Maybe not make them explicitly antagonistic towards us, but us discovering that a nation that carried itself with an air of civility and chivalry just went and assassinated the ruler of a "barbaric" other nation would definitely sour relationships and make things tense for a while.
They DO have an history with them. A bad one.

And it's likely they were not able to recover all the kidnapped citizen.

I think you're underestimating the level of dislike/hate that Canterbury would hold for Maretonia.

There's also likely a level of "blasphemy! They use the gift of magic to subjugate their own people!"

I don't think them being willing to go for an assassination IN THIS CASE should really worry us. We might have done the same in similar circumstances
 
Seriously, guys?

I mean, of course we meddled with Maretonian politics something hard (destabilizing the nation greatly in the process), but only to get our enslaved Gryphs and Qilin out...outright assassinating Mareia to throw Maretonia into the dust isn´t something we should have gone for.

We are supposed to be Good Guys, after all.
 
Seriously, guys?

I mean, of course we meddled with Maretonian politics something hard (destabilizing the nation greatly in the process), but only to get our enslaved Gryphs and Qilin out...outright assassinating Mareia to throw Maretonia into the dust isn´t something we should have gone for.

We are supposed to be Good Guys, after all.

Being good doesn't always mean being 'nice' by any means. But I do agree assassinating Mareia would have been a very poor move with only short term gains that would have been overshadowed by what we have at the moment.
 
While killing Mareia was mostly a bad move, I think it was a reasonable one from Canterbury's point of view.

It's not like they know we were already working on changing things from the inside thanks to our partnership with the abolitionists.

They might have even expected we would have approved, maybe trying to negotiate with us for a joint offensive once Maretonia really went down in flames. I would have accepted too IF we didn't already have another plan.

good guys CAN do shady things, and assassination is FAR from the worst that comes to mind. We can't even say that Mareia didn't deserve it, we don't know enough about her, her position and how much the state of things was her fault.

all we know about Mareia is that she wasn't stupid or horribly shortsighted, and saw the advantages of NOT ANTAGONIZING THE DANGEROUS NEIGHBOURS.


and of course we STILL don't know if it was them. If it was, it was a reasonable move, especially if they know something we don't
 
Question: why exactly is it a bad move?
Unless they knew the consequences of Mareia's death there was/is a good chance of the new factions deciding to attack them.

Maybe it's better to say that it was risky more than BAD. Mareia was at least predictable, and you know what they say about the enemy you know Vs the one you don't.

Also we already had a plan with the abolitionists that was progressing pretty well (which of course they probably didn't know about)
 
Maybe not make them explicitly antagonistic towards us, but us discovering that a nation that carried itself with an air of civility and chivalry just went and assassinated the ruler of a "barbaric" other nation would definitely sour relationships and make things tense for a while.
Seriously, guys?

I mean, of course we meddled with Maretonian politics something hard (destabilizing the nation greatly in the process), but only to get our enslaved Gryphs and Qilin out...outright assassinating Mareia to throw Maretonia into the dust isn´t something we should have gone for.

We are supposed to be Good Guys, after all.
They're a kingdom with their own goals and beliefs. There is no such thing as an objective "good" and "bad" guy in politics, only competing interests and shades of grey and gray to achieve them. This continued hard line of subjective morality is becoming a bit annoying since it is very clear it's not being done out of pragmatism or diplomacy.

The only thing wrong with them if they had done so is the fact that they did so recklessly, if it was in fact a state sponsored event rather than private actors from Canterbury or a frame job.
 
It could also have been a vague domino cascade type prophecy.

Like "Give X a powerful poison and tell them Y and Z, do this and maretonia shall cease the slave raids"

They didnt know HOW it would pan out beyond they would stop doing slave raids, just that it WOULD stop the slave raids
 
They're a kingdom with their own goals and beliefs. There is no such thing as an objective "good" and "bad" guy in politics, only competing interests and shades of grey and gray to achieve them. This continued hard line of subjective morality is becoming a bit annoying since it is very clear it's not being done out of pragmatism or diplomacy.

The only thing wrong with them if they had done so is the fact that they did so recklessly, if it was in fact a state sponsored event rather than private actors from Canterbury or a frame job.

Trust me, I can be a very pragmatic person. That doesn´t mean that I am willing to let go any morals any time soon, though.

Plus, even with Canterlot having access to vision I doubt that their Lady would just condone something like assassinating a foreign ruler as long as other avenues present themselves.
 
