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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
 
Andres110 said:
Not gonna work. The Great Deed only gets Electors to vote for us if they'd be neutral on the subject, and very likely none of them are interested in diluting their own power even before factoring in prejudices and the like.
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Not gonna work now. But as a long-term goal? I don't think it so impossible.

Redshirt Army said:
Ah yes, getting the Colleges of Magic an Elector Count vote, clearly this is a job for Mathilde "25 Intrigue" Weber.
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Fixed it for you. :V
 
BoneyM said:
A lot of that was on the back of Karl Franz and Thyrus Gormann working together for many years and with a great deal of mutual respect, which gave the Colleges a lot of influence and spurred KF to make the attempt. In the current day, Luitpold and Dragomas aren't especially close and Dragomas doesn't play politics anywhere near as much or as well as Gormann and Gelt do/did/will/will have done.
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Part of me feels this is related to Dragomas' resistance to wearing pants.

Redshirt Army said:
Redshirt Army said:
Ah yes, getting the Colleges of Magic an Elector Count vote, clearly this is a job for Mathilde "14 Diplomacy" Weber. :V
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In all fairness Mathilde is the one wizard who could get the cult of Sigmar on board by leaning on the Dawi.

Sigmarites view helping dwarfs as a religious obligation; if all the Hold rescuing and Grudge settling gets Thorgrim to owe Mathilde big time the Karaz Ankor's support could tip the balance.
 
Koraan said:
Seems like we have new goal here - get The Vote for Colleges. Whatcha think?
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We can do it... if we drop everything, grind diplomacy, invest every AP on this objective and roll extremely well.

Or we can just continue our heroics, so that wizards have better image and standing, so that actual diplomats have an actual chance to do it a few decades/centuries from now.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Ah yes, getting the Colleges of Magic an Elector Count vote, clearly this is a job for Mathilde "14 Diplomacy" Weber. :V
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I mean, I think we could do it if we committed to it, Diplomacy is a learned skill after all and I think Mathilde has the right accomplishments on her curriculum vitae that she could probably get a job on the council of most elector counts. Then it's just a question of convincing them of our position via a Mathildian amount of successful problem solving. And repeating that for a few more elector counts.

But that would require leaving our comfy Penthouse in K8P behind and getting stuck in the muck of Imperial Politics.

And that's awful.
 
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The main reason I don't see Mathilde getting the colleges a Vote has less to do with her stats and more to do with the fact that she has never really seemed interested in politics. Her go-too activity seems to be expeditions to the corner of the world and research actions.
 
Horium said:
I am really interested in picking Borek's brain (not literally!) on how he feels about being the Thane that recovered a Karak. A wrong Karak, but a Karak nonetheless. :V

Man, talk about irony. While the original goal of the expedition was to discover the fate of a dwarfhold (I know Borek hoped for more), the twin goals of discovering and breaking a daemonic siege of a dwarfhold is worth hell of an expedition by itself, and yet due to confluence of circumstances we managed to do it as an aside.

Even should the worst happen, he won't be labeled a fool and a madman by the dwarf posterity.

In a way, Borek's been already vindicated. He has already won.

Too bad that it all probably means little to him, unless his home is reclaimed as well.
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One interesting connection that Mathilde might make? Is; the way Belegar felt after reclaiming all of Karak Eight Peaks. (Hell, even the way he felt before he reclaimed all of the 8 Peaks; when he had reclaimed 3 or so of the Peaks. Even back then, he was having doubts if this was for the best for his people, because his people didn't even need the space. ... Then again, the maudlin mood may have been due to it being in the middle of the ceremony of a young Dwarf going Slayer. So, that probably had something to do with it.) And how she noted that she had once thought that Belegar would feel re-energized after completing the reclamation, but instead he just had heavier burdens.
Turn 23 Social said:
"If I truly cared for the safety and future of my people, I'd have never sought the forces to accomplish this," he says quietly. "Clan Angrund, sure, Clan Angrund never allowed itself to settle down, and would have marched towards extinction if someone didn't find a way to succeed. But the others? The Norgrimlings were comfortable in Zhufbar. Helhein were celebrated in Karak Norn. The Bronzefists had their own mountain in the Vaults - not the biggest mountain, nor the richest, but it was theirs. And a dozen other clans either considering or in the process of uprooting for the home none of their ancestors for three dozen generations has seen. The Karaz Ankor is not hurting for space - the entire lot of us could fit within Karaz-a-Karak these days. So if we don't need the space, and I'm not seeking to expunge Grudges with Dwarven blood, and I'm unable to retake the home of my ancestors without abandoning their ways, what am I accomplishing?"

