We Are the Gods of a New World Order [Warhammer 50K ~ Warp God Simulator]

I want to turtle up to the point where we can tank crusade fleets, but I have no idea if that's actually achievable.

We'll just have to see what the timeskip gives us.
 
I want to turtle up to the point where we can tank crusade fleets, but I have no idea if that's actually achievable.

We'll just have to see what the timeskip gives us.

i dont think is possible currently with the pops we have
a few million inhabitants are not much warp juice to make a planet capable of tanking an entire sector worth of ships

i think we rather flee,build pops and then turtle up
 
I want to turtle up to the point where we can tank crusade fleets, but I have no idea if that's actually achievable.

We'll just have to see what the timeskip gives us.
Not without exponentially more cultists and planets fully under our control. The Imperium can throw an absolutely ridiculous amount of fleet power around, more than enough to overwhelm us, and will be able to do so for a very long time. To the Imperium, a single planet- a single sector- isn't even a blip on the accounting records.
 
Not without exponentially more cultists and planets fully under our control. The Imperium can throw an absolutely ridiculous amount of fleet power around, more than enough to overwhelm us, and will be able to do so for a very long time. To the Imperium, a single planet- a single sector- isn't even a blip on the accounting records.
With the possible exception of if Alectai cares to go for a Deus Ex Machina and have all our other siblings pop up at the same time and maybe also a civil war with the Mechanicus and invasion from the Necrons and Eldar.

Basically return things to Situation Normal, All Fucked Up for 40K Imperium instead of their current uncontested state.
 
Not without exponentially more cultists and planets fully under our control. The Imperium can throw an absolutely ridiculous amount of fleet power around, more than enough to overwhelm us, and will be able to do so for a very long time. To the Imperium, a single planet- a single sector- isn't even a blip on the accounting records.
Hmmm. This got me thinking about redefining the concept of taking a planet and the system fully under our control. Or more honestly, opening up some old 40k canon Chaos toolset with just less horrid themes. Unfortunately, it will not improve the impression the Imperials have about us the slighest, but I admit that in the short term we have to look for means to survival. And as it is not really morally questionable, just with horrible optics, I think we should go for it.

Because while turning Equinox into a Death World (just for the invaders) has been suggested somewhat frequently, those few times that turning the planet into a Daemon World has been mentioned it didn't gain much attention, I think. We don't even have to turn the planet into a mobile world (or at least immediately do so), because cracking it open at that point will become just about impossible, extremely likely even for this 50k Imperium.

As to how we would do it? I think the answer has already been laid out for us. As soon as we complete this Arc, we will level up our Scope to 3, where we start to unlock the juicy stuff. We might be able to even level up our Cult Scale to 3 before the Arc is even over actually. So we will likely have enough divine mojo for the attempt, for starters. Then there are what are probably some hints springled in the narrative and the Turn's actions:
She turns her staff to the distant spire of Lambent--the golden elevator to the stars that dominates the horizon from any point in the Colonial territories--clouds pouring from its walls as the marginal world is steadily converted to a climactic and ecological equal to Terra of Old.

It has to do with the Colony Core from what they've told you in the past. A marvel from ancient times recovered sometime in M46, it contained a full genetic database of all known forms of Terran life and vast atmospheric and geographical manipulation engines. Simply drop it on a planet and watch it change to another version of Ancient Terra before your eyes!

The range wasn't unlimited of course, the change was most dramatic early on--but it steadily slowed as the range expanded. Equinox as a colony has only been settled with the modern techniques in the past century--so the radius is a 'Mere' two thousand kilometres--a relatively small portion of the word's overall area. The borders tended to be a hell of native life constantly being pushed out of their usual lands by hunters or simply bio-incompatibility.

