the type to kill people just because he doesn't like them. Ra's as he pointed out could come back from that and he let him. Paul also noted that he would rather it not come to a fight and was hopeful that Nabu would accept a golem body and be done with it. In regards to the lich thing Paul likely wouldn't be bothered if he didn't do the whole bodu jacking thing.
 
There are certain posters on this forum that have an unfortunate habit of treating their uninformed opinions as if they are unbreakable fact, and phrasing wild guesses and musing as if they're established and settled fact.

In reality, with the way the American legal system works, this wouldn't be so much an "open and shut case" as it would be "years and millions thrown at litigation until someone runs out of fucks to give." Rich-people court tends to work that way.

That's all I have to say on this, beyond this, colored for ease of emotional conveyance:

This argument and the sheer level of arrogant bullshittery being trotted out by certain people are why I don't normally read through the whole thread. Bully on me for trying to get context on what Zoat responded to.
sorry, im dragging out something i don't necerssarily agree with

im just trying to create new avenues for this circular argument. since the last time we did this, i got infracted
 
I really wouldn't call Paul's Hatred of Nabu unreasonable. In the Young Justice Animated Series there's a long timeskip before we get any sort of indication that Giovanni is in a more symbiotic relationship with Nabu. That Time skip is ample opportunity for Nabu to cool the hell down, stop throwing his temper tantrum, and behave like a person. But none of that has happened yet in story.

In story, Paul is dealing with a being that may be on the side of justice, but took advantage of a Father's love for his daughter to advance his own interests and is now wearing that body like a cheap suit and preventing Giovanni from being with his daughter. Effectively, Nabu blackmailed Giovanni into letting himself be kidnapped. Paul would be absolutely reasonable in hating Nabu if it was just some random person that was kidnapped, but he deals with Zatanna every day, he can see exactly what this is doing to her, and she's his friend. In that light, Paul's treatment of Nabu isn't out of any bounds of credibility. It would be a lot more strange if Paul was willing to live and let live. Especially since Paul offered other options.
 
Note Paul is not the type to kill people just because he doesn't like them. Ra's as he pointed out could come back from that and he let him. Paul also noted that he would rather it not come to a fight and was hopeful that Nabu would accept a golem body and be done with it. In regards to the lich thing Paul likely wouldn't be bothered if he didn't do the whole bodu jacking thing.
Eh. Paul does seem to be consistently somewhat ruthless when he feels it's necessary or justified. That, and there's that promised break with the League we still haven't seen happen- this is a very plausible cause for it.

Yes, but that was him trying to reason with him before things came to this. Remember Paul's response to the golem idea being rejected for what he he saw as no reason?

The issue is that the body-jacking thing is at the core of Zoat's Nabu. Killing him is something he would view as a positive, that he's working towards, and that he actively wants to do. I don't really see him changing his mind unless the situation changes drastically in a way that hasn't been set up in the text.
 
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Ah yes, this is definitely how the law works.
Mercy would be awarded General, Compensatory, and Punitive damages if she sued given the circumstances.

The majority of the money's awarded would come from the Compensatory which is aggravated by when Grayven destroyed a very likely couple hundred million dollar bionic prototype. And the Punitive which in general far exceeds the Compensatory damages and is used by the court to punish a defendant for negligence and misconduct.

Negligence and Misconduct which was extreme in this case.
 
alex mercer in the first game canonically targets either the infection or those who were involved in creating it. hes brutal, but ultimatly a force for...good? at least in the first game.

as for the other two, not murder i agree.

negligence and wrongful death is what i'd argue.

but then who would sue him?

wait,what are you talking about?
alex mercer was literally a genocidal, malicious, murderous psychopath with zero reddeming fea- oh.
oooooooh
you're talking about the sentient blacklight strain that jacked his body after killing him, right?
yeah, semi-decent-ish dude. little hungry though.
 
Mercy would be awarded General, Compensatory, and Punitive damages if she sued given the circumstances.

The majority of the money's awarded would come from the Compensatory which is aggravated by when Grayven destroyed a very likely couple hundred million dollar bionic prototype. And the Punitive which in general far exceeds the Compensatory damages and is used by the court to punish a defendant for negligence and misconduct.

Negligence and Misconduct which was extreme in this case.
First, everything Grayven did could be classified under "self defense" by an even basically-competent attorney.

Second, this is Grayven. If Mercy does in fact sue, which is the more likely: a) he goes along with the process, a pointless one that will cost him time and irritation to deal with, or b) he decides that Lex's pet attack-vixen has outlived her usefulness and gets rid of her in a much more expedient way?
 
Stop: Stop
There are certain posters on this forum that have an unfortunate habit of treating their uninformed opinions as if they are unbreakable fact, and phrasing wild guesses and musing as if they're established and settled fact.

In reality, with the way the American legal system works, this wouldn't be so much an "open and shut case" as it would be "years and millions thrown at litigation until someone runs out of fucks to give." Rich-people court tends to work that way.