"Karak Azul?" you hazard.

He remains silent for a while, and then exhales. "It's true. Their reconnection to the Karaz Ankor might not be possible any other way. But I find it difficult to find satisfaction in their Karak when my own is so diminished, and will never be otherwise in my lifetime."
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(Battle of the Caldera and Waaagh! Birdmuncha happens here, on Turn 25.)
Turn 25 Social said:
You nod, and for a long, quiet moment the two of you stand in silence, watching the work below. You think of the Emperor, of Dragomas and Algard, of Abelhelm and Frederick. "Sacrifice," you say eventually. "All worthy rulers sacrifice their time and effort. Some their lives. A few, even their sanity. But the hardest test is when it is their honour they are called on to sacrifice."

"My honour is my life and without it I am nothing," King Belegar says softly.

"And yours has taken a few hits because you've had to play politics for the good of the Karak," you say. "But I wouldn't still be here if you were so short on honour that this battering would destroy it."

King Belegar shakes his head. "Some say humans are Vornari. Perhaps a furrow in the soil can be smoothed over. But Dwarves are Durazi, and stone does not heal." You give him a flat look, and hold it in silence until he turns to face you, and then you turn your gaze to the ancient gates being restored below. He sighs. "Point made."
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Turn 26 From Revanche to Revamp said:
For the first time, King Belegar sits at the head of a meeting of the Council with a completed crown. Once, you would have believed that this King Belegar would have been one reborn, with the four thousand year Grudge of his family finally righted. But if anything, King Belegar is more bound by duty now than he ever was. He is responsible for more citizens of the Karak every day, and he has a responsibility to the Karaz Ankor as well, to his seven fellow Kings and to his High King. With the War for Karak Eight Peaks won, King Belegar's duty has only become more complicated.
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It's worth remembering though that, just like I noted "Hmm, this was in the middle of a young Dwarf going Slayer", this was shortly after some hard talks with Thorgrim too.

Compare it to the way Belegar reacted when we presented him with his Crown and all its jewels, and his resolution to defend his people and face Waaagh Birdmuncha.

Different situations, different emotions, different reactions.

There'll be ups and downs, basically.

That comes with being a ruler or with having responsibility. ... Hell, Mathilde wasn't very happy about reducing Castle Drakenhof to rubble despite the historic achievement, because her boss had died. Roswita was terrified of Wizards, but after the assassination of Alkharad turned the situation in Sylvania around? And after the arrival of and the getting used to of Battle Wizards... she was complaining about them being like damned cats, heh. And even after she reclaimed more parts of Sylvania, she still had to deal with unpleasant politics and politicking in the Empire. And yet, there's business to be done.

Ups and downs. Take your victories where you can. Take your joys where you can.

And don't beat yourself up too much for not being able to win perfectly.

... And sometimes, you can even achieve results you never would have believed even possible or were on the table. A million-man Waaagh? The language of the Skaven? An Aethyr-vanished Karak?

Borek has already accomplished something. And yes, it may not be the Karak he wanted... But think of how it will be viewed by those down south. And not in terms of prestige and awe. But in terms of "Do people believe in Borek's mission, or the possibilities or possible payoff thereof, or at minimum of the importance of getting good information on what is going up up north by Karag Dum and the value that any such information might hold?"