It's not how you'd do it yourself, but it's also not something you can criticize--people do what they can to protect themselves, and the native life of Equinox are a toxic, murderous bunch that are just smart enough to kill a lot of people if given time, but dumb enough to be incapable of fear.
[ ] Reforge the Spire (DC 101)
-[ ] (Attached Cult Tokens)
-[ ] (Available Domains: Weaving, Endurance, Harvest)
The Spire is in your hands, and will serve a critical function in the days ahead. You're going to be using it as an amplifier or your power regardless... But wouldn't it be great if you could take it just a little bit further? See if you can really make the whole thing click. It'd take a miracle to make much headway though...
Because using the Terraforming infrastructure, the Lotus-Reactor and the power up we are going to get together? I would bet that we can transform this place into a paradise for our followers, a still nice place to live for those who are kind of "meh" about actively joining our cult but don't plan to actively oppose us, and a literal super-mega-fun combined Daemon Death World for our enemies.

And if that doesn't work, or is not enough to fully stop the might of the 50k Imperium? Localized Warp Storms might be on table with the Spire's other mechanisms and all that stuff I talked about before boosting it. And if even that is enough? While the talk about VM's siblings popping up and starting shit at the same time while comparing it to a Deus Ex Machina is hilarious in this context, especially with the Azure Magus and her unlocked Restricted Domain? Well, AM has already popped in before, so I wouldn't really be surprised if she popped in again, maybe offering assistance in return of some help to her own problems.

So people, have some little faith in your QM. Even if things suddenly look bleak with admitedly pretty bad mood whiplash, these results are still from the scenario-table that Alectai had planned at least somewhat beforehand.

And we didn't actually completely fuck up our own situation, we just missed the Super Secret Golden Ending. We actually dissected pretty damn effectively our first real military challenge resolved by "narrative combat" after the tutorial fight which we also still managed to clear nicely with just some fumbling around. For the capital, we blew past all of their defenses that had been set up against us with just the absolute minimal losses. I'm not sure if anybody on our side actually died during the assault. Everything was just swept away without any slowing down from our forces. Space Marines, of course, are a whole another thing, but we can still be proud about our puzzle-solving skills in where we actually succeeded.

So lets just relax, and see what will happen in the next update before writing off everything as lost and the 40k grimderp being unavoidable, okay?

EDIT: Also, sorry for probably kicking off the whole toxic debate that went on for too long in the first place. I'm kind of easily panicking person about some matters.
 
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All right. Had time to finally cool my head after the sheer rage the update and the subsequent revelation of where we went wrong induced in me. And I've skimmed through the arguments and excuses and justifications people have posted in thread, so I wouldn't say I know exactly what y'all are saying. But I will say this.

After the Space Marines are dealt with, I'm gonna start advocating for what I call Reasonable Pacifism as an approach. Going all in on Quality of Life improvements and Charity actions, and only building up what military is needed to not get ganked. My lowest priority will be cult expansion, as that's what made us look like Chaos to begin with.

I don't care if that makes the game harder; this was Hard Mode from the get go. I don't just want to win, I want to get as close to the best ending we can get, now that the actual best ending is no longer an option. And constant escalation won't get us that.

Frankly, if I had some actual free time, I might have been able to see this coming. And that's what pisses me off more than anything else- if I'd been able to sit down and think this through, I might have been able to see what we were doing wrong.

I've seen a lot of people attack the tone of this post. To be fair @NeoDarklight saying 'if I had some actual free time, I might have been able to see this coming' makes it sound like you are blaming those of us who had more time than you, but that is not the substance of the post. The substance as far as I can tell is that we should focus on improving quality of life and not military of expansion, that we should try to re-litigate the the issue of Governor Magistrix with the entire Imperium.

There are two issues with this, first what is 'enough military force' to face a fascist colossus which has tyrannized the galaxy for over twenty thousand years? How could we possibly reach that point with expansion on the back burner? Secondly and most importantly what guarantee do we have hat the next person or persons in the Gouvernor's shoes will share his actual interest in quality of life improvements. I've already gone over how there was no foreshadowing for his caring. So what are we supposed to do, just blindly trust that it will happen again that @Alectai will give us the same conundrum with the same answer over and over again? I don't know about you but that sounds like a rather uninteresting game.
 