That's all I have to say on this, beyond this, colored for ease of emotional conveyance:

This argument and the sheer level of arrogant bullshittery being trotted out by certain people are why I don't normally read through the whole thread. Bully on me for trying to get context on what Zoat responded to.

stop Tone down the incivility and the red text.


Mercy's a legally registered bodyguard.

Grayven's not an actual law enforcement officer.

Grayven didn't have a warrant to break into Lex's office which is required if he is to be considered there in an official capacity.

There's no way to argue Grayven was under any threat and he had already restrained Mercy.

There is no world that allows police officers to medically experiment on restrained prisoners.

And he doesn't have a license to practice medicine.

The case would literally be open and shut with Mercy ending up with very likely several billion dollars of awarded damages and a restraining order against Grayven.

At which point he would need another pardon from the President and Governor to avoid the criminal charges for a couple of those things on top of various other state and local laws he broke with this stunt.

abuse of funny rating @Silveraith, @GilliamYaeger don't use the funny rating on serious posts. 25 points each.
 
Huh.

Actually, she probably could.

Does America have a pockets full of fish law?
Not exactly, but depending on intent, somebody might fall under one of the various good samaritan laws in such a situation. For instance, if you push somebody out of the way of a bus you can't get sued by the person you saved, even if they trip on the curb and skin their knee.
 
A look at who Lex will recruit for the Light.

Amanda Waller is a must. It will take some time to convince her, but in the end the goal isn't for them to trust each other (they never will) but for them to see how they could both benefit from working together. Given their shared views of metahumans, I believe they will. Not only will she contribute the designs of supervillain weapons to the Light, but she will contribute the Suicide Squad. Lex knows he needs that, even if Waller doesn't share the idea with him. He's just received a lesson that getting into a fight with Grayven is as impossible as getting into a fight with Superman. But in that very same lesson, he realized Grayven couldn't kill him because it ruined 'the narrative'. Lex has good PR, and he knows how to use it. What better way to rid Grayven of most of his assets than to plan for several supervillains to attempt to enact a new Roanoke with some sort of fake doomsday device and secretly film Grayven murdering these SVs who are supposed to be in prison? 'Well, he already kills supervillains, I guess we the public shouldn't be surprised he'd kidnap them from prison to carry on the job. I'm glad the supervillains are dead, but Grayven is a menace!'

And of course, Lex won't give up on killing the Justice League. The plan was that Grayven's team would replace them as guardians of the earth, but with Grayven no longer 'trustworthy' he'll need someone who can make their own superhero team in the Light's pocket. I believe, after viewing the world's heroes, Lex would find Geo Force is the best choice. Not only is he the leader of a soveriegn nation, like a few past members of the Light, he could lead a new superhero team to Lex's specifications. There are quite a few heroes he could choose to be on the team too, like La Sangre, Dr. Moses Lwanga, Fire & Ice (who don't have Paul as beneficiaries in Grayven's world), Dark Ranger, El Gaucho, or Bilal Asselah, and several members of the Outsiders. Metamorpho, Halo, Katana, Black Lightning, Owlman. None are traditional superheroes. All of them share some of Lex's beliefs. They're not even c listers. And Lex proved in season 2 he can adeptly trick a superhero team into following his lead. All these heroes are available, with Prince Markov as their leader being funded by Lex? When the Justice League and Grayven are gone, Lex could imagine they could defend the earth until he sufficiently upgraded humanity. It will be interesting to see these heroes, or any hero he chooses to recruit, when they realize who they're working for.

Of course, he needs a magic user on his side. Circe is the obvious choice, but does that make her the best choice? He knows Grayven wants the new Light to have 'sane non-supervillain' members. Most magic users will wear costumes, but it's really up to Zoat which background magic users can be called sane in Earth 16. I'd say Thessaly from Sandman would make an awesome addition, but even if Lex could find her she'd probably cut out as soon as she realized politics were involved. Likewise the Shade, Diablo Blacksmith, and Doctor Occult probably couldn't be convinced to join. Maybe Amy Winston could make the cut? But what would really be interesting, if Lex could pull it off, would be if Lex recruited 'Zatanna' as a member of the Light. If he somehow subverted the orange light's influence on Nabu. Grayven would be reassured, especially with what he thinks is a means of spying on the Light at any time through his construct Nabu's eyes, and Lex would plot revenge on him with Nabu behind his back.

Now, Lex needs someone of the scientific field. Again, it's Zoat's world, he can decide who Lex thinks fits Grayven's definition of sane, but Dr. Niles Caulder seems like a good place to start. Not exactly who I'd think of as sane, but could be different in Earth 16, and could prove to make for an interesting story arc with Garfield and his mother. But if not him, then Dr. Sivana (any of them) would be a welcome addition to the team as well, especially if they're already advancing tech like they are in Paragon.

And of course, Lex was told to stay out of politics. So he needs someone else who knows how to stay out of politics but can certainly pull strings as he wants. I of course refer to the novelist and socialite Hunter Rose. With any luck, Grayven's never even heard of Hunter's alter ego and he can pretend to be the successful, wealthy, and well connected man that he is, while also pretending to be sane. He could use his connections like Vandal or Ras, to spread the Light's mission internationally.