The reveal of Karak Vlag, means that people will have more interest and support in scouting Karag Dum. It means that even if somehow this mission has to turn back sooner or does not fully succeed... It might mean that people are more willing to believe in the possibility.

(... Of course, it's still possible for Karak Vlag to be another example of Skendanbryn, Stolen Hope. That is: if, after Vlag miraculously returns, if some Chaos Marauder army or Moulder raiding army wanders by and decides to exterminate the Dwarfs and set up camp in there, before the Karaz Ankor can respond to Vlag in time? It will be tragic and bitter and dark. But. We were already telling ourselves of the possibility that our hopes might fail, and we might strand Vlag in the Aethyr for good, and that ended up not happening. I think we can expand out a bit more hope, that reinforcements and messengers will reach Vlag in time, and that Vlag's story will have a happy end...)

(... If nothing else, Thorgrim will be glad to have a NET GAIN of one Old Hold recovered in his reign. Vlag, Dum, and Eight Peaks? Because Vlag and Dum were the first two Old Holds lost since Azgal in a long while. Eight Peaks was an unexpected return. So was Vlag. If we go 3 for 3, then... Then it would mean something delicate and incredible.)

(... Now if only the Norse Dwarfs weren't all vanished and dead and gone. Then, Thorgrim might start to feel like all his hopes and dreams that he started with -- finding lost cousins, returning with the news, proclaiming a new age of vengeance -- were not ground under the grim reality of the reaper's toll of the cost of the Great War Against Chaos. Because man, it must suck to be Thorgrim, to come into things with hopes and dreams... only to swiftly find them all falling to ashes.)
 
Garlak said:
(... If nothing else, Thorgrim will be glad to have a NET GAIN of one Old Hold recovered in his reign. Vlag, Dum, and Eight Peaks? Because Vlag and Dum were the first two Old Holds lost since Azgal in a long while. Eight Peaks was an unexpected return. So was Vlag. If we go 3 for 3, then... Then it would mean something delicate and incredible.)
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The thing with Dum is, even if they somehow, against all odds, are still holding out up north, what happens next? They are still stuck in the Deep Chaos Wastes. I don't think the Karaz Ankor can afford to regularily send convoys like ours to ferry the supplies and fresh troops they would need to hold out indefinitely. They have the treasure, sure, but they'd bleed out in terms of skilled manpower, especially since Chaos will adapt to prey on these convoys if they happen regularily.

Unless the Chaos Wastes recede somehow, Dum can't hold forever. Finding out they are still holding and having to make the decision on whether to keep throwing good Dwarves into a meatgrinder outside of good, fortified positions or abandoning Dum to its fate is a cruel one. It's entirely possible that the Dwarves will decide on honour over pragmatism, and if so this expedition will probably have done more damage to the Karaz Ankor than even the rediscovery of Vlag can make up for.
 
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
LightLan said:
Perhaps the Wastes have not receded, because the wayline had been interrupted at Vlag.
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Doesn't make sense, the Dum waystone was still operational and pumping magic out of the Wastes to Vlag, which is South enough that it probably doesn't count as the Wastes anymore. It is potentially possible that the reappearance of the Vlag waystone will be able to shift the Wastes back north from Kislev and help out with Praags Dhar issues, but it shouldn't make a difference for conditions up in Dum.
 
Garlak said:
One interesting connection that Mathilde might make?
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"One interesting connection that Mathilde might make?"

I actually meant to say not just connection, but comparison -- as in, she might share some of her own experiences with things, and her observations of leaders and rulers suffering similar things. And share that comparison and experience with Borek.

However, now I've actually had another realization for another Dwarf that might be feeling that way...
BoneyM said:
You can see realization hit Snorri. "But it's real," he says to the darkness, and scornful laughter is all he gets in response. Well, that and a third bolt, but he's already stepping out of the path of that on his own.
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BoneyM said:
"But it's real, they're safe now," Snorri says. "Shouldn't that count for something?"
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Snorri.

