Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[DragonParadox]

Can anyone think of a case when having the amor would have made us fight differently in a way that would have changed the ultimate outcome of the strategic scale of the fight?

Best I can think of is trying to fight Drycha alone and winning thus getting less Kislevites killed, but I am not sure if that would have impacted our reward of one ice witch and one Kislev favor.

To be clear I am not saying such an outcome can't exist, just that we have not encountered it so far in over twenty years spent in some pretty high intensity combat.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Can anyone think of a case when having the amor would have made us fight differently in a way that would have changed the ultimate outcome of the strategic scale of the fight?

Best I can think of is trying to fight Drycha alone and winning thus getting less Kislevites killed, but I am not sure if that would have impacted our reward of one ice witch and one Kislev favor.

To be clear I am not saying such an outcome can't exist, just that we have not encountered it so far in over twenty years spent in some pretty high intensity combat.

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No, the Drycha fight was limited by Mathilde's godawful tracking rolls, the armor wouldn't have let us tackle her faster. The closest example I can think of is the Khornate champion, who we've since developed more techniques to counter. I guess some of the fights in Karak Eight Peaks could count?

 

[pucflek]

Considering Boney was saying that we could not make the ship more splendid by preemptively spending one of our dawi boons on it, I'm pretty sure that it's not just the colleges putting the brightest minds together, but also exerting a lot of their influence to get outside help.

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To be perfectly fair, i think unless it includes steel, the Imperial and Britonians are probably better at building wooden seagoing vessels anyway. But yeah, i mean. I think we made some estimates and we probably handed over like 80-160 worth of college favour in the orbs alone, much less the two mysteries we solved that were the actual academic payload. That's. A lot. Branulhune cost 25, the overenchanted piece of firebelching cost 20(i think), I know the exchange ration doesn't really exist but still.

No, the Drycha fight was limited by Mathilde's godawful tracking rolls, the armor wouldn't have let us tackle her faster. The closest example we have is the Khornate champion, who we've since developed more techniques to counter.

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We did not actually i think. Both would have been useless as they rely on teleporting nature of our sword, which is something she did not dare to do in his presence (Well maybe the fast draw but i think we incorporated teleporting into it too, so correct me there if i am wrong).

 

[Tobtorp]

To be perfectly fair, i think unless it includes steel, the Imperial and Britonians are probably better at building wooden seagoing vessels anyway. But yeah, i mean. I think we made some estimates and we probably handed over like 80-160 worth of college favour in the orbs alone, much less the two mysteries we solved that were the actual academic payload. That's. A lot. Branulhune cost 25, I know the exchange ration doesn't really exist but still.

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Also a reason I don't like the grab bag, we could get a bunch of that stuff through purchase action, half actions and some carefully chosen full actions and it still would come cheaper in college favors

 

[pucflek]

Also a reason I don't like the grab bag, we could get a bunch of that stuff through purchase action, half actions and some carefully chosen full actions and it still would come cheaper in college favors

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I mean, i would pay fuckton favour for bonus full action and i don't think learning about Hexensohn is that easy either.

Edit: I also kinda just really don't vibe with the ship, but subjective opinions and all that.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

We did not actually i think. Both would have been useless as they rely on teleporting nature of our sword, which is something she did not dare to do in his presence (Well maybe the fast draw but i think we incorporated teleporting into it too, so correct me there if i am wrong).

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Rereading the fight, I think you might be misremembering, since rune of the unknown is never noted to be weakened or risky to attempt, Mathilde just doesn't use it because she obviously doesn't want to put the sword away while fighting him. He only directly resists the whole 'hit like a cannonball' effect.

 

[consequences]

We did not actually i think. Both would have been useless as they rely on teleporting nature of our sword, which is something she did not dare to do in his presence (Well maybe the fast draw but i think we incorporated teleporting into it too, so correct me there if i am wrong).