Let's be real: Maretonia was unstable, it's survival depending on a carefull balancing act from the queen between all the noble factions, and change would have required a price to be payed in blood anyway.

What makes the assassination of the queen (which was at best "a victim of the circumstances, limited by her own role", and at worst as much a supporter of the system as everyone else) that much worse than our financing and supporting a VIOLENT uprising of the abolitionists?

Yeah, we were trying to slowly change things through intrigue, but that would have certainly included plenty of nobles' deaths at the very least. There was always a decent chance of the queen not supporting the abolitionists position even once they were strenghtened, which would have led to civil war eventually anyway.

A completely peacefull and bloodless revolution was never even a possibility. Really, it rarely ever is!


Mareia was, from what we know, mostly interested on mantaining the status quo, which mean her on the throne and the nobles mostly satisfied with her rule. If possible she would have liked to centralize power, but it would have needed to be a slow thing to avoid upsetting the cart too much.

We might have been able to use her ambition to our advantage, but she has never been shown as "good". Just clever enough to understand it was in her best interest to not give us a reason to bring our army to them.

Also, IF it was Canterbury that acted than we can reasonably expect them to have had access to some prophecy of sort. Otherwise why would they have acted RIGHT NOW?

..Actually if they plan to take advantage of the kingdom's confusion, why haven't they come to talk with us and see if they can make a deal about a possible war of conquest? We'd be at least willing to listen I think.

At this point I expect we'll get a chance to discreetly ask them ourselves. We could send Gawain, and whenever he gets a chance to ask Chevaline in private he might bring up our suspicions. They don't even have that much reason to deny it, really. If it was them I'd be perfectly fine with dropping the investigation, or try to frame one of the other noble houses.
Or at least that the situation didn´t yet warrant that kind of cloak-and-dagger stuff
well, it wouldn't have warranted it...if they had known we already had plans in motions. Which they didn't.

If they thought we were leaving Maretonia to itself, limiting ourselves to preparing for a future military conflict...well, seeding chaos by killing the queen might actually have been meant to be a way to help us, by facilitating a military offensive.

They didn't know we were actually trying to AVOID the conflict by strenghtening a sympathetic internal faction
 
You know, griffonia of our era is probably going to be known for 2 things. The rapid technological development and our frightening intrigue capabilities.
 
..Actually if they plan to take advantage of the kingdom's confusion, why haven't they come to talk with us and see if they can make a deal about a possible war of conquest? We'd be at least willing to listen I think.

Depends, theres good chance we would go in with them. I mean in our plans of violet uprising we pretty much had plans of taking pieces of Maretonia with Neighponese and them, also its not like other two would sit and watch us flexing our influence. I even expect for them to take steps in this civil war in the future as it would be foolish not to and let all their influence be handled through us.

Every support has its price after all and we certainly arent supporting abolitionists for free.
 
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If they thought we were leaving Maretonia to itself, limiting ourselves to preparing for a future military conflict...well, seeding chaos by killing the queen might actually have been meant to be a way to help us, by facilitating a military offensive.

They didn't know we were actually trying to AVOID the conflict by strenghtening a sympathetic internal faction


But if Queen Chevaline ordered that hit because a vision told her so, why didn´t that vision (supposedly sent by her GODDESS) tell her of our meddling and urged her to coordinate things better? Something´s not quite right here...

Also, is it so hard to excercise a modicum of restraint when talking pragmatic solution to political problems? I mean, if assassinating people in our way is an acceptable first response, then why did nobody advise to do so when dealing with the Yaks pre-unification to make them even more receptive to our designs?
 
But if Queen Chevaline ordered that hit because a vision told her so, why didn´t that vision (supposedly sent by her GODDESS) tell her of our meddling and urged her to coordinate things better? Something´s not quite right here...

Also, is it so hard to excercise a modicum of restraint when talking pragmatic solution to political problems? I mean, if assassinating people in our way is an acceptable first response, then why did nobody advise to do so when dealing with the Yaks pre-unification to make them even more receptive to our designs?

You know why not simply have Lady describe her the future in detail for next 100 years or so. Visions are probably meant to be short and to the point. Like Queen of Mareronia leading her army over ashes of Canterbury .

How someone solves that is up to them, for example sometimes restraint isnt a good thing and real action must be taken. Though im pretty sure Chevaline has nothing with murder.
 
