A good example is Julius Caesar. He was well loved by the common people of Rome during his time as a dictator, in part because he started many projects to help them such as restructuring debt to reduce the number of debtors, imposing term limits on governors, and creating public works projects to help reduce unemployment. He was soon killed by his key supporters, who were very much not the general public and did not approve of how some of these policies affected them.
That is one of the WORST EXAMPLES you made. Rome LOATHED KINGS at every level, and that is EXACTLY what perception he gave after he took control. The public support was doomed to disintegrate by his own actions if I remember my facts correctly. Edit2: I may have mis-remembered a few articles :oops:

The point about key supporters are true in every government, the only difference is who those key supporters are.


Edit: The main reason the position did not fall was because, when his Protege finally took control after a very long and extensive conflict, they were relieved it was all over, and the state of affairs normalized under him.
 
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@Sentient Tree I agree basically with everything you said. It's well understood that democracies are, simply put, better able to correct themselves, and the fact that you need to keep the people happy enough to not vote for someone else is certainly a powerfull incentive.

Basically a monarchy/benevolent dictatorship (there isn't really that much difference between the two in my opinion) can only work with an extremely good AND capable monarch/dictator.

The problem is that, EVEN if you get one, AND he has good and capable supporters... sooner or later he'll die.

and EVEN if he was good enough to replicate the situation for his heir... sooner or later there will be a failure.

And then the whole castle of cards will fall.

That's without even considering how a monarchy/dictatorship is simply more fragile, and if you kill the monarch/dictators there is likely going to be a civil war, ESPECIALLY if there is no clear heir. As it happened here.

my protest was really only on the way you phrased it. "Things don't have to be realistic, we have multiple monarchies that actually take good care of their people for crying out loud. "

Even taking mlp as an example and avoiding RL discussions... how long would Equestria have survived if, at any moment in the last 1000 years, Princess Celestia was killed or went mad? I'm not even considering the whole "moving the sun" situation, I HAVE to believe there is a contingency there, or that the spell is not actually complicated, just very draining, and unicorns would either find it or rediscover it. Maybe it's not even hidden, it's just that Celestia has a closer bond and is capable of overwriting anyone's attempt as long as she's alive.

Even if the sun-moving spell was lost another race might be able to do something with their own magics (maybe a zebra ritual or dragons pooling their strenght together, or a Changeling queen souped up on love) or Discord comes back and at least keeps everyone from dying.


eh, rambling a bit. short version: I agree with you, I just didn't like the way you phrased things. In the long term a monarchy will nearly always be worse than a democracy for its people.
 
Even taking mlp as an example and avoiding RL discussions... how long would Equestria have survived if, at any moment in the last 1000 years, Princess Celestia was killed or went mad? I'm not even considering the whole "moving the sun" situation, I HAVE to believe there is a contingency there, or that the spell is not actually complicated, just very draining, and unicorns would either find it or rediscover it. Maybe it's not even hidden, it's just that Celestia has a closer bond and is capable of overwriting anyone's attempt as long as she's alive.
Honestly, the most notable one in setting I am aware of, in Canon had problems with a family spat, which is virtually impossible to not have escalated into a full blown civil war due to just how bad the fighting between the two got.
 
While a king who happens to be morally good could potentially help his people a great deal, it's incredibly difficult for him to do so. A king must keep his key supporters happy, just as much as a president must keep the people who vote for him happy. The difference is that there are fewer people that keep the king in power.
Technically speaking, the king's supporters are whomever they are when the monarchy was formed, so a king's supporters can be just as big, if more distant, as a democracy. The thing that keeps the monarch's powerbase small is the existence of old institutions that the monarch has to please to stay in power. Take two different New World monarchies for example: Mexico under Maximillian II was fairly liberal, but his main power-base was the illiberal Catholic authorities and the old land-owners. As a result, Maximillian lost power because the liberals wanted a native republican government, whilst the illiberals whom were willing to tolerate the foreign-imposed monarchy did NOT want any liberalism to spread. Max couldn't satisfy either group because he fit neither of the conditions.