In fact, I wonder if we might possibly see a talk between all three of Snorri, Borek, and Mathilde?

Of them talking about Vlag and how they felt about saving it and so on? And how it didn't feel as triumphant as they thought they would. For various reasons.

And then Mathilde can chime in with her experiences with Drakenhof (and her first seeing a Barazul, an appraiser of oaths, there). And the ups and downs of the entire start, middle, and end, of Expedition-turned-conquest of Karak Eight Peaks. And of the new Elector Count of Stirland, Roswita, and Alkharad. And of after Alkharad.

... Hell, she can even bring faith into it. Kasmir, and his own path that he took after Drakenhof. Just... going out there and trying to do what personal good he could. Caring for people. Being among people. And then later, joining with Roswita, to help her out. And then the last time Mathilde saw him, he was working with native Sylvanians with their own gods and worship. ((Okay, yes, Mathilde doesn't like Sigmar. But she doesn't need to like him, in order to use Kasmir as a relevant example, if it helps serve her purpose. Also furthermore, she actually does respect Kasmir and the work he does!))

... Hell. Even absurdly legendary figures out of myth can feel this way. (Which is what people think Kragg is like.)

Because think of how Kragg felt upon being told about an Elemental with five runes on its soul. "Five Runes, you say. I can't even see them..." And how like hell is he going to give up! But he's well aware that he'll probably spend the rest of his life trying, and then failing, to uncover and understand the secret. ... And then the very next day, one of Kragg's creations ended up killing a million Greenskins, and saving Karak Eight Peaks. So. Y'know. It's not always gloom.

Thorek learned some sad things about Runesmith politics in the Karaz Ankor, and Karag Dum. And yet Thorek also ended up saying a few words and altering the Expedition's path to be more safe and secure, counseling them to spend the least amount of time in the wastes. (And isn't that an interesting and amusing butterfly to come of Mathilde's own efforts in the Karak Eight Peaks expedition!) And that change may be quite important for us right now. Too, Thorek is handing out recharges of Anvil Runes, thanks to Aethyric Vitae. And then the Calamity Rooms recently built in the Colleges of Magic. Sometimes the things you do might echo in the future, and come back surprisingly. Sometimes those surprises are nasty and sad. Sometimes not. All you can do, is do your best, and to take joy in life and in successes and victories where you can.
Chronic said:
The thing with Dum is, even if they somehow, against all odds, are still holding out up north, what happens next? They are still stuck in the Deep Chaos Wastes. I don't think the Karaz Ankor can afford to regularily send convoys like ours to ferry the supplies and fresh troops they would need to hold out indefinitely. They have the treasure, sure, but they'd bleed out in terms of skilled manpower, especially since Chaos will adapt to prey on these convoys if they happen regularily.

Unless the Chaos Wastes recede somehow, Dum can't hold forever. Finding out they are still holding and having to make the decision on whether to keep throwing good Dwarves into a meatgrinder outside of good, fortified positions or abandoning Dum to its fate is a cruel one. It's entirely possible that the Dwarves will decide on honour over pragmatism, and if so this expedition will probably have done more damage to the Karaz Ankor than even the rediscovery of Vlag can make up for.
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I'm wondering whether there's an Underway passage from Dum to Vlag to Karak Kadrin. (Actually, Vlag was noted as Karak Kadrin's brother or sister hold or something, wasn't it? So if any place has an Underway connection, it'd be Vlag to Kadrin. So if there's a Dum to Vlag connection, then...)

As for the Chaos Wastes... well...
LightLan said:
Perhaps the Wastes have not receded, because the wayline had been interrupted at Vlag.
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That. I hope.