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But if Queen Chevaline ordered that hit because a vision told her so, why didn´t that vision (supposedly sent by her GODDESS) tell her of our meddling and urged her to coordinate things better? Something´s not quite right here...

Also, is it so hard to excercise a modicum of restraint when talking pragmatic solution to political problems? I mean, if assassinating people in our way is an acceptable first response, then why did nobody advise to do so when dealing with the Yaks pre-unification to make them even more receptive to our designs?
we DID have an option to basically choose and support a would-be-king for the Yaks. In the end we didn't take it because we

1)thought we had time to choose what to do
2)we had more urgent stuff
3)we trusted the Yaks.

pre-unification we wouldn't have really gained THAT much from an assassination, and would have lost a lot if discovered.

Again, we HAD a chance to proceed with kill-teams when saving our people from Maretonia, and ended up going with stealth-ops instead more for the "you can't prove it was us" and to not incite them to war then for moral reasons (at least that was my read)

Just killing the queen isn't really the worst way to deal with the castle of card that was Maretonia. Maximum result, minimum effort.

assassinating people is not really acceptable AS A FIRST RESPONSE, but Canterbury had a longer history with them than us. If it was them, this was far from their FIRST resort I think.

And of course, it might very well be that they're innocents, and we're arguing for nothing.

Really, at this point I'd simply ask them while revealing about our investigations (in private, possibly through Gawain). If they admit to it we change our goal from "discover the culprit" to "frame one of the houses", or even simply drop the whole thing.

If they deny it (and we believe them) we continue our investigations, and argue about how to deal with the culprit only once we discover the who and the why.

You know why not simply have Lady describe her the future in detail for next 100 years or so. Visions are probably meant to be short and to the point. Like Queen of Mareronia leading her army over ashes of Canterbury .

How someone solves that is up to them, for example sometimes restraint isnt a good thing and real action must be taken. Though im pretty sure Chevaline has nothing with murder.

At this point I think it was someone from Canterbury but without the (explicit) approval of Chevaline. Plausible Deniability and all that. Maybe an overzealous spymaster/spy/noble for example.
 
At this point I think it was someone from Canterbury but without the (explicit) approval of Chevaline. Plausible Deniability and all that. Maybe an overzealous spymaster/spy/noble for example.

If it is they would have a good reason for it. For example its no secret that there was tension between Maretonia and its neighbours , also its no secret that any such war would be fought on Maretonian and Canterburian soil. Because if we look at it between our and their border there is gigantic wall, then there are wastelands of Crystal protectorate and defenses of Crystal city we are logistically connected via railroad while Neighpon rules the waves. Basically only fool would order attack on us, far better option would be to go on defensive against us and strike at Canterbury stretching our supply lines while possibly pillaging enemy land.

If faced with war on their soil and civil war in Maretonia some people in Caterbury would probably chose later of the two.
 
So, after thinking about everything a bit, I have to admit, we have to at least entertain the possibility of someone of Canterbury HQ having ordered that hit.

Because as one char in the novel "Jingo" said (paraphrased) to a noble cop, who was investigating a murder of a foreign noble:

"Truly treat all people as equal...admit that foreigners can also be devious bastards and not just your own"

That means that next turn we should tell Chevaline (under the guise of further trade talk), that we investigated Queen Mareias death and found a poison that primarly is found in Canterbury. Make it clear that we are not accusing her of anything and only want to cover all possible bases - maybe she can divine something we might have missed?

Which means that we could also pick "She can see the Future" for synergy.
 
we need to focus on kids in next turn and we should propably raise the army numbers just a bit ten thousand soldiers would take 1/4 of our reserves and add 100 gold to upkeep but it could be usefull if we end having to assist abolitionists with final push or end up having to help them with mantaining security.
 
we need to focus on kids in next turn and we should propably raise the army numbers just a bit ten thousand soldiers would take 1/4 of our reserves and add 100 gold to upkeep but it could be usefull if we end having to assist abolitionists with final push or end up having to help them with mantaining security.
The reason we have not already expanded the army is that it might be taken as an aggressive move from the Maretonian faction. it's easier to have quality improvements (like the crossbows, the new type of cannons, or even a new knight order), pass unnoticed than a doubling of our army.

Still, it might be the right moment. We COULD delay another turn I think, while we gather intel and take a few other upgrades, but it wouldn't be a bad time to proceed instead.

About the kids... Well, it depends on what actions we are offered.
 
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