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A thing that occurs now (somewhat late :V) is that we might have expected too much from governor, and imperials in general.
Now, I fully realize that "maybe not being fascist is nice?" does not sound like much. But consider this: for twenty thousand years they lived in a fascist galaxy-spanning empire. Impreium stood four times longer than we, IRL humans, had writing, and on a million more planets than we have.

Governor, his father, his father's father and a thousand generations before had never ever known a system which was not an edifice of hate, intolerance and ignorance. And to top it all off, it seemingly won in the end.

So we probably should not jump the gun next time, if we have another similar choice, and have some patience with poor sods who inherited more historical inertia than we and our puny 5000 years of history on a single planet can comprehend.
 
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Governor, his father, his father's father and a thousand generations before had never ever known a system which was not an edifice of hate, intolerance and ignorance. And to top it all off, it seemingly won in the end.

I feel like this tries to build up an actual mass murderer into a victim, you once again get back to the whole denying of free will thing. Our entire cult from Dana herself to the newest initiate is a rebuke to that notion. People can let go of the poison that is the Imperium and many of them do. We should try to persuade as many of them as posibile, but there comes a point, there comes a line where you can no longer blame the system for your deeds. Planing and executing genocide is so far over the line you can't even see it on the horizon.
 
I feel like this tries to build up an actual mass murderer into a victim, you once again get back to the whole denying of free will thing. Our entire cult from Dana herself to the newest initiate is a rebuke to that notion. People can let go of the poison that is the Imperium and many of them do. We should try to persuade as many of them as posibile, but there comes a point, there comes a line where you can no longer blame the system for your deeds. Planing and executing genocide is so far over the line you can't even see it on the horizon.
You can be both a victim and mass murderer, yes; and I think we really lack a frame of reference for what 20000 years of cultural conditioning do to people.
It's not necessarily denial of free will, but we are shaped by our environment, and free will is not a magical wand which waves it all away.

I am not saying we should always forget and forgive, far from it; but we should keep in mind that they and everyone they've ever heard of have never heard of anything fundamentally different from their way of life. And perhaps be willing to slow down a little if it makes them more willing to break millenia of habit.
Risky, sure, but the Imperials willing to even talk to us are risking their lives anyway, so it's fair for us to risk something to talk to them in return.
 
You can be both a victim and mass murderer, yes; and I think we really lack a frame of reference for what 20000 years of cultural conditioning do to people.
It's not necessarily denial of free will, but we are shaped by our environment, and free will is not a magical wand which waves it all away.

It's not 20.000 years of conditioning though because there aren't many perpetuals around, it's their whole lives of conditioning and that is a thing that happened and still happens in real life, it's horrible and heartbreaking, but it does not excuse crimes, especially not crimes on the scale the Governor has perpetrated.

Personally I do not think you can be both a mass murderer and a victim and that is because I believe in human empathy, conscience and the generosity of the human spirit. I believe that no matter the cultural conditioning anyone who gets to the point of considering to push a button to kill millions of men women and children as lightly as you would wipe away a few columns of numbers feels on some level that it is wrong. Those that do it anyway... well they were once victims and it's OK to grieve for who they were and who they could have been, but the people they become in the act should be brought to justice, no more and no less.
 
It's not 20.000 years of conditioning though because there aren't many perpetuals around, it's their whole lives of conditioning and that is a thing that happened and still happens in real life, it's horrible and heartbreaking, but it does not excuse crimes, especially not crimes on the scale the Governor has perpetrated.

Personally I do not think you can be both a mass murderer and a victim and that is because I believe in human empathy, conscience and the generosity of the human spirit. I believe that no matter the cultural conditioning anyone who gets to the point of considering to push a button to kill millions of men women and children as lightly as you would wipe away a few columns of numbers feels on some level that it is wrong. Those that do it anyway... well they were once victims and it's OK to grieve for who they were and who they could have been, but the people they become in the act should be brought to justice, no more and no less.