The other New World monarchy - the Empire of Brazil - however, lacked many of the old institutions holding any large sway over the country's political system from the start and was always founded on popular support. As a result, the emperor always acted with the people of Brazil, rather than the coffee aristocrats, as his main power-base. It's true that he was overthrown by those aristocrats after abolishing slavery, but by all historical analyses he was able to prevent the coup on popular support. It is just that the emperor - unrelated to the power squabbles for the most part - had become greatly depressed in the preceding years after losing both of his sons at a young age and thus didn't really have the will to even attempt to prevent the military coup. The proceeding military dictatorship that dubbed itself a "republic" had very little popular support, as a result.
 
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Honestly, the most notable one in setting I am aware of, in Canon had problems with a family spat, which is virtually impossible to not have escalated into a full blown civil war due to just how bad the fighting between the two got.
if you mean the Luna vs Celestia thing, It probably simply didn't have the TIME to become a civil war.

Luna confronted Celestia directly, one VERY short fight and Luna was on the moon. Most people were (canonically) on Celestia's side anyway, and she was the only demigod remaining, so...

honestly the really unforgivable thing to me is how she was pretty much ERASED FROM HISTORY. AND NOBODY NOPONY EVER SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

I mean, the fact your immortal ruler had a sister who ruled at her side seems like something worth writing in your history books. Same for Discord.

It would take a deliberate effort over multiple generations to COMPLETELY remove them from common knowledge.

If you forget the show is mostly aimed at children and start to REALLY think about things it's honestly understandable why there are so many "Evil" Celestia fanfics. Or even the ones in which she's not exactly evil, but she's basically a well intentioned tyrant beyond anything that ever existed in real life.
 
My personal headcanon is that Luna wasn´t so much *erased from history* as more *subsumed by Nightmare Moon in the books*, with Celestia just too hurt to really complain.
I think that makes a lot of sense, especially since that one story in episode one has quite a bit of the broad strokes of what happened, only at the time of the anime, it was dismissed as a legend, or fairy tale, and thus not something that was important, until twilight came along a few days before the emphasized date.
 
That is one of the WORST EXAMPLES you made. Rome LOATHED KINGS at every level, and that is EXACTLY what perception he gave after he took control. The public support was doomed to disintegrate by his own actions if I remember my facts correctly. Edit2: I may have mis-remembered a few articles :oops:

The point about key supporters are true in every government, the only difference is who those key supporters are.


Edit: The main reason the position did not fall was because, when his Protege finally took control after a very long and extensive conflict, they were relieved it was all over, and the state of affairs normalized under him.

Yep. Rules for Rulers, and the book it's based off of, are what I was basing my post off of. My point being that monarchies have fewer key supporters than democracies, and as such it is harder to help the people.
And yeah, worry that Caesar might declare an heir to his political position was certainly one of the things that pushed the key supporters into action.

@Sentient Tree I agree basically with everything you said. It's well understood that democracies are, simply put, better able to correct themselves, and the fact that you need to keep the people happy enough to not vote for someone else is certainly a powerfull incentive.

Basically a monarchy/benevolent dictatorship (there isn't really that much difference between the two in my opinion) can only work with an extremely good AND capable monarch/dictator.

The problem is that, EVEN if you get one, AND he has good and capable supporters... sooner or later he'll die.

and EVEN if he was good enough to replicate the situation for his heir... sooner or later there will be a failure.

And then the whole castle of cards will fall.

That's without even considering how a monarchy/dictatorship is simply more fragile, and if you kill the monarch/dictators there is likely going to be a civil war, ESPECIALLY if there is no clear heir. As it happened here.

my protest was really only on the way you phrased it. "Things don't have to be realistic, we have multiple monarchies that actually take good care of their people for crying out loud. "

Even taking mlp as an example and avoiding RL discussions... how long would Equestria have survived if, at any moment in the last 1000 years, Princess Celestia was killed or went mad? I'm not even considering the whole "moving the sun" situation, I HAVE to believe there is a contingency there, or that the spell is not actually complicated, just very draining, and unicorns would either find it or rediscover it. Maybe it's not even hidden, it's just that Celestia has a closer bond and is capable of overwriting anyone's attempt as long as she's alive.

