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I had a knee-jerk reaction to the idea that there isn't an objective truth to strive for that I'm going to ruminate on for a while, and I suspect I'll probably end up reading the Principia too. Thanks for sharing!

Is it what this is saying? Or is it that the primordial chaos that is the truth is too big for human minds to comprehend, so they create models to try to which is definitionally imperfect because said models are just shortcuts meant to make understanding of something too huge and complicated for our minds achievable?

Edit: Ninja'd, kind of.
 
Somehow that passage reads a lot like my own thoughts. I think I will give it a go to reading Principia.

I was just amused that, common knowledge or ideas are often expanded to the point that they can be incomprehensible at first glance.

There are ideas and knowledge that majority of people might think that everybody knows them and they are right that majority of people have gotten exposed to them but somehow everybody gets their own take on the common knowledge, some with only subtle differences while others wildy vary. But the main point is if you rely on that to communicate what you want to say everybody you talk to get subtly different understanding that leads to very common arguments. That is actually why everybody on the internet is wrong.

If you belive that Common knowladge is actually common or that ideas are shared by large number of people you clearly have not engaged in deep discourse about them with anybody. Then you would know that unless you start from nothing and walk people tough your logic you keep getting frustrated with their inability/miss understand simplest things. There is a reason scientific papers start with describing very simple concepts before they engage with the main issue. And that reason is not to torture undergrads. Simple Concepts like "What is Education" which is indeed very simple yet somehow every paper about education adds it to ensure every reader actually gets on the same page.
 
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I had a knee-jerk reaction to the idea that there isn't an objective truth to strive for that I'm going to ruminate on for a while, and I suspect I'll probably end up reading the Principia too. Thanks for sharing!
I definitely believe that there is, but the idea that human minds as currently existing would be able to fully understand said truth rather than an approximation seems silly. Or as the saying goes "All models are flawed, some are useful".
Is it what this is saying? Or is it that the primordial chaos that is the truth is too big for human minds to comprehend, so they create models to try to which is definitionally imperfect because said models are just shortcuts meant to make understanding of something too huge and complicated for our minds achievable?

Edit: Ninja'd, kind of.

No grid is itself True, but they can help you understand Truth. The idea of finding the 'truest' grid makes no sense because truth is subjective and Truth is deeper than grids. The idea of finding the 'best' grid makes more sense, but is still self-defeating. You might be able to find the one that gives you the best view of a given Truth, but it is only ever going to be one view. It boils down a philosophical quandary to pure geometric fact: the shape of a three-dimensional object can never be fully determined from a single perspective, no matter how much you refine that perspective. There are perspective that can tell you more than others or are easier to understand than others, but no one that can tell you everything, that's why blueprints always have at least three. So to really develop an understanding of Truth you need to learn to understand different perspectives, you need to be able to switch between them, and you need the ability to synthesize Truth from them.

My younger self spent a lot of time looking for The Correct Philosophy and getting frustrated at how I kept finding veins of wisdom but nothing that was the one-size-fits-all answer, and it was that shift in perspective (appropriately) that allowed me to actually begin to benefit from all that reading. A saw is really bad at hammering in a nail and a hammer is really bad at cutting wood; instead of discarding both and continuing my doomed search for the One True Tool that can do both and everything else, I learned how to switch between tools as needed. I don't know if there was something out there that could have been able to convince me that it was The Correct Philosophy if I had kept looking, but I think it could have gone badly if there was.
 
One interesting point I recently read in a history of philosophy is that once we've successfully applied philosophy to something and gotten to a conclusive answer (or at least a definitive method of answering), it ceases to be philosophy. All sciences, and also math, are a product of this process. So the multitude of philosophy is almost definitional.
 
A grudgelore question that may have been answered already but here goes; would a Grudge have been laid against Laurