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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Sinsystems said:
I think at the very least Internalize options should only appear after major events, revelations or operations and should be tied to the fallout from an action rather than a stat.

Edit: Also another idea maybe make it something we can take as a Free Time action.
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That seems the neatest way to do it, but it involves additional work on @BoneyM's part.


Basically instead of a generic Internalize Lessons actions, you have:
-Internalize Lessons: The Purge - Trains Martial, Diplomacy
-Internalize Lessons: Sleepers - Trains Intrigue

With less notable events simply not granting the option at all.
The problem is until the thread gets used to it, you get the old Spell Mastery problem: people will keep asking whether X minor event was overlooked.
Think of it as Mathilde settling down after an adventure to write it into her diary maybe?
Yes, its still an action tax, but that's the whole thing. If you don't take care to remember your lessons, they are oft forgot.
 
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I don't particularly like the current way that the system is set up either. Mostly, I blame the stat system, trait system, and flavor interacting with one another in an incomplete and awkward way.

Learning spells gradually increases Magic, which we need to enable better spells and avoid miscast rolls. Rolling to use spells uses Learning, which we need to boost success rates and mitigate the effects of failure. Achieving new options with magic is either not reflected on our character sheet at all (the matrix, which is a useful and specialized skill that's not even on Mathilde's sheet) or is shown there but doesn't advance her core competencies (enchanting, which opens new options but has no stat gains associated with it). Even our new Magister trait doesn't do anything to our stats, just has unlisted implications, largely social. So the development of our competence in magic is split among four different things (two stats, a trait list, and completely unstated things that you just have to know) which is awkward at best. There is no "get better at magic" action, which I think is intentional because of the comment about not wanting to incentivize grinding above, but this only means that we have to grind a bunch of different stuff instead of grinding one thing.

The other areas of Mathilde's competence are much less awkward, though the division remains. Train swording, and a skill pops up; eventually the skill becomes good enough to be reflected in the stats. That's simple and logical. But then what is core stat training and how does it fit into this? If skills are preferred as a development path, then if we wanted to train an Intrigue skill instead of just saying "grind Intrigue" in a flavorless way, what would we do?

Setting things up with a "learn by doing" paradigm where all traits and stats come from real-world actions taken instead of training actions would help keep things interesting, at least, and mean that Mathilde grows in ways that actually reflect what she does. But it would also mean that we have more actions to devote to doing things because we don't have to grind to become competent.
 
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What makes a stat increase?

Internalized Lessons: Has a false sense of scarcity, and difficult to keep interesting.
Internalized Lessons only after major events: Makes it an automatic pick which I want to avoid.
Being able to train whenever: Makes it too grindable and disconnected from the events going on.

Other possibilities:
Learn By Doing: It would have to be limited by something. Dice rolls? Maybe just a flat one in ten or something every time a trait is used, for an average of +1 to one characteristic every year? Maybe on a double for the first dice roll per action? This actually might not be a bad way to go about it, but it does mean that the players have zero control over it and can't 'focus' on it.
Skills: "Why did Mathilde learn about this odd esoteric and probably useless thing?" "For the characteristic increase." I'm not sure whether this would be gamey and unrealistic or actually kinda flavorful, Mathilde seeking out new facets of a particular skill to learn. Limits itself because you have to find new things to learn, new people to learn from.

Thoughts?
 
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Mr Apollo said:
While I am all for compromise at this point my vote has been up long enough and has enough support that I do not feel comfortable pulling a bait and switch. Gong farmers is almost certainly not a make or break choice for many of my supporters but I cannot know for sure. I've already outlined why I did not select to study the swords previously and no argument has arisen to change my mind.
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Bit late to the discussion with the vote now over, but I just wanted to add: Shoring up the Gong Farmers is actually the main reason I voted for your plan.

Most other plans are leaving them doing what they've always done, in a state of status quo limbo, while we go off to war. They're the dregs of society, so they're used to it, but I just don't feel right about it. So if you'd removed that, I would've voted for... I don't know. To paraphrase an old saying, "Hold your nose and vote for the least foul option".

Ironic how the option involving the poop guys is the choice that I feel doesn't stink. :confused:
 
The last option of Skills based stat increases seems like the more interesting option to me. It's always gonna be a bit gamey, because it is a game and people like feeling strong, but atleast this way there's something of interest being done at the same time.

I also like the idea of receiving stat increases for achievements. Or traits. Like the one we got for finishing the matrix. Both flavorful and powerful.
 
I'd suggest make stat increases "automatic", in that every time something @BoneyM deems "sufficient", he rolls to see if it also increases our stat (so he could for example do a hidden roll after all our learning and sneaking this turn to see if we learn anything from it. Possibly limit it to one stat each turn, with a vote "what does Mathilde reflect over in the last 6 months: [list of actions and stat to increase]"
BoneyM said:
Learn By Doing: It would have to be limited by something. Dice rolls? Maybe just a flat one in ten or something every time a trait is used, for an average of +1 to one characteristic every year? Maybe on a double for the first dice roll per action? This actually might not be a bad way to go about it, but it does mean that the players have zero control over it and can't 'focus' on it.
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That could also work, and we would have some level of control over it: do a lot of martial actions, martial is more likely to increase. Sneak around, interrogate and kidnap folks, Intrigue will likely go up. And so on.