Even if the sun-moving spell was lost another race might be able to do something with their own magics (maybe a zebra ritual or dragons pooling their strenght together, or a Changeling queen souped up on love) or Discord comes back and at least keeps everyone from dying.


eh, rambling a bit. short version: I agree with you, I just didn't like the way you phrased things. In the long term a monarchy will nearly always be worse than a democracy for its people.
Sorry, I did phrase it poorly. What I was trying to say was that we have what seems to me like a statistically improbable number of very benevolent monarchies at the same time (us, neighpon, canterbury, and equestria). I assumed that was because of some feature of the setting, but maybe I assumed too much. If nothing else, we don't really know for sure just how benevolent Canterbury will actually turn out to be.

Edit:
Technically speaking, the king's supporters are whomever they are when the monarchy was formed, so a king's supporters can be just as big, if more distant, as a democracy. The thing that keeps the monarch's powerbase small is the existence of old institutions that the monarch has to please to stay in power. Take two different New World monarchies for example: Mexico under Maximillian II was fairly liberal, but his main power-base was the illiberal Catholic authorities and the old land-owners. As a result, Maximillian lost power because the liberals wanted a native republican government, whilst the illiberals whom were willing to tolerate the foreign-imposed monarchy did NOT want any liberalism to spread. Max couldn't satisfy either group because he fit neither of the conditions.

The other New World monarchy - the Empire of Brazil - however, lacked many of the old institutions holding any large sway over the country's political system from the start and was always founded on popular support. As a result, the emperor always acted with the people of Brazil, rather than the coffee aristocrats, as his main power-base. It's true that he was overthrown by those aristocrats after abolishing slavery, but by all historical analyses he was able to prevent the coup on popular support. It is just that the emperor - unrelated to the power squabbles for the most part - had become greatly depressed in the preceding years after losing both of his sons at a young age and thus didn't really have the will to even attempt to prevent the military coup. The proceeding military dictatorship that dubbed itself a "republic" had very little popular support, as a result.
Thanks for telling me about these examples, I hadn't learned about them before.
 
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Sorry, I did phrase it poorly. What I was trying to say was that we have what seems to me like a statistically improbable number of very benevolent monarchies at the same time (us, neighpon, canterbury, and equestria).

Right now, Equestria is either still a bunch of quarreling pony tribes (heck, we might get to meet ponies like Chancellor Puddinghead, Clover the Clever and Snowfall Frost) or the beginning of Tias and Lulus joint regency and therefore a diarchy, technically.

Also, depending how exactly the two Alicorns came to power, they might be tyrants and dictators in the original definition:

- Tyrant: *The original Greek term meant an absolute sovereign who came to power without constitutional right,[3] yet the word had a neutral connotation during the Archaic and early Classical periods. *

- Dictator: *Originally an emergency legal appointment in the Roman Republic, the term "Dictator" did not have the negative meaning it has now. A Dictator was a magistrate given sole power for a limited duration. At the end of the term, the Dictator's power was returned to normal Consular rule whereupon a dictator provided accountability, though not all dictators accepted a return to power sharing. *
 
Sorry, I did phrase it poorly. What I was trying to say was that we have what seems to me like a statistically improbable number of very benevolent monarchies at the same time (us, neighpon, canterbury, and equestria). I assumed that was because of some feature of the setting, but maybe I assumed too much. If nothing else, we don't really know for sure just how benevolent Canterbury will actually turn out to be.
The reason they are still "good" is that they have all only just came into being. More or less.

That is to say, they haven't had the time for dross to accumulate and clog the system with scum because everyone still knows the price of disloyalty (anarchy which, while not as bad as Discord, is still much worse than what they have now). Add to that the still needed aspect of feudalism where the militant class is preventing the fall of civilization to monsters'n'stuff, and you have a bunch of governments that are focused around protecting and serving the people.

