Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Travler66]

[X] (LIBRARY) Head Librarian
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Intersectional Research Department
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch of Intersectional Research
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch of Interdepartmental Research
[X] (BRANCH NAME) Karag Nar Institute of Generative Holistic Thaumaturgy
[X] (BRANCH NAME) Karag Nar Institute of General Holistic Thaumaturgical Studies
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks / Kron-Azril-Ungol / The Archive of the Silvery Depths

 

[ctulhuslp]

[X] (LIBRARY) Hands-off
[X] (LIBRARY) High-level policy
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Intersectional Research Department

 

[In_lurk_shadow]

[X] (LIBRARY) High-level policy

[X] (LIBRARY NAME) World's Memory / Karaz Kron


[X] (BRANCH NAME) The Sunrise Society
[x] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Institute of Research & Development
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Intersectional Research Department
[X] (BRANCH NAME) Karag Nar Institute of Generative Holistic Thaumaturgy
[X] (BRANCH NAME) Karag Nar Institute of General Holistic Thaumaturgical Studies
[x] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch of Esoteric Research

 

[Rafin]

This is nerve wracking. WEBER and WEBIR are equal and Head Librarian is just four votes ahead of Hands-off Policy.

And it's at least partially due to people changing their votes in older posts. Which is of course fine, just shocking when a tally after just one new post has changed by multiple steps.

 

[Shinji117]

[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch for Esoteric Research

 

[The Phoenixian]

[X] (LIBRARY) Head Librarian
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks / Kron-Azril-Ungol / The Archive of the Silvery Depths
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch of Intersectional Research
[X] (BRANCH NAME) Karag Nar Institute of General Holistic Thaumaturgical Studies
[X] (BRANCH NAME) The Sunrise Society

 

[TimEd]

[X] (LIBRARY) Head Librarian
[X] (LIBRARY NAME) The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks / Kron-Azril-Ungol / The Archive of the Silvery Depths
[X] (BRANCH NAME) World's Edge Branch of Intersectional Research

 

[LadyLynn]

As an aside, an interesting thought just occurred to me, and please forgive me if this has been brought up before: what would happen if the Eye of Gazul was used on a vampire? Could it perhaps true-kill them?

EDIT: ...I'm not misremembering when I'm thinking that vampires don't permanently die through mundane methods, right? I remember Alkharad being all "bluh bluh your descendants will fuck up on watching over my remains and then i'll be backkkk".

 

[Andres]

As an aside, an interesting thought just occurred to me, and please forgive me if this has been brought up before: what would happen if the Eye of Gazul was used on a vampire? Could it perhaps true-kill them?

EDIT: ...I'm not misremembering when I'm thinking that vampires don't permanently die through mundane methods, right? I remember Alkharad being all "bluh bluh your descendants will fuck up on watching over my remains and then i'll be backkkk".

Click to shrink...

The gist of it is that absolutely nothing works, not even the most true killiest of things.

 

[Sir_Travelsalot]

The gist of it is that absolutely nothing works, not even the most true killiest of things.

Click to shrink...

I mean, there's methods that do work most of the time, but there's always the occasional exception that will be back in time.

In the words of a Killer of the Dead (a person so proficient and dedicated to hunting and killing vampires that vampires fear them instead of the other way around): "Stake in the heart, cut off the head, burn it to ash, douse in holy water, scatter the ashes in four different provinces. Kills them nine times in ten." - pg. 119, Career Compendium

 

[Wiadi]

I mean, there's methods that do work most of the time, but there's always the occasional exception that will be back in time.

In the words of a Killer of the Dead (a person so proficient and dedicated to hunting and killing vampires that vampires fear them instead of the other way around): "Stake in the heart, cut off the head, burn it to ash, douse in holy water, scatter the ashes in four different provinces. Kills them nine times in ten." - pg. 119, Career Compendium

Click to shrink...

In the lore of the quest I'm pretty sure that's more down to "9 times out of 10 they haven't yet managed to recover from that because it is, y'know, A Lot" rather than actual true death.

 

[T_of_A]

I mean, there's methods that do work most of the time, but there's always the occasional exception that will be back in time.