As a tangent (perhaps slightly off topic): since either a majority, or a loud minority, is vehemently opposed to "Hogwarts Headmaster Quest", does such a thing exist (I can accept "Hogwarts Teacher Quest" as well)? Because it is something I think I would love to read and participate in. Does not have to be literal Hogwarts/Harry Potter of course, but the general theme of teaching apprentices, dealing with faculty, balancing work and private time, and shaping the very pillars of creation to get that comfy spot when you want to sleep...
 
BoneyM said:
Learn By Doing: It would have to be limited by something. Dice rolls? Maybe just a flat one in ten or something every time a trait is used, for an average of +1 to one characteristic every year? Maybe on a double for the first dice roll per action? This actually might not be a bad way to go about it, but it does mean that the players have zero control over it and can't 'focus' on it.
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I think this might be the best way to go about it, it makes sense to get better at the things you do more often anyway. Combine it with the possibility to focus on a specific subject with trainers that completely replaces internalize and it would pretty well I think.
 
BoneyM said:
Other possibilities:
Learn By Doing: It would have to be limited by something. Dice rolls? Maybe just a flat one in ten or something every time a trait is used, for an average of +1 to one characteristic every year? Maybe on a double for the first dice roll per action? This actually might not be a bad way to go about it, but it does mean that the players have zero control over it and can't 'focus' on it.
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You couldmake it similar to spell masteries, I. E. that Mathilde gains stats when you feel like she's done something that demonstrates/'deserves' a boost. In addition to some of the current mechanics of skills and Traits.

Of course, that would probably make the problem of "We just blew up a vampire with few casualties, why didn't we get anything?" worse than it already is.
 
I'd go with a system where after something is achieved @BoneyM rolls some dice to see if a stat increases with a DC depending on how impressive the action was, ie . the more impressive the lower the DC and if we succeed we gain Stats and if we crit maybe a trait.

Also @BoneyM how are you handeling the effect of our magic on our ability to sneak and do intrigue stuff?
 
BoneyM said:
What makes a stat increase?
<snip>
Thoughts?
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Orthogonally to most of the commentary on in what manner here, I'd like to chime in on how much. Consider what kind of stats you want people to have after a forty-year career, scale down rate and size of stat increases appropriately.

Imagine that a General Oldman von Hypotheticarl has been taking a training-like action every turn of his forty-year career; has he gained 40 Martial points from that? Presumably not, or he'd match Asarnil, which shouldn't be the case.

Could work by making training opportunities a lot more sparse, or making the difficulty scale up sharply. For example, if it's a roll of d100 against a difficulty of 4*Stat, (base) stats are going to stall at 20 and cap at 25.
 
BoneyM said:
Thoughts?
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Well-used model is "stats and trait changes happen by themselves, skills are trainable".

I'm in love with "internalizing is writing down" idea. That way we'll have something written every time we train a stat, which we can use for something: publish, send to the College, use as blackmail material, improve our library, whatever. I don't feel it's in character but it's very neat idea I may steal one day.
 
No7sHere said:
Also @BoneyM how are you handeling the effect of our magic on our ability to sneak and do intrigue stuff?
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Narratively. New spells give Mathilde new options. When you nabbed Petr von Stolpe, you did so by walking through the halls and mindholing anyone that saw you. If you did the same today, you'd have a lot more options for remaining unseen - Mathilde would cloak herself in Shadowcloak and Take No Heed, and Mindhole would be a backup.
 
vsh said:
Well-used model is "stats and trait changes happen by themselves, skills are trainable".

I'm in love with "internalizing is writing down" idea. That way we'll have something written every time we train a stat, which we can use for something: publish, send to the College, use as blackmail material, improve our library, whatever. I don't feel it's in character but it's very neat idea I may steal one day.
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I just want Mathilde to write down her experiences as a series of totally-not-based-on-true-events novels.
 
I'll be retiring Internalize Lessons after this turn, and base characteristic increases are being surrendered to dicerolls when narratively appropriate. If you really want to spend actions on stat increases, all skills when Proficient will give +1 to the relevant stat on top of narrative bonuses to using it, and hopefully learning Dwarven War Yodelling for +1 diplomacy will be less of an autopick than Internalized Lessons for the same.
 
@BoneyM so the spells have purely narrative effects or do they modify the DC's in the sense that they will affect what is possible for Mathilde to achieve? I'm just asking since the spells should make us massively more effective at being sneaky than anyone could be without them and we'll need all the advantages we can get if we want to achieve success against Goblins and Skaven.
 
BoneyM said:
What makes a stat increase?

Internalized Lessons: Has a false sense of scarcity, and difficult to keep interesting.
Internalized Lessons only after major events: Makes it an automatic pick which I want to avoid.
Being able to train whenever: Makes it too grindable and disconnected from the events going on.

