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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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It turns out Loec is separate from Ranald and he was there in the fight watching in the sidelines and that's why Deathfang smelled him on us :V
 
mathymancer said:
Addaioth is described in myth as kind of a loser, a wannabe Vaul who doesn't hold a candle to the real deal - volcanic eruptions are sometimes said to happen because he keeps throwing fits after making shitty swords. It would be pretty weird for a craftsmen to dedicate themselves to Addaioth rather than to Vaul, and honestly it would be kind of weird to dedicate onself to Addaioth at all, he's kind of pathetic.

Eonir production of firearms doesn't make sense to me regardless because the Eonir making firearms can only happen if the pro-contact bloc wins, but in that context there's also going to be trade with the outside world, and the outside world includes people who have experience making firearms, including the Karaz Ankor. House Miriel was concerned about superior Asur goods competing with their goods and hurting their prestige, when it comes to hypothetical Eonir firearm production those kind of fears are completely justified.
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Addaioth is an inner ring god among the Asrai. They give him a bunch more respect than the Asur and Druchii do. Eonir might be the same, so Addaioth may in fact have cultists, and if that's the case, it's not inconceivable that those cultists would experiment with gunpowder.

Firearm production is tricky. Nuln produces them in greater quantity and quality than what the Eonir would initially be able to achieve, which would ordinarily hamper native development of firearms, but that assumes Nuln is exporting firearms to the Eonir. Given they're a foreign power and all, and elves besides, maybe they won't. In that case, the Eonir may set up their own production, possibly poaching human talent to give them a head start.

I do remember some sort of Boneypost explaining why the High Elves don't use gunpowder weapons though, but can't remember any of the specifics. The reasons from that post may hamper large-scale adoption of gunpowder weapons by the Eonir.
 
Andres said:
I do remember some sort of Boneypost explaining why the High Elves don't use gunpowder weapons though, but can't remember any of the specifics. The reasons from that post may hamper large-scale adoption of gunpowder weapons by the Eonir.
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IIRC, the canon reason was to the effect of 'consider how noisy, clumsy, hazardous and rank blackpowder firearms are, and then consider that elves have much more acute senses than humans'.
 
While I have no idea what the Boneypost said I imagine the problem boils down to this:
Gunpowder weapons mostly beat bows on ease of use.
Which matters a lot more when you're dealing with not-quite-horde but close humanity that only has like three-four decades before old age starts to sap their strength, ignoring the mountains of bodies you need to throw at the gribblies.
Meanwhile, an Elf can git gud for hundreds of years so she can think about tertiary levels of mastery like how to nail someone in the eye because they didn't hear the arrow coming versus making sure they do hear it in time to duck right into your shot.

That Addioith becoming the Elven God of Guns sounds like a way for Elvish gunners to become a thing but I could also see that cult getting bullied by Vaulites once they git gud enough at gun-making to draw the Forge-Father's attention, versus falling into the current myth of why volcanos explode every so often, because the god is malding over sucking again.
 
The HElves don't use gunpowder because their bows are far more accurate at range, with equivalent armor penetrating power, and a higher rate of fire. They also don't age fast enough to really benefit from guns being quicker to pick up than bows, not do they have the numbers to benefit from their greater ease of construction.

And really, if Warhammer guns reach the point that they handily outclass bows on a per-weapon basis, the Asur will be rich enough to just buy them until they can figure out construction themselves.
 
Think I found it:
Boney said:
What do you have to do to find one thousand humans willing to work in your factory? Oh, never mind, someone overheard the word 'factory' and there's already a line forming outside the door.

What do you have to do to find one thousand Asur willing to work in your factory?

This isn't about whether they're capable of doing it at all. I'm sure the Asur could build a very fine factory. You know, eventually. By the time they've worked out how to avoid the possibility of workers getting mangled in the mangle, the human factory is has celebrated ten years of operation and have gotten quite good at fishing out errant body parts without having to halt production. Maybe the Asur be able to find enough down-on-their-luck Elves to work in this shiny new factory, though I'm sure the price of even unskilled labour on Ulthuan would be vicious. What about the tenth factory? The hundredth? How much of a reserve army of labour does Ulthuan have?

