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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Kornet said:
Honestly, I never understood the hype about lawmen being the One True Loremaster type. Runesmiths and engineers are tapped about as often, and Mathilde can be described as a runesmith stand-in with a particulary radical engineer's sensibilities and care for traditions.
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Because it is what they are there for?
To know the general lore about tradition, history, grudges, diplomacy, and almost everything not specific to someone else, poking weird shit is only one facet of it.
As useful as Mathilde may be, she can't do most of the actual day to day loremaster job, and the moment you no longer have weird shit that desperately needs poking at, a traditional loremaster starts looking lot more useful.
 
Valmond said:
Because it is what they are there for?
To know the general lore about tradition, history, grudges, diplomacy, and almost everything not specific to someone else, poking weird shit is only one facet of it.
As useful as Mathilde may be, she can't do most of the actual day to day loremaster job, and the moment you no longer have weird shit that desperately needs poking at, a traditional loremaster starts looking lot more useful.
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And...?

It is obvious that 247 people (myself included) don´t really care about legal technycisms like that...

We like Belelgar, we like K8P, we like the new possibilities of our job, we like working with Dwarfs, so that is why we are voting for it.
 
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Valmond said:
Because it is what they are there for?
To know the general lore about tradition, history, grudges, diplomacy, and almost everything not specific to someone else, poking weird shit is only one facet of it.
As useful as Mathilde may be, she can't do most of the actual day to day loremaster job, and the moment you no longer have weird shit that desperately needs poking at, a traditional loremaster starts looking lot more useful.
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I think the point is that this is pigeonholing the advisor slot into a narrower set of responsibilities than it actually contains room for (and not even just as a special Mathilde exception, as Kornet mentioned, not having a Law/Precedent Guru there isn't actually even uncommon.). I was pretty ready to retire from the position previously when I felt the opportunities had dried up, but once the actual At-Large job specifics were explained in more detail it seems pretty clear that the room for Mathilde's niche to usefully contribute hasn't actually closed. As an example, at the end of the day it doesn't necessarily matter if a clan decides to immigrate because of impeccably cited precedent, or because they all thought it was pretty rad the way K8P managed to kick those dragons out of Zhufbar.
 
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Sparsebeard said:
I've been wondering about that. Couldn't the Waystone project be done under Belegar's autority, the title of Loremaster would sure be useful to secure dwarven collaboration and such a project would be a decent way for K8P to project diplomatic power.
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It could be. Boney said that the first decision we make on the project would be "under whose aegis do we do this."
Alliterate said:
An pre-agreement that we will, within the first few years, take 100ish days leave to at last become one of the very, very few humans to step foot on Ulthuan, for our Elfcation.
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Yeah, I could support that.
Aranfan said:
I am still very bitter, I just don't want to be vocal about it and bring down the thread. So I'll say no more about it.
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I genuinely and seriously appreciate you putting a lid on your negative feelings for the sake of thread harmony.
Absoloot said:
Alright, only 40 more pages of Boney's comments. I'm hoping his responses alone will give me a decent enough overview of the thread discussion throughout this Expedition. Too bad you can't get SV to display the full comment on search though. Would make this whole thing speedier.
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My technique for "speeding through Boney's comments" isn't to use search; it's to go page-by-page and use CTRL F (or CMD F if you're on a Mac) for "ko-fi", which gets Boney's signature. If no hits, you can just advance to the next page.
Valmond said:
Other Dwarf King: "their actual job" :V
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I think the thread has really overblown the degree to which A Proper Loremaster Handles Laws and we are letting Belegar down. Think about it like a more conventional CK2 quest; Belegar could use his Learning slot on a history & law-focused Loremaster and spend his personal actions hobnobbing with his fellow monarchs to boost his standing, or he could use his Learning slot on a weird-shit-problem-solver-and-high-tier-hero and spend his personal actions resolving any legal or cultural disputes that come up. I would strenuously oppose the Loremaster Sinecure, but Loremaster-at-Large definitely provides huge amounts of value for Belegar by repaying his debts to the wider Karaz Ankor (or putting his brother-kings and sister-queen in his debt), and I don't think it costs Belegar actions so much as "shifting around what he does on his own time vs what his advisors take care of."
 
Angelform said:
I'm against. The transitional turn is for tying up loose ends (like the papers from the expedition) and continuing incremental projects (like the sword style). Not for seeking out yet more secrets we don't have the time and attention to actually investigate.
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I mean if Loremaster wins, we will be poking weird things through all of the Karaz Ankor... And that would include K8P from time to time, so we may very well end up researching the Deeps.
xpentakill said:
Well 244 other people are tired of Dwarfs. Hope loremaster loses
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And I hope that Loremaster win and Waysone loses...

But there is no clear winner here, and we have barely passed the 24 hour mark so let´s see what happens
 
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I would sincerely suggest that everyone voting start getting comfortable now with their un-favorite options winning. Just... relax.
 
CuttleFish2.0 said:
I would sincerely suggest that everyone voting start getting comfortable now with their un-favorite options winning. Just... relax.
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After the original list of options came out and we started voting on it, I spent a reasonable amount of time going through the list, thinking about all the ones I didn't want to win, imagining a world in which it had won, and trying to figure out "what aspects of the quest would I still really like" and "what unique aspects of this option would I appreciate despite my opposition to the option as a whole." It was a very good exercise for settling the anxiety that comes with emotional investment in an interactive piece of fiction, and I highly recommend it.
 
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Fanhunter696 said:
And...?

It is obvious that 247 people (myself included) don´t really care about legal technycisms like that...

We like Belelgar, we like K8P, we like the new possibilities of our job, we like working with Dwarfs, so that is why we are voting for it.
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Yes. And?
Question was asked, i attempted to answer it.
so far Belegar has managed to deal with things without a proper loremaster, and maybe he will continue to do so for the next couple decades.
That does not change that Mathilde, while very good at one part of the job, is not so great at other parts of it.

Thomasfoolery said:
I think the point is that this is pigeonholing the advisor slot into a narrower set of responsibilities than it actually contains room for (and not even just as a special Mathilde exception, as Kornet mentioned, not having a Law/Precedent Guru there isn't actually even uncommon.). I was pretty ready to retire from the position previously when I felt the opportunities had dried up, but once the actual At-Large job specifics were explained in more detail it seems pretty clear that the room for Mathilde's niche to usefully contribute hasn't actually closed. As an example, at the end of the day it doesn't necessarily matter if a clan decides to immigrate because of impeccably cited precedent, or because they all thought it was pretty rad the way K8P managed to kick those dragons out of Zhufbar.
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Not having a law/precedent guru should be, i think, fairly exceptional for a king.
And i don't think oremaster is being pigdeonholed to a narrower set of responsibilities here, it's the opposite, Mathilde does one part of it, but not others.
Traditional loremaster would poke at weird shit, and then delegate to local engineers, runesmiths or priests if needed, but they would also be able to cite law and tradition when those matters come up, and not having them come up would be pretty weird.

picklepikkl said:
It could be. Boney said that the first decision we make on the project would be "under whose aegis do we do this."

Yeah, I could support that.

I genuinely and seriously appreciate you putting a lid on your negative feelings for the sake of thread harmony.

My technique for "speeding through Boney's comments" isn't to use search; it's to go page-by-page and use CTRL F (or CMD F if you're on a Mac) for "ko-fi", which gets Boney's signature. If no hits, you can just advance to the next page.

I think the thread has really overblown the degree to which A Proper Loremaster Handles Laws and we are letting Belegar down. Think about it like a more conventional CK2 quest; Belegar could use his Learning slot on a history & law-focused Loremaster and spend his personal actions hobnobbing with his fellow monarchs to boost his standing, or he could use his Learning slot on a weird-shit-problem-solver-and-high-tier-hero and spend his personal actions resolving any legal or cultural disputes that come up. I would strenuously oppose the Loremaster Sinecure, but Loremaster-at-Large definitely provides huge amounts of value for Belegar by repaying his debts to the wider Karaz Ankor (or putting his brother-kings and sister-queen in his debt), and I don't think it costs Belegar actions so much as "shifting around what he does on his own time vs what his advisors take care of."
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I don't think it is overblown, as such, it is quite possible that the current situation will keep on working fine for decades, or it might not.
There is a reason why a proper loremaster training takes several decades, and it is not dawi being slow learners.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
I think the point is that this is pigeonholing the advisor slot into a narrower set of responsibilities than it actually contains room for (and not even just as a special Mathilde exception, as Kornet mentioned, not having a Law/Precedent Guru there isn't actually even uncommon.). I was pretty ready to retire from the position previously when I felt the opportunities had dried up, but once the actual At-Large job specifics were explained in more detail it seems pretty clear that the room for Mathilde's niche to usefully contribute hasn't actually closed. As an example, at the end of the day it doesn't necessarily matter if a clan decides to immigrate because of impeccably cited precedent, or because they all thought it was pretty rad the way K8P managed to kick those dragons out of Zhufbar.
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I disagree, and not just because I do not want loremaster.