In the words of a Killer of the Dead (a person so proficient and dedicated to hunting and killing vampires that vampires fear them instead of the other way around): "Stake in the heart, cut off the head, burn it to ash, douse in holy water, scatter the ashes in four different provinces. Kills them nine times in ten." - pg. 119, Career Compendium

Click to shrink...

That sounds like a good way to make a vampire reform in one of those four different provinces, unwilling to come back for a rematch.
I can see how someone could reach the conclusion that they've finally found a way to kill the unkillable in that situation.

Unfortunately IIRC BoneyM has so far been adamant that nothing works, and that most people have given up on testing new methods and simply keep them imprisoned and regularly de-fleshed.

 

[TempestK]

Kind of wonder what would happen if we used the second secret on their Dhar souls...

 

[kingreaper]

As an aside, an interesting thought just occurred to me, and please forgive me if this has been brought up before: what would happen if the Eye of Gazul was used on a vampire? Could it perhaps true-kill them?

Click to shrink...

Perhaps - if the flame of Gazul is capable of truly cutting the reinforced tie between their body and soul.

Of course only Mathilde knows enough about both vampires and the eye of Gazul to have a good idea that it might work, and I don't think she's willing to take the chance that it doesn't and they end up popping back up at some forgotten speck of flesh elsewhere.

 

[dinomannitro6]

As an aside, an interesting thought just occurred to me, and please forgive me if this has been brought up before: what would happen if the Eye of Gazul was used on a vampire? Could it perhaps true-kill them?

EDIT: ...I'm not misremembering when I'm thinking that vampires don't permanently die through mundane methods, right? I remember Alkharad being all "bluh bluh your descendants will fuck up on watching over my remains and then i'll be backkkk".

Click to shrink...

If it works its not burning shadows part doing it, its the death god part.

 

[allmightytoaster]

As an aside, an interesting thought just occurred to me, and please forgive me if this has been brought up before: what would happen if the Eye of Gazul was used on a vampire? Could it perhaps true-kill them?

Click to shrink...

"Well, we sure destroyed the bit of him that was here. Does that just free up his soul to respawn based on the next largest bit of them, wherever that might be in the world? We have no idea."

Click to shrink...

This was the closest Wog I could find on the issue. So other posters have it right, nobody knows or wants to risk it.

 

[Klaus]

Wait but wouldn't that limit your reading speed to the speed of speech?

Click to shrink...

Close to it. One of the key parts of speedreading is NOT subvocalizing.

 

[kingreaper]

Close to it. One of the key parts of speedreading is NOT subvocalizing.

Click to shrink...

However 'reading' fast enough that you can't subvocalise at all (EDIT: rather than only skipping certain words, the likes of 'of', 'and', and 'the') results in what is more properly called skimming than reading. You end up not actually knowing what the text was about. Your eyes will have passed over every point of the page, and your brain will have checked every word on the page for your list of words-to-look-out-for, but your conscious mind won't have had time to process it.

A relevant paper

 

[ReImagined]

This was the closest Wog I could find on the issue. So other posters have it right, nobody knows or wants to risk it.

Click to shrink...

Some more textual support:

- On the subject of anti-Vampire-reconstitution plans: the Witch Hunters have tried them all. There's a reason they keep Vlad locked up under the Grand Cathedral instead of doing something complicated and elaborate with his remains. Keeping it on your mantle and bopping it with a Dispel if it tries to regrow skin is the least bad plan, and there are entire rooms and Perpetual Apprentices dedicated to this in the Amethyst College.

Click to shrink...

Roswita pulls a seat from the table and very carefully does not collapse into it, and you pretend not to notice the shake in her arms. "So it's done."

"As done as things ever are with his kind. But he's not the first I've interred, and if anything happens to me there's a representative of the Order of the Guardians in Eight Peaks to take over the vigil."

Click to shrink...

Notably, the Order of the Guardians also keep vigil instead of more exotic disposal methods.

So from the facts:
- The Empire would like to kill vampires permanently.
- The Empire instead keeps vampire skulls locked up and under close watch.
- The Empire has access to Burning Shadows (and Pit of Shades, and <insert magic here>.)
- If Burning Shadows (and Pit of Shades, and <insert magic here>) could permanently kill a vampire reliably, then the Empire wouldn't keep them locked up under watch.

- The Dwarves would like to kill vampires permanently.
- The Dwarves instead keep vampire skulls locked up and under close watch.
- The Dwarves have access to Zharrvengryn.
- If Zharrvengryn could permanently kill a vampire reliably, then the Dwarves wouldn't keep them locked up under watch.