I understand that you're trying to make a point about mass murder, but if we are aiming for moral purity on that level we never could have recruited retirees like Horatio. That man literally was willing to do anything to get his 20 years.
 
I understand that you're trying to make a point about mass murder, but if we are aiming for moral purity on that level we never could have recruited retirees like Horatio. That man literally was willing to do anything to get his 20 years.

No of course not. I would be fine with recruiting outright high imperial agents, governors, hell Inquisitors if any come our way, but not people who we know as a matter of cold hard fact committed genocide. I'm not saying we should run a background check on everyone who might enter our cult to make sure they did not say kill a surrendered enemy 20 years ago. Where you draw the line can and should be debated, I'm just saying that in my opinion it is about a hundred leagues behind where Gouvernor Magistrix was at the beginning of the quest.
 
No of course not. I would be fine with recruiting outright high imperial agents, governors, hell Inquisitors if any come our way, but not people who we know as a matter of cold hard fact committed genocide. I'm not saying we should run a background check on everyone who might enter our cult to make sure they did not say kill a surrendered enemy 20 years ago. Where you draw the line can and should be debated, I'm just saying that in my opinion it is about a hundred leagues behind where Gouvernor Magistrix was at the beginning of the quest.

Well, from how I see it Horatio literally had zero clue whether the VM was secretly lawful evil behind the friendly facade. And yet, he promised to do anything as long as his daughter was safe and he lived long enough to see her grandchildren.

I'm not seeing a lack of willingness for mass murder on his part. And that is what the Magistrix is doing, if I recall the definition of genocide correctly. Mass murder, not genocide.

All the difference between him and the Magistrix are the power they hold and the intervention of the VM.
 
Well, from how I see it Horatio literally had zero clue whether the VM was secretly lawful evil behind the friendly facade. And yet, he promised to do anything as long as his daughter was safe and he lived long enough to see her grandchildren.

I'm not seeing a lack of willingness for mass murder on his part. And that is what the Magistrix is doing, if I recall the definition of genocide correctly. Mass murder, not genocide.

All the difference between him and the Magistrix are the power they hold and the intervention of the VM.

That is your estimation of his mindset, the fact of the matter is we never put him in that position so he should not be punished for what we think he might have done. That is effectively punishing thought-crime which is falling into a different sort of evil altogether.
 
That is your estimation of his mindset, the fact of the matter is we never put him in that position so he should not be punished for what we think he might have done. That is effectively punishing thought-crime which is falling into a different sort of evil altogether.

And at the start of the quest the Governor had not yet called in Space Marines to kill thousands of people. He'd ground them under a horrible system, but he hadn't committed mass murder via phone call.

At the start of the quest, the Governor was as much of a victim as any of our Heroic Cultists was.
 
And at the start of the quest the Governor had not yet called in Space Marines to kill thousands of people. He'd ground them under a horrible system, but he hadn't committed mass murder via phone call.

At the start of the quest, the Governor was as much of a victim as any of our Heroic Cultists was.

It's not the space marines that are the genocide, called as such. it is his conversation with the Publicani offering such a tithe as to intentionally cause mass starvation which he had already made.
 
And at the start of the quest the Governor had not yet called in Space Marines to kill thousands of people. He'd ground them under a horrible system, but he hadn't committed mass murder via phone call.

At the start of the quest, the Governor was as much of a victim as any of our Heroic Cultists was.
Even after, the call wouldn't have happened if the Emperor didn't say no to human limits.
 
Can we stop discussing whether or not the governor is genocidal bastard? Discussing what we are going to do in the future and how all of this will affect Dana and our followers is one thing, but you guys are now just arguing about a deadman that will soon become irrelevant.
 