The Elves wouldn't be incapable of making a blackpowder army happen if they really put their minds (and treasuries) to it, but why would they? Artisanal weapons with highly-skilled users harmonizes perfectly with Asur culture and lifespans. That's why their militia has a skill level comparable to that of a human professional soldier. Guns play to strengths that the Asur don't have, and make up for weaknesses the Asur don't have.
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I would like to point out that I posted that exact quote last page and elaborated on it further with my own points.

Parabola said:
It would be a lot more work for elves as a society to start picking up guns than to just keep using their bows. Other factors that didn't get mentioned in the quote above:
  • One big benefit guns have over bows is that it's easier to pick one up and reach a basic level of mastery with them, which makes it easier to crash-train people in. Bows take longer to train in... but that's not a problem for elves, who live long lifespans and who thus, as a general rule, can all be expected to at least pick up the basics of combat to be in a militia (living centuries means you're more likely to eventually face what humans would call once-in-a-century Beastherds or Waaaghs).
  • Elves already have millennia of expertise making bows and then enchanting them. We know they can breed special trees to make bows and arrows out of. It'd be a lot more work to not just make their own guns but also learn how to make special bullets for them.
  • The Eonir specifically would probably have more trouble obtaining gunpowder than humans would given that they live in a giant forest.
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Someone who is better at historical chemistry than me correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't gunpowder require saltpeter? Because as I understand it, there were historically two ways to obtain saltpeter IRL. Firstly, to mine it from specific caves, usually in places where there is a large buildup of bat guano. Or secondly, produce it directly via various methods that typically involve large amounts of human urine or excrement. Now, given the much smaller population size, and also smaller population density, of the elves in Ulthuan, can they even gather enough poop or urine to actually produce potassium nitrate on any kind of scale? And even if they could, would there be that many elves destitute enough that they would accept a job managing this incredibly gross, smelly processing of bodily waste?

My feeling is that if Asur artisans decided to put in the effort make firearms, they absolutely could, and they would be excellent guns, but they'd probably be vastly different than human ones, in ways which would fit elven sensibilities and strengths in terms of both crafting and use. For example, they might swap out the black powder for some magically active powder charged with Aqshy, try to incorporate Chamon somehow to improve accuracy or reliability instead of or in addition to, developing rifling.

Such a weapon would no doubt be way better than a regular human firearm on an individual level, and be an absolutely beautiful piece of equipment to boot, with like, lacquered stocks and designs incorporating Asur iconography as inlay. But it wouldn't be mass produced or wielded en mass by units of militia in place of longbows or spear and shield, it would be at best a really nice type of ranged weapon that the occasional particularly young and daring elven nobles commission for their own use, as much out of a desire to be different or thumb their noses at more traditionalist rivals than anything else. At worst, it would be a one-off named item created by a single artisan, yet another 25 pt magic item in the high elf army book whose description says it's the only one of its kind because their creator either died or didn't bother making more. The kind of dubiously practical weapon that ends up in a museum collection later, like those IRL gun-swords nobles with more money than sense commissioned.
 
I am surprised prejudice against anything Dwarven hasn't been brought up much. You tell them that both human and dawi like it, the Asur will instinctually steer clear. (Mostly)
 
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Boney said:
You fall in beside him, and as you do you are surprised to see that upon his back, as well as the expected bow and quiver is a firearm, and what looks to be a well-made one at that. "Is that a handgun?" you ask, having to use the Reikspiel word as if Eltharin has an equivalent, you don't know it.