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We Can Haz Training Sword. In the event of a sufficiently hazardous to magic environment, we can in fact now test the viability of rune enhanced surprise stabby stabby, so that weakness has also been mitigated.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Rereading the fight, I think you might be misremembering, since rune of the unknown is never noted to be weakened or risky to attempt, Mathilde just doesn't use it because she obviously doesn't want to put the sword away while fighting him. He only directly resists the whole 'hit like a cannonball' effect.

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I mean, the second rune, which turns off enemy buffs also wasn't working, and the Rune of Rancour's blowback attack didn't activate either.

 

[AsuraAtlas]

The secret behind flock of doom I would guess also requires a boon from the ambers and not just favor. Some people say these things just require half actions, and even if we take that at face value (the greys upgrading our spy network I feel is being dismissed far too much) those half actions are competing hard. They just don't fit into the calculus for the next few turns, certainly not before elfcation. We have half a dozen scribe and library actions the light order is competing for that can only happen once a turn, I have no idea how we're gonna fit good enchanted robes right before the elfcation and we'd be spending pretty much all our favor on them, people are proposing we go into debt to afford Lothern…

To me Pickles Plan's benefits have always been clear, if not very flashy. They make what we already wanted to read better. They make the past quest better by resolving a significant plot thread, they make the far future better by massively upgrading our travel, spies and perhaps even lore, and they make the immediate few turns better by saving well over a full turns worth of needed AP, not to mention things I don't think we could get any other way. When exactly does the thread imagine the Amethysts are next gonna owe us a boon?

Those next few turns are always the most important, and I think they'd be massively improved if we suddenly got a mile of slack on our line.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

For me, there's definitely an aesthetic element to why I'm against the armour. Firstly, it has the Bright order's symbol on the front of it. But then there's also the silk—I really like the idea of Mathilde "vow of poverty" Weber wearing a full robe of silk. It sends a very strong message. I'm not quite sure what that message is—"audit my finances" maybe?—but I really like the image of it.

Couple that with the fact that I'm not sure we need better armour—anything that gets too close to us is going to get a face full of knightbringer anyway—and I'm just not seeing any appeal to it. We don't need to facetank anything, that's why we got apparitions, and if we need more facetanking we should get more apparitions.

On an unrelated note, we should get more apparitions. I would like to have a broad suite of different apparition spells for different circumstances.

 

[pucflek]

Rereading the fight, I think you might be misremembering, since rune of the unknown is never noted to be weakened or risky to attempt, Mathilde just doesn't use it because she obviously doesn't want to put the sword away while fighting him. He only directly resists the whole 'hit like a cannonball' effect.

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Yeah you are right. I mean he does also ignore rune of rancour, and Mathilde does not expect Seed of Regrowth to work near him, but she does not mention Rune of Unknown. Idk where i got it, if i hallucinated it all or someone mentioned it some day since and me mistaking it for canon.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

I mean, the second rune, which turns off enemy buffs also wasn't working, and the Rune of Rancour's blowback attack didn't activate either.

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Those two effects would have had to apply through the champion's innate defences, and the latter only happened after Khorne buffed the antimagic effect twice over. The rune of the unknown, meanwhile, had about two rounds to work without trying to affect the champion and without the antimagic effect being buffed, which looking at the rolls would have let Mathilde win both rolls handily, giving her a massive advantage.

Yeah you are right. I mean he does also ignore rune of rancour, and Mathilde does not expect Seed of Regrowth to work near him, but she does not mention Rune of Unknown. Idk where i got it, if i hallucinated it all or someone mentioned it some day since and me mistaking it for canon.

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As I noted, Rancour and the Seed Of Regrowth were only mentioned after Khorne boosted the antimagic effect twice over, which took several turns.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Those two effects would have had to apply through the champion's innate defences, and the latter only happened after Khorne buffed the antimagic effect twice over. The rune of the unknown, meanwhile, had about two rounds to work without trying to affect the champion and without the antimagic effect being buffed, which looking at the rolls would have let Mathilde win both rolls handily, giving her a massive advantage.