Just give it a few centuries, and then you would be correct in saying that it is improbable to have these sorts of arrangements.
 
if you mean the Luna vs Celestia thing, It probably simply didn't have the TIME to become a civil war.
Actually thinking about it, in this timeline, if it happens, it could look very different, and might turn into a civil war.

Just give it a few centuries, and then you would be correct in saying that it is improbable to have these sorts of arrangements.
That can also apply to democracies, because people may gain more influence on the government through various means. Take a look at Rome for a historical example. Moderen-day, look at Adolf Hitler, who earned enough influence to outright take over the government.
 
That can also apply to democracies, because people may gain more influence on the government through various means. Take a look at Rome for a historical example. Moderen-day, look at Adolf Hitler, who earned enough influence to outright take over the government.
Well, yes, I was just saying that things haven't been settled for long enough that power structures would have had the opportunities to ossify into arrangements that disfavor the lower classes.

Heck, labor unions can decay into something that work against it's members interests.
 
Yeah yeah, all governments are really young or had to adapt to the disappearance of Discord, so they're still not that established.

It will be interesting to see how things evolve in the following generations (if we ever reach that point)


Actually thinking about it, in this timeline, if it happens, it could look very different, and might turn into a civil war.
Oh, we already got confirmation of that I think. It's literally up to the dice.

We might find everything from evil sisters to friendly sisters in peace and harmony
 
Well, yes, I was just saying that things haven't been settled for long enough that power structures would have had the opportunities to ossify into arrangements that disfavor the lower classes.
In Germany, that is true.
In Rome, on the other hand, The soldiers grown so much in influence, they decided how government was run. They helped put Caesar in as dictator, then shut down any attempts to restore the previous government, even with the support of the general public. Then, there was the fact that the United states was dominated by corporations, until an untimely assassination thrust the anti big business vice president into office.
 
The reason they are still "good" is that they have all only just came into being. More or less.

That is to say, they haven't had the time for dross to accumulate and clog the system with scum because everyone still knows the price of disloyalty (anarchy which, while not as bad as Discord, is still much worse than what they have now). Add to that the still needed aspect of feudalism where the militant class is preventing the fall of civilization to monsters'n'stuff, and you have a bunch of governments that are focused around protecting and serving the people.

Just give it a few centuries, and then you would be correct in saying that it is improbable to have these sorts of arrangements.
By 'good,' I mean actively improving the lot of the common people, outside of natural increases in quality of life due to new technology or the world economy growing. I would say that while it can certainly take a few centuries for a monarchy to end and be replaced by something else (like another dynasty), it takes a much shorter amount of time for a monarchy to stop acting in the best interests of the people. Generally by the end of the reign of whichever king decided to start acting in the people's best interests. If they're very lucky, by the end his heir's reign. Note that often times the end of that king's reign is also the end of his dynasty because helping the people often gets kings killed for reasons I mentioned before.

Edit:
Specifically, I'm disagreeing that it is likely to take more than a generation or two of leaders, not disagreeing that governments do often get worse over time.

Then, there was the fact that the United states was dominated by corporations, until an untimely assassination thrust the anti big business vice president into office.
Would you mind telling me what time period/vice president you're referring to? I'm genuinely interested in learning about that.
 
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until an untimely assassination thrust the anti big business vice president into office.
Would you mind telling me what time period/vice president you're referring to? I'm genuinely interested in learning about that.
He's referring to William McKinley's assassination putting Theodore Roosevelt in power. Roosevelt was initially seen as a populistic bluster of a politician and warhawk whom the party leaders put on the VP ticket to quiet and ensure he would never come to power, since VP was seen as a dead-end job. By chance, McKinley was shot and Roosevelt, to the surprise of the party bosses, became the president.

That said, it is a historical misnomer that Roosevelt was anti-Big Business. He was pro-Big Business, but anti-monopoly. He held similar beliefs to the later Hoover in that companies should lead the way and are the American Way of leading the world, but that they should do so in a just and fair manner with the government helping mediate said justice.
 