The list of 'things we can do' as loremaster at large feel very 'here are some small things to do while Boney thinks up and actual plot.'

Again, loremaster-at-large doesn't have an underlining goal like the other options do.

Edgelord= Kill vampires, save a province

Bodyguard: protect a prince, protect? And empire.

Waystones: find lore, save the world.

Loremaster: potter around, help?

There is no real plot line we are signing up for with loremaster , just the promise of 'things'
 
picklepikkl said:
After the original list of options came out and we started voting on it, I spent a reasonable amount of time going through the list, thinking about all the ones I didn't want to win, imagining a world in which it had won, and trying to figure out "what aspects of the quest would I still really like" and "what unique aspects of this option would I appreciate despite my opposition to the option as a whole." It was a very good exercise for settling the anxiety that comes with emotional investment in an interactive piece of fiction, and I highly recommend it.
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What I want is Tactical Espionage Action. And the Waystone project has the least of that. Wissenland has the most, but alas it hasn't a chance.

Boney is a good enough writer that I won't drop the quest regardless.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
There is no real plot line we are signing up for with loremaster , just the promise of 'things'
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That's true, but:
  1. There are the existing large plot threads in the quest that we can tug at, like "what's the deal with gods being places that they shouldn't be"
  2. A more slice-of-life/episodic focus is a selling point of the job to a lot of people, not a problem they didn't consider
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I disagree, and not just because I do not want loremaster.

The list of 'things we can do' as loremaster at large feel very 'here are some small things to do while Boney thinks up and actual plot.'

Again, loremaster-at-large doesn't have an underlining goal like the other options do.

Edgelord= Kill vampires, save a province

Bodyguard: protect a prince, protect? And empire.

Waystones: find lore, save the world.

Loremaster: potter around, help?

There is no real plot line we are signing up for with loremaster , just the promise of 'things'
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The underlying goals for Loremaster are 'raise Belegar's standing in the Karak Ankor' and to a lesser extent 'give dwarves hope'. You can frame any option negatively or as ultimately goalless (bodyguard: 'potter around the empire on random adventures', waystones: 'try and look busy while flitting between people you know will never work together', etc) but that doesn't make it true.
 
picklepikkl said:
That's true, but:
  1. There are the existing large plot threads in the quest that we can tug at, like "what's the deal with gods being places that they shouldn't be"
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  1. All three of the other options are better for the divine stuff.

    Edgelord = bring back old gods

    Bodyguard= make nice with the 10 big cults And 100 or so small cults of the empire

    Waystone: deep lore.


    The other argument is fair enough. (I hate the idea, as I like the quest having a poker in the back) but fair enough.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I disagree, and not just because I do not want loremaster.

The list of 'things we can do' as loremaster at large feel very 'here are some small things to do while Boney thinks up and actual plot.'

Again, loremaster-at-large doesn't have an underlining goal like the other options do.

Edgelord= Kill vampires, save a province

Bodyguard: protect a prince, protect? And empire.

Waystones: find lore, save the world.

Loremaster: potter around, help?

There is no real plot line we are signing up for with loremaster , just the promise of 'things'
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Isn't the answer for this simply protect / help the Karag anchor in dealing with the things they are too homebound to deal with themselves and improve the standing of eight peaks in the eyes of the other holds.

Just because the job doesn't have an end doesn't mean it doesn't have a goal. Simply that it will never be 'finished'.

Edit - now that goal may not appeal to you and that's fine by me. But it does have a goal.
 
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Valmond said:
Because it is what they are there for?
To know the general lore about tradition, history, grudges, diplomacy, and almost everything not specific to someone else, poking weird shit is only one facet of it.
As useful as Mathilde may be, she can't do most of the actual day to day loremaster job, and the moment you no longer have weird shit that desperately needs poking at, a traditional loremaster starts looking lot more useful.
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My point is that knowing shit about laws and traditions is also just one facet, and one a lot of loremasters are frankly incompetent at.
 
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