As I noted, Rancour and the Seed Of Regrowth were only mentioned after Khorne boosted the antimagic effect twice over, which took several turns.

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Khorne wasn't buffing the antimagic effect as far as I know. The rolls between him and Ranald were whether Ranald could distract him from keeping up the field of "only reality" that was being projected. Further, the Rune of Rancour was implied to have failed due to the Champion's collar, not Khorne's direct influence.

I think it's a lot less clear that it would have coninuted to work anyway, and certainly that it would have continued to work perfectly.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Khorne wasn't buffing the antimagic effect as far as I know. The rolls between him and Ranald were whether Ranald could distract him from keeping up the field of "only reality" that was being projected. Further, the Rune of Rancour was implied to have failed due to the Champion's collar, not Khorne's direct influence.

I think it's a lot less clear that it would have coninuted to work anyway, and certainly that it would have continued to work perfectly.

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I dunno what to tell you, take it up with Boney, ig:

- Ranald vs Khorne rolls: 1st round, Ranald won and tried to use that victory to get an upper hand in future rolls. Rounds 2 and 3, Khorne won and used the opportunity to buff his champion, including the antimagic effect. Round 4, Ranald won and made sure that Ljiljana (who was on her way anyway) intervened before the Champion could finish you off.

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[Parabola]

I mean, the second rune, which turns off enemy buffs also wasn't working, and the Rune of Rancour's blowback attack didn't activate either.

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The second rune wouldn't have worked even in normal conditions, because the antimagic effect on the fight was literally only because we were fighting in Khorne's own backyard, facing one of his champions, with Khorne metaphorically chanting 'I hate magic I hate magic I hate magic' in the background while Ranald was doing his best Bugs Bunny impression.

 

[deathofrats0808]

I dunno what to tell you, take it up with Boney, ig:

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Ok, fair, but that still doesn't say he buffed antimagic twice. It says he turned it on. Presumably the other buff would have been the Champion getting extra swole after the first roll.

The second rune wouldn't have worked even in normal conditions, because the antimagic effect on the fight was literally only because we were fighting in Khorne's own backyard, facing one of his champions, with Khorne metaphorically chanting 'I hate magic I hate magic I hate magic' in the background while Ranald was doing his best Bugs Bunny impression.

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The Rune was never going to turn off the antimagic field, sure. It might have deactivated the collar under normal circumstances though. And as I mentioned, the collar appears to be what stopped the Rune of Rancour.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Ok, fair, but that still doesn't say he buffed antimagic twice. It says he turned it on. Presumably the other buff would have been the Champion getting extra swole after the first roll.

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No, that's incorrect. The champion already had the magic-cancelling collar, powerful enough that even before Mathilde engaged him she could see the Winds being physically repelled from him:

You feel the change in the energy of the battlefield before what has heralded it comes into sight, as the Winds are battered backwards by an invisible and overwhelming force and magic begins to answer your call a little more hesitantly. A hulking figure barges through the crowd, his skin as brass as the spiked collar fixed to his neck, his arms lacking hands entirely, instead being fused directly to the haft of an enormous steel axe. He turns his gaze to you, hatred shimmering in his eyes, then to the blizzard. Enemy spellcasters or foreign Gods, which does a Champion of Khorne hate more?

[Rolling...]

Evidently, you.

He charges straight in your direction, barging aside any foolish enough to get in his way as you ready your blade to meet the charge. You can't run from this foe without risking the entire battle, as if he meets the storm and brings his unholy patron into direct conflict with the Gods of Kislev, that could end it all. You can't turn spells directly on him either, not with any confidence, as the collar around his neck is a physical manifestation of the Blood God's hatred for magic. But that doesn't mean you're out of options entirely. So as the Champion gathers speed, you refresh the spells surrounding you and then ready another.