That's all my top picks for Luthor's new Light. I have a few more ideas, but they'd all be stretching. Some he'd have no way to find, others he'd have no way to convince to join him. Who else might Luthor add to this ensemble?
 
That's all my top picks for Luthor's new Light. I have a few more ideas, but they'd all be stretching. Some he'd have no way to find, others he'd have no way to convince to join him. Who else might Luthor add to this ensemble?
Good points all. Personally, I don't think anyone who hasn't been mentioned already in story will be added, so that eliminates some of your picks. I do think Circe will be added, because she's a prime candidate who the SI mentioned as a possible for the League if they allowed villains.

In keeping with the theme of only using people who have already been mentioned, I think Cranius will be the pick for "science guy". While more specialized than Brain, he's very devoted to the cause of advancing the human species.

Also, there needs to be someone to parallel Queen Bee, someone with political power and legitimate infrastructure. I say Queen Clea. When she first showed up, Zoat said "I have plans for her." Considering virtually nothing has happened with her so far, and the fact that she seems pretty similar to Queen Bee in the good categories, she would be a good pick.
 
First, everything Grayven did could be classified under "self defense" by an even basically-competent attorney.

Second, this is Grayven. If Mercy does in fact sue, which is the more likely: a) he goes along with the process, a pointless one that will cost him time and irritation to deal with, or b) he decides that Lex's pet attack-vixen has outlived her usefulness and gets rid of her in a much more expedient way?
Contrary to how it's portrayed in the media Self Defense laws in the US tend to be very... Touchy.

To successfully claim self-defense, a person must prove four elements. First, they must prove that he or she was confronted with an unprovoked attack. Second, they must prove that the threat of injury or death was imminent. Third, they must prove that the degree of force used in self-defense was objectively reasonable under the circumstances. And fourth, they must prove that he or she had an objectively reasonable fear that he or she was going to be injured or killed unless he or she used self-defense.

To wit Grayven provoked the attack by breaking into the office, was under no threat of death or injury, used unreasonable amounts of force, and was under no reasonable fear that he was going to be injured or killed.

On top of this Mercy was acting to defend Lex against Grayven, which means the whole event falls foul of State v. Williams which says you cannot claim self defense if you first initiate an attack against another.
 
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Huh.

Actually, she probably could.

Does America have a pockets full of fish law?

Yes. We do. Sort of. In civil litigation (i.e. suing someone for damages) you can't recover for damages you didn't actually recieve. If as a result of the tortious conduct you benefited instead of being harmed yhe suit generally won't go through (unless there are eatablished per se statutory damages, or other things are involved) because at best you win nominal damages (like $1).

This is less a hard and fast law than it is a result of the structure of the civil tort system in the US. Tort Lawyers are all paid on a contingent fee basis (we recieve a portion of the damages won, and recieve nothing if the case is lost) so frivilous cases, cases ulikely to be won, and cases with low payouts simply aren't taken and thus don't go to court in the first place.
 
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There was an update on the spaghetti posting. Of relevance to this story, Squishy commented on typo corrections:

It's not unusual to find 'line edit' reviews of new chapters in User Fiction, quoting individual sentences or pieces of dialogue and making a short comment. These posts are essentially innocent of any wrongdoing, it's just the way the user engages with the work. Infracting someone for that, or banning it entirely, would be a bridge too far. However, the way that the quote tags format in XenForo means that posts like these take up a lot of real estate on screens, despite their relatively low word counts.

That's nobody's fault, but we would like to reduce the impact those kinds of posts have on the browsing experience. So from this point on we're going to ask that if you're making a line edit review, and your post ends up noticeably longer on the page as a result, that you make use of the spoiler tag to reduce the space it takes up.

In summary:

1. If you spaghetti post in an argument, discussion or debate, you will be opening yourself to staff intervention, including infractions or other punishments.
2. If you spaghetti post innocently, make use of the spoiler tag to reduce the amount of page space you're taking up.
 
@Silveraith, @GilliamYaeger don't use the funny rating on serious posts. 25 points each.
Wait, we're not supposed to rate things ironically? Damn. Not that I'd ever do anything like that myself... :whistle:
Second, this is Grayven. If Mercy does in fact sue[...]
I very much doubt she'd sue. In court her previous implants would become public as a part of the court record, as would the improved implants. And I doubt they're entirely legal, either before or after. There's no way Luthor would want all that publicised, given the chance that his connection to the Light could come up during such a trial. And odds are that Grayven would leave an expensive lawyer or ten to deal with it while he gallivants off among the stars, anyway.
 
Information: Official Staff Communication
Wait, we're not supposed to rate things ironically? Damn. Not that I'd ever do anything like that myself... :whistle:

official staff communication You are not supposed to rate things ironically. I recommend deleting the ratings before someone reports them, personally.
 
What are Paragon Paul's chances of having an actual romantic relationship? Are there any female characters that have similar interests such as his and don't mind the fact that he's so awkward about it, or would find his attempts charming, and won't react negatively to poorly phrased/worded information.
 
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