He looks at you in confusion, and you nod to his back. "Ah, this," he says, drawing it. "Handgun. A gift from your Graf, and so very entertaining. So much more energy imparted than a normal arrow, and for so much cheaper than the special arrows! Noisy, yes, and so slow to prepare a second shot, but that just means the first must be made to count." He sights down it at a clump of reeds. "Some might decry its lack of accuracy, but if you can't get close enough to take a shot, you don't deserve to."
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I don't think the Eonir will be fielding entire armies of longguns anytime soon, but I also don't think it's the case that there's no demand or use-case for firearms at all. And even with the expansion of the walls, I don't think the constant quiet race to stand out as an artisan that the average cityborn is described as participating in will actually go away, just be lessened. SOMEBODY will at some point try to establish themself as the local gunsmith as their attempt to stand out.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
I mean, dwarfs also like axes, far more and for longer than they've ever liked guns, but you don't see the White Lions giving theirs up.
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I suspect that seeing elves use axes that are as good or better than Dawi axes probably pisses off the dawi more than the prospect of using similar weapons to the dawi annoys the elves. Which is just an added incentive to keep using them as far as the Asur are concerned.
 
Andres said:
Firearm production is tricky. Nuln produces them in greater quantity and quality than what the Eonir would initially be able to achieve, which would ordinarily hamper native development of firearms, but that assumes Nuln is exporting firearms to the Eonir. Given they're a foreign power and all, and elves besides, maybe they won't. In that case, the Eonir may set up their own production, possibly poaching human talent to give them a head start.
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I actually think building their own firearm production would be quite unlikely, and not for the reason you'd think: lack of space. You'd need a lot of space to set up foundaries for cannons (and a lot of metal and fuel), and even small arms would be the kind of thing that you'd need a workshop for beyond the modest setup you'd need for making swords and spears.

Making guns is actually not easy; there's a lot of skill in being good gunsmiths. Nuln and Altdorf have centuries of experience in making firearms; even Hochland has experience in making its own long rifles.

There is also the labor cost. Human manufacturers are going to be making guns far more cheaply en masse than elves in Tor Lithanel making small numbers of guns experimentally. Forestborn buying guns at kinds of prices smiths in Tor Lithanel making artisinal firearms without experience? I can't imagine that being readily affordable compared to buying a bulk-produced product from a Middenland trader.

As for the Empire not being willing to sell to the Eonir, I doubt it. Laurelorn was only briefly considered a threat by Nordland, and even that has been mollified somewhat by the Empire building ties with Laurelorn like never before. Middenland clearly wants to sell them to Laurelorn given that the Graf already gave out guns as gifts to some of the Eonir and they expressed a great interest in opening a trade route (and the whole being allies thing). From the Empire's perspective, an isolationist neighbor is becoming less isolationist and appearing more friend-shaped, and selling them weapons they don't produce domestically is a great way to reinforce friendly ties while also showing that you don't view them as a target (because you wouldn't be selling them powerful weapons if you wanted to fight them). The Emperor is smart and his foreign policy chief is very smart; if Nuln doesn't start putting quality guns on trade caravans going through Middenland to Laurelorn, Altdorf is going to sooner or later.
Andres said:
I do remember some sort of Boneypost explaining why the High Elves don't use gunpowder weapons though, but can't remember any of the specifics. The reasons from that post may hamper large-scale adoption of gunpowder weapons by the Eonir.
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Black powder is a bit smelly, but it's not a foul smell. Foul smells would be butchering animals, dealing with the corpses of the dead after a battle, or dealing with rotten foodstuffs.

It makes sense that the Asur would not feel like the metal-intensive gunsmithing industry and tactical limitations of blackpowder weapons aren't worth going for over the tried and true flexible bow (supplemented by magic supplementing good old fashioned melee weapons), but the Eonir have very different tactical/strategic concerns. The Eonir are worried about a beastherd and the threat of a line of charging minotaurs inside their forest, or needing a strong weapon to strike from surprise against a particularly tough foe. The Asur are concerned with druchii raiders and invaders acting like highly skilled, tactically adept soldiers invading over varied terrain and in various circumstances.