It's not 20.000 years of conditioning though because there aren't many perpetuals around, it's their whole lives of conditioning and that is a thing that happened and still happens in real life, it's horrible and heartbreaking, but it does not excuse crimes, especially not crimes on the scale the Governor has perpetrated.
Uhh... Iirc, he was trying to save as many people as he could, in his own twisted way.
Look:
If I need to cut off 80% of the population to ensure the remainder survive, I will do it without hesitation. That is--in fact--my responsibility.
40k has all kinds of one dimensional characters, and you may have automatically unconsciously classified the governor as such. He does have his reasons, just that they are stupid, evil and oppressive. Of course, this may be his self-justification, and he may be doing it for the sake of it, although I very much doubt that.

Personally I do not think you can be both a mass murderer and a victim and that is because I believe in human empathy, conscience and the generosity of the human spirit. I believe that no matter the cultural conditioning anyone who gets to the point of considering to push a button to kill millions of men women and children as lightly as you would wipe away a few columns of numbers feels on some level that it is wrong. Those that do it anyway... well they were once victims and it's OK to grieve for who they were and who they could have been, but the people they become in the act should be brought to justice, no more and no less.
Yes, you can, you very much can. While I won't attempt to convince you to rethink your beliefs, they are yours after all, cultural conditioning is scary. Done 'right', this kind of thing can really happen on a daily basis. With the Imperium, this kind of thing is likely done since birth. Empathy is an instinct, and can therefore be suppressed. And Imperial conditioning suppresses it hard.

Tbh I kinda empathize with the governor. The thing is that if I was in his position, together with his conditioning and such, I could very well see myself doing the same actions, and convincing myself that it was for the 'greater good'.

On a side note, since the governor was part of an Inquisitorial retinue, does that mean his fear of it has some weight? I mean, we waved it off as him just being indoctrinated to think such, but since he was at one point part of the Inquisition, he may very well know the Inquisition's SOP.
 
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It's just frustrating to see people write him off as 'Oh, he must have always been a bastard, the mass murder just proves it, there is no humanity in him' because that is a viewpoint that doesn't learn. Doesn't attempt to understand what twisted him that way, and try to make sure that the same doesn't happen to people who haven't yet been pushed to that awful decision.

Hell, if it weren't for us, Dana would be at that same precipice. And she could have fallen, just like the governor.
 
Uhh... Iirc, he was trying to save as many people as he could, in his own twisted way.

Something you could say of practically any Nurgle Cultist. Trying to save as many people as you can in your own twisted way while actually committing mass murder may be tragic, but I would save the empathy for the actual victims not the man who they curse with dying lips as their children cry of hunger beside them. That is just my cultural conditioning I guess.

It's just frustrating to see people write him off as 'Oh, he must have always been a bastard, the mass murder just proves it, there is no humanity in him' because that is a viewpoint that doesn't learn. Doesn't attempt to understand what twisted him that way, and try to make sure that the same doesn't happen to people who haven't yet been pushed to that awful decision.

I'm not saying he must have been a bastard I'm saying he was a mass murderer as proven by his acts. He deserved to be brought to justice for those acts and I only regret his death from two perspectives Dana's feelings and the fact that his victims and the families of those he killed did not get to see him stand trial.
 
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Something you could say of practically any Nurgle Cultist. Trying to save as many people as you can in your own twisted way while actually committing mass murder may be tragic, but I would save the empathy for the actual victims not the man who they curse with dying lips as their children cry of hunger beside them. That is just my cultural conditioning I guess.
Well... I wouldn't put him on the same level as a Nurgle cultist. Instead of trying to 'save' everyone via disease, what he was trying to do was to sacrifice those outside the capital to save those inside, with the other option being the genocide of the entire planet. The scariest thing is that given what we know about the Publicani, it makes sense.

Anyway, my point is that the governor is not evil. Extremely misguided, yes, with his traumas leading him to make extremely extremely bad decisions, but I wouldn't even put him near people like say Hitler, who he has been constantly compared to.
 
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