- The Eye of Gazul uses Burning Shadows and Zharrvengryn.
- Neither of those are considered sufficiently reliable to kill vampires permanently.
- Therefore, the Eye of Gazul is not considered sufficiently reliable to kill vampires permanently.

 

[consequences]

You would presumably have to cleanly untangle the knot of Dhar anchoring their soul to the world, and simultaneously force said soul onward to a destination disinclined to return it, while keeping any interested outside parties from interfering in the process. And by 'knot of Dhar' I mean 'sapient uncooperative regenerating Herdstone equivalent'.


So you just need to violate those pesky Articles, get an Order priest with significant oomph to go along with it, and probably have an at least medium tier diety running top cover, with a significant chance of failure and/or disaster. If I haven't gotten major portions of the problem completely wrong.

 

[Mopman43]

I mean, there's methods that do work most of the time, but there's always the occasional exception that will be back in time.

In the words of a Killer of the Dead (a person so proficient and dedicated to hunting and killing vampires that vampires fear them instead of the other way around): "Stake in the heart, cut off the head, burn it to ash, douse in holy water, scatter the ashes in four different provinces. Kills them nine times in ten." - pg. 119, Career Compendium

Click to shrink...

I personally think Boney takes the regeneration somewhat farther than canon, so those sources aren't going to have much weight here.

For quest purposes, the main issue with exotic methods is that you can't tell if it worked or not unless/until you hear about them resurrecting and causing trouble. And thus far, nothing has worked.

 

[kingreaper]

I personally think Boney takes the regeneration somewhat farther than canon, so those sources aren't going to have much weight here.

For quest purposes, the main issue with exotic methods is that you can't tell if it worked or not unless/until you hear about them resurrecting and causing trouble. And thus far, nothing has worked.

Click to shrink...

Setting aside whether 9/10 of the time it means they won't resurrect this century, or they won't resurrect ever:

The 1/10th that come back are probably the strongest 1/10th.

 

[consequences]

You also have to presume that if someone Pit of Shades or otherwise exotically no corpse wastes a vamp, forward thinking other vamps of the same bloodline may engage in some identity theft to muddy the waters and discourage people from using something that might just work.

 

[Klaus]

However 'reading' fast enough that you can't subvocalise at all (EDIT: rather than only skipping certain words, the likes of 'of', 'and', and 'the') results in what is more properly called skimming than reading. You end up not actually knowing what the text was about. Your eyes will have passed over every point of the page, and your brain will have checked every word on the page for your list of words-to-look-out-for, but your conscious mind won't have had time to process it.

A relevant paper

Click to shrink...

Your problem is your faulty premise:

It's a very loose estimate, and actually a high estimate, but my understanding comes from this study of information output rate which puts speech at 39 bit/s regardless of language, and a whole bunch of less-formal examinations of speed-reading for input rate which all come to estimates between 50 bit/s and 70 bit/s.

Click to shrink...

39 bit/s is the average rate of normal speech. People like John Moschitta Jr. (AKA The Micromachine Man, and Blur on Transformers) can talk at 4 to 5 times that speed and still be understood. And he isn't even the world record holder anymore.

In other words, your 'limit' of 1.5 to 2 times higher than 39 bit/s is empirically disproven.

 

[kingreaper]

39 bit/s is the average rate of normal speech. People like John Moschitta Jr. (AKA The Micromachine Man, and Blur on Transformers) can talk at 4 to 5 times that speed and still be understood. And he isn't even the world record holder anymore.

Click to shrink...

There's a difference between speaking (as in, putting a thought into words and saying those words) and reciting something memorised.

Having watched some of those fast-talkers now - they can talk at almost double (EDIT: actually 1.5x) speed, but only when reciting can they reach those stupidly-high record-level speeds. And I highly doubt you could actually understand them at 5 times speed - there's a reason all those ads John Moschitta's in are at double speed at most (EDIT: Listening to them at 0.75 speed they sound normal speed, aside from a lack of gaps, so I doubt it's even double speed, more like 4/3rds)

If anything it reinforces my point that subvocalising is not a limiting factor on reading speed - vocalisation speed can clearly go significantly faster than thought, and subvocalisation is faster than that!