Plus, a perhaps-forlorn hope that, whatever caused the Wastes to spread... Maybe we would find the answer to that in Karag Dum. Perhaps the lifting of the siege of Karag Dum -- or a narrative/thematically appropriate banishing of a Balrog -- will result in the Wastes receeding from Karag Dum.

... Well, okay -- I don't think that we will find that returning Vlag will solve Karag Dum's own problems so neatly and easily, forcing the Wastes to retreat back north in one fell swoop. But maybe in addition to something in Karag Dum itself too, perhaps. Or maybe the Wastes will start retreating slowly, now that stuff has happened. In which case... More men and fortifications to Karag Dum will be of help. And will make a difference.
 
Chronic said:
Doesn't make sense, the Dum waystone was still operational and pumping magic out of the Wastes to Vlag, which is South enough that it probably doesn't count as the Wastes anymore. It is potentially possible that the reappearance of the Vlag waystone will be able to shift the Wastes back north from Kislev and help out with Praags Dhar issues, but it shouldn't make a difference for conditions up in Dum.
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There is a difference to being a point that pumps away magic or being the end of a line that pumps away magic.
 
LightLan said:
Perhaps the Wastes have not receded, because the wayline had been interrupted at Vlag.
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Nah, that doesn't make any sense. The Winds of magic going to Vlag were being used, this would only make sense if the Winds were pooling in Vlag and thereby increase the ambient magic in the area instead they were being drained into the Ayther to power the anchorage spell.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
I mean there's been a lot of arguments. I could rehash them all over again but instead I'll state this.

We didn't expect Karak Vlag to be a possible threat that could destroy the expedition, turns out it was. The skaven could easily be mustering a force to destroy us, the same could be true about Uzkulak.
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We aren't going to the Moulder nerve center of their war theater on the Skull Road though, are we? We're going specifically to one of four towns/bases from which Qrech used to operate out of. Do we know anything additional as to why this one makes more sense to visit than any other Moulder base in the area?

And yes, I'm sorry for making you rehash arguments. The thread moves too fast for me to read all posts and I just semi-randomly latched onto yours as I flew over them, barely glancing at every third post or so.
BoneyM said:
Bury them and wish them better luck in the next life.
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Doesn't that risk seeding future Dwarf babies with pre-corrupted souls.
Also, how does their belief of reincarnation upon improper burial jive with the existence of the Dawi-Zarr? Is one of the reasons that it's terrible because you're just a bad roll of the dice away from being reincarnated over there, likely becoming someone that willingly writes over his eternal soul to Hashut?


Also, sorry again for just commenting on various snippets of the discussion. I read all of BoneyM's comments, all replies to me and a random assortment of others as I click next from page to page, but can't currently do much more than that.
And I know it's kind of unfair that I argue against something (visiting the combe) without actually reading every argument in favor of it. So if anyone wants to repeat the best arguments and directly address them to me then I'd be grateful.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Nah, that doesn't make any sense. The Winds of magic going to Vlag were being used, this would only make sense if the Winds were pooling in Vlag and thereby increase the ambient magic in the area instead they were being drained into the Ayther to power the anchorage spell.
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Vlag being inside the Aethyr itself still meant it's own waystone did not siphon magic from the surroundings.
 
Garlak said:
(... If nothing else, Thorgrim will be glad to have a NET GAIN of one Old Hold recovered in his reign. Vlag, Dum, and Eight Peaks? Because Vlag and Dum were the first two Old Holds lost since Azgal in a long while. Eight Peaks was an unexpected return. So was Vlag. If we go 3 for 3, then... Then it would mean something delicate and incredible.)
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I wouldn't be surprised if Thorgrim went slayer because of our actions to be honest. I mean, he must feel so ashamed and useless for not helping more and being outdone by a human.

Belegar, Borek and Mathilde are doing miracles left and right. He himself will be remembered for giving up and declaring the Silver Age over.

If anything, I think it might be a good idea to start chuming up with his presumptive heir... And, hell, if he could be replaced a more proactive leadership perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing for Dwarfdom.
 
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