Theodore Roosevelt, the 26th president. A well-known antitrust politician who was made vice president, a dead-end political position to deal with him and as an empty concilitary gesture. :ninja:Ninjad
 
Sorry, I did phrase it poorly. What I was trying to say was that we have what seems to me like a statistically improbable number of very benevolent monarchies at the same time (us, neighpon, canterbury, and equestria). I assumed that was because of some feature of the setting, but maybe I assumed too much. If nothing else, we don't really know for sure just how benevolent Canterbury will actually turn out to be.
The interesting thing about both us and Koryu is that we were initially handed genuine power when it would have been easy for the people doing the handing to just not. Koryu could've easily gone the way of Emperor Xian and played the role of the conch from Lord of the Flies, and literally nobody had to care about our ancestry. I'm sure future historians will have a lot to say about what that meant about the nature of power in the post-Discord world, but I'm not equipped to do so.
Edit:
Specifically, I'm disagreeing that it is likely to take more than a generation or two of leaders, not disagreeing that governments do often get worse over time.
And that's why adopting a dragon was a good idea. Really stretch those generations out.
 
And that's why adopting a dragon was a good idea. Really stretch those generations out.
Another bonus, she could serve as a check to help ensure things don't go to hell in a hand-basket. Bad leaders have a tendency to make things go bad very quickly, whenever they only care for themselves and their circle of friends, or just being that much of an idiot. Our dragon daughter, could help minimize the damage such individuals could do, whenever it is limiting the actions of those that would exploit the position for their own gain, or by helping the leader not screw things up as a wise adviser. Of course, this is relying on her both having influence and the means of doing so, and that she would serve as a moderating influence.
 
He's referring to William McKinley's assassination putting Theodore Roosevelt in power. Roosevelt was initially seen as a populistic bluster of a politician and warhawk whom the party leaders put on the VP ticket to quiet and ensure he would never come to power, since VP was seen as a dead-end job. By chance, McKinley was shot and Roosevelt, to the surprise of the party bosses, became the president.

That said, it is a historical misnomer that Roosevelt was anti-Big Business. He was pro-Big Business, but anti-monopoly. He held similar beliefs to the later Hoover in that companies should lead the way and are the American Way of leading the world, but that they should do so in a just and fair manner with the government helping mediate said justice.
Theodore Roosevelt, the 26th president. A well-known antitrust politician who was made vice president, a dead-end political position to deal with him and as an empty concilitary gesture. :ninja:Ninjad
Thanks!

And that's why adopting a dragon was a good idea. Really stretch those generations out.
Come to think of it, does this mean that the single most important thing we can possibly do as Garrick and Gawain is to make sure that Gwindlyn is fit to rule well? If she becomes a bad ruler, our country would be in for a very bad time. :confused:
 
Come to think of it, does this mean that the single most important thing we can possibly do as Garrick and Gawain is to make sure that Gwindlyn is fit to rule well? If she becomes a bad ruler, our country would be in for a very bad time. :confused:
Top three, definitely.
number one would be making Gawain or Garrick ascend alicorn-style, but I already talked a lot about my hopes for that, and I acknowledge that it's unlikely to happen.

It would also exchange a problem for another, as an IMMORTAL ruler, after a few generation, becomes so strictly connected to its country that anyone who wanted to fight us would HAVE to start things with assassination attempts.

cue panic and (possibly) civil war, depending on if and what contingencies there are in place
 
Was Celestia ever *confirmed* as Equestrias "keystone"? I thought that was merely fanon.
define "keystone". We mostly meant that without her there is panic in the street. They're so used to having an immortal princess in charge that most wouldn't know what to do once she disappeared, and that's without considering nobles like Blueblood trying to get the throne for themselves.

Also, and this is NOT canon (but it fits with this quest setting I think) Equestria is, objectively speaking, very weak militarly. We SAW how disappointing both the royal guard AND the wonderbolts were most of the time.

Except their ruler controls the sun. Few would dare to attack the one controlling the sun. We don't even know if she can use it as a weapon, but it's not too much of a stretch to assume she can.

And Luna can go into everyone's dreams. Can you imagine an army, or even a whole people, that is not allowed to have a pleasant sleep for week?
 
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