As well, for the Eonir, they wouldn't need their own industry to churn out guns and cannons, they could just buy them from their neighbors, along with gunpowder (presuming they don't produce their own powder). No need to build another tech tree from the ground up; you've got the source at your doorstep happy to sell to you.

reignonyrparade said:
I don't think the Eonir will be fielding entire armies of longguns anytime soon, but I also don't think it's the case that there's no demand or use-case for firearms at all. And even with the expansion of the walls, I don't think the constant quiet race to stand out as an artisan that the average cityborn is described as participating in will actually go away, just be lessened. SOMEBODY will at some point try to establish themself as the local gunsmith as their attempt to stand out.
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To the average Eonir forestborn, a gun represents a single shot at a foe that is exponentially more powerful than any non-enchanted arrow you could shoot at someone. And it's far more affordable to fire a gunshot than it is to maintain a stock of enchanted arrows (and there are limits to what affordable enchantments on arrows can do). And cannons? That's the kind of weapon that can kill even the toughest foes dead from afar, all without any magic.
 
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The average forestborn will have spent decades to become a master at woodcraft, archery and fletching.
Also probably gotten some rudimentary skills at enchanting arrows, and bows.

To the eonir, guns are a cool toy that introduces extra challenge to ranged combat and/or hunting, not an improvement.
 
reignonyrparade said:
If the CITYBORN perspective is "So much cheaper than the special arrows!" I doubt the forestborn have greater access.
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Are the cityborn masters of forestcraft and bow/arrow making?
Special arrows that are sold, will almost certainly be masterworks, but cheap enchantment you put on your handmade arrows means that access is not going to be that difficult.
Now, are bullets cheaper? Sure, it's just a metal ball.
My point is mostly about them being better, which i very much doubt they are at a distance, and endingclose to an enemy without holding a melee weapon is probably something the forestborn Eonir consider a skill issue.
 
Parabola said:
I can't really see Addaioth as a god of weapons that aren't flamethrowers or such, but precisely for that same reason, I think we once speculated that maybe the mystery cult of the Brights might be in service to Him?
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Yes, I believe it was last speculated a week or so ago.
Andres said:
Addaioth is an inner ring god among the Asrai. They give him a bunch more respect than the Asur and Druchii do. Eonir might be the same, so Addaioth may in fact have cultists, and if that's the case, it's not inconceivable that those cultists would experiment with gunpowder.
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The Asrai Pantheonic Mandala is...weird. I have some theories about inclusion of Addaioth (and Hukon and Esteruth) in their inner ring, but it's probably one the weirdest parts about it, and afaik there's no canon material that actually gives any detail about the worship of Addaioth by the Asrai. In any case, the Eonir don't put Addaioth in their inner ring:
Boney said:
Asuryan, Hoeth, Hekarti, Atharti, Vaul, Mathlann, and Morai-heg are on the inner ring for Laurelorn.
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pucflek said:
Yes.

They still live in the forest, and quite frankly we know that the actual good arms and armour are merit of the city born and Grey lords. This has been mentioned several times.
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No, they line the city, that's the whole point.
The city might be surrounded by the forest, but there is a very big difference in being able to go to aforest easily, and living in it.

And, yes, the absolute best craftsmen are in the city, but we are not talking about the Grey Lords of master craftsmen (as elf consider them), we are talking about average forestborn.
People who live in the forest, who have spent human lifetimes mastering living in the forest, who make any but the greatest archers humans can produce pale in comparison, and who, being elves, have the option to just learn bits of magic if they feel it is useful to them.
 
Valmond said:
No, they line the city, that's the whole point.
The city might be surrounded by the forest, but there is a very big difference in being able to go to aforest easily, and living in it.

And, yes, the absolute best craftsmen are in the city, but we are not talking about the Grey Lords of master craftsmen (as elf consider them), we are talking about average forestborn.
People who live in the forest, who have spent human lifetimes mastering living in the forest, who make any but the greatest archers humans can produce pale in comparison, and who, being elves, have the option to just learn bits of magic if they feel it is useful to them.
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I mean sure, keep building them up. Doesn't change the fact that they do not equal the workshops of the city in any way, shape or form, except for provisional craft which by default produces worse results than having a workshop.

We know the crafting power in Laurelorn resides in the city. No amount of pondering about Elven learning curve is changing that.

Also, being supreme archer does not make one supreme bowier and fletcher and elves do in fact need a teacher too for something that would be useful military enchanting. And i get a feeling that those would all be in the city.
 
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