Other possibilities:
Learn By Doing: It would have to be limited by something. Dice rolls? Maybe just a flat one in ten or something every time a trait is used, for an average of +1 to one characteristic every year? Maybe on a double for the first dice roll per action? This actually might not be a bad way to go about it, but it does mean that the players have zero control over it and can't 'focus' on it.
Skills: "Why did Mathilde learn about this odd esoteric and probably useless thing?" "For the characteristic increase." I'm not sure whether this would be gamey and unrealistic or actually kinda flavorful, Mathilde seeking out new facets of a particular skill to learn. Limits itself because you have to find new things to learn, new people to learn from.
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I like the skill option. I guess I'm not too worried about Mathilde chasing useless skills when there are so many useful things to learn already. I mean, right now, we could revise her character sheet so that her magical abilities are tied into skills which are tied into traits and have her be basically the same in capabilities while writing out her prowess in skill/stat form, for something like this:

Petty Magic (Proficient): +1 Learning, +1 Magic
Lesser Magic (Proficient): +1 Learning, +1 Magic
Lore of Shadow (Proficient): +1 Learning, +1 Magic
Expert Lore of Shadow (Beginner)
Matrix Caster (Proficient): +2 Learning
Enchanter (Proficient): +2 Learning

Likewise for other stats- if there's no "internalization" action we can push Mathilde more easily to develop skills that we want to see her use. There are useful skills in every stat that we don't have. Here's some examples.

Diplomacy - Law, Imperial Noble Culture, Dwarf Culture
Stewardship - Economics, Construction, Fief Management
Martial - Tactics, Command, any weapon skill
Intrigue - Stealth, Manipulation, Poisoning
Piety - Faith of Ranald, Imperial Religious Lore
Learning - basically all our magic advancements, any scholarly topic

I would much rather have voted for Mathilde to study Expert Lore of Shadow, Expert Enchanting, and Faith of Ranald this turn than Learning, New Spells, and Piety. The less specific options are more abstract and general but they're also more bland.


Combine this with some elements of Learn By Doing- crits could sometimes provide one-level increases in skills (Beginner to Intermediate, etc.) and an action-packed series of events could sometimes trigger trait votes as we had post-Drakenhof, with the traits affecting stats.
 
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No7sHere said:
@BoneyM so the spells have purely narrative effects or do they modify the DC's in the sense that they will affect what is possible for Mathilde to achieve? I'm just asking since the spells should make us massively more effective at being sneaky than anyone could be without them and we'll need all the advantages we can get if we want to achieve success against Goblins and Skaven.
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They don't directly modify the DC in any stratified way, but it would be an easier DC to remain hidden from a maddened squig if you're wrapped in appropriate spells.
 
So I've just caught up. Excellent quest by the way @BoneyM

Can someone explain to me what sort of scale we're using on the crusader kings stats? There's such a massive variance by quest in what is considered good/average/decent/great that it's very hard to tell what the numbers represent.

And since I just saw the discussion on levelling up stats, ugh on using dice. I much prefer it being up to the GM's discretion as it can otherwise have situations such as 'your character fought the best, most well planned military campaign in centuries and learned nothing." Although if dice rolls are done behind a screen (are they?) I suppose it can be fudged somewhat.
 
BoneyM said:
What makes a stat increase?

Internalized Lessons: Has a false sense of scarcity, and difficult to keep interesting.
Internalized Lessons only after major events: Makes it an automatic pick which I want to avoid.
Being able to train whenever: Makes it too grindable and disconnected from the events going on.

Other possibilities:
Learn By Doing: It would have to be limited by something. Dice rolls? Maybe just a flat one in ten or something every time a trait is used, for an average of +1 to one characteristic every year? Maybe on a double for the first dice roll per action? This actually might not be a bad way to go about it, but it does mean that the players have zero control over it and can't 'focus' on it.
Skills: "Why did Mathilde learn about this odd esoteric and probably useless thing?" "For the characteristic increase." I'm not sure whether this would be gamey and unrealistic or actually kinda flavorful, Mathilde seeking out new facets of a particular skill to learn. Limits itself because you have to find new things to learn, new people to learn from.

Thoughts?
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My opinion:
-Internalized Lessons - Gone

-Internalized Lessons after major events - Make this a Write Memoirs option. Much like the post Purge vote, we get the option to gain or evolve traits from pivotal moments.

-Training - Only up to base stat 8 without a trainer(representing human average). Up to base stat 10 with a trainer, after which this goes towards developing circumstantial proficiencies if applicable, or the trainer shakes their head and says this is the limits of what they can teach.

-Learn By Doing - Track XP for each stat. For an activity to be worth XP, it has to be actually challenging(though not necessarily risky) for your level of skill. Slaughtering dozens of zombies is great for a Martial 10 foot soldier to be blooded to a Martial 12 veteran, but to a Knight its just tuesday.

-Skills/Proficiencies - Make them add circumstantial bonuses, like Gustav is mediocre when he's not mounted and with pistols, but an ace when he is. If you want a bonus to your total general score, you need to pick up enough proficiencies to merge them into a broader understanding trait. Sort of how Abelhelm can teach us Interrogator, but it's simply part of his Senior Witch Hunter trait.
 
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