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But on turn 2 it's still weak enough that her AA has effect:

But not fast enough, as the Champion's muscles swell with unnatural vigour as his swing meets your invisible stomach, causing you to cough and retch as your Aethyric Amour absorbs enough to turn what would have been a bisecting into an extremely painful blow to the gut. You look to the Champion's stomach for the response from your Belt, but instead the collar glows red and blood begins to seep down the Champion's neck, the influence of Khorne somehow denying the Rune of Rancour any purchase on His Champion.

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And it's only on turn 3 that Mathilde directly notes that Khorne's influence is powerful enough to directly contest Branulhune:

Apparently not, as the Champion ignores the bullets slamming into its torso in favour of swinging his axe once more, meeting Branulhune halfway and sending an agonizing jolt through your arm as the two forces arrest each other. Is the Champion swinging with as much force as Kragg's Rune imparts on Branulhune? Surely not, or it would have cut straight through your Aethyric Armour without effort. It must be the aura of the Blood God dulling it, imposing brutal reality where strength is all that matters, not ephemeral energies and cunning artifice. And that is a battlefield that a Champion of Khorne is much more at home in than you are, as it recovers from the impact much faster than you do and swings the pommel of the axe into you, sending you sprawling.

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Given this, either the champion's antimagic aura was buffed twice throughout turn 2 and 3, or it was buffed on turn 3, otherwise Mathilde probably wouldn't have been able to rely on her AA on turn 2 to not be bisected.

Also, Boney stated, in the quote I showed you, that the Champion was buffed, 'including the antimagic effect'. If it was 'turned on', presumably he would have phrased it differently, like 'giving him an antimagic effect', right?

But in either case that's irrelevant, since Mathilde still would have had, at minimum, one turn, probably two, where she had an effective plus 30 to her rolls. That would have been more than enough to survive long enough for her to be rescued, or even possibly win.

 

[pucflek]

Yeah im with dumbo here. Its written out pretty clearly. I really thought Rune of Unknown wasn't utilized because mathilde was afraid it wouldn't work but it doesn't show up in text so clearly my mind made that up, and Mathilde only expresses her fear that her self targeting magical effects will not work way after Khorne wins lot of stuff. And those quotes of what that duel did are from Boney. Honestly could not be clearer.

(I was trying to hunt down if maybe the unknown thing didn't come up in WoG, but i could not find any so i probably just hallucinated it on the spot).

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Also I feel like if we had the airship for that fight there would have been a much more straightforward solution to the khornate champion than having better armor to duel him with
(Ignore that the chaos wastes would probably be dangerous to traverse by air given the sheer flood of Winds in the upper atmosphere, but eh maybe we could've gotten the dwarves to cook something up for us)

 

[Mopman43]

Also I feel like if we had the airship for that fight there would have been a much more straightforward solution to the khornate champion than having better armor to duel him with
(Ignore that the chaos wastes would probably be dangerous to traverse by air given the sheer flood of Winds in the upper atmosphere, but eh maybe we could've gotten the dwarves to cook something up for us)

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To be fair, the second canonical Dum expedition was done via Thunderbarge.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

To be fair, the second canonical Dum expedition was done via Thunderbarge.

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Huh! Admittedly a thunderbarge being crewed by Dawi and using runes instead of enchantments probably makes it more resistant, but that's a good sign we could at least make short forays into the Wastes with an airship/tower if need be. Maybe if the next Everchosen shows up and Mathilde gets a Daring Plan.

 

[pucflek]

To be fair, the second canonical Dum expedition was done via Thunderbarge.

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Which wasn't crewed by wizards tho, i think.

 

[Mopman43]

Which wasn't crewed by wizards tho, i think.

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It was enchanted and crewed by at least one wizard.

 

[pucflek]

HUH! Well, neat! So it probably would've been useful for Dum. Alas.

 

[Parabola]

The Rune was never going to turn off the antimagic field, sure. It might have deactivated the collar under normal circumstances though. And as I mentioned, the collar appears to be what stopped the Rune of Rancour.

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I wouldn't take even that as a given. It's a gift provided by Khorne; even if in tabletop terms it's a magical item, in narrative terms it might not be, as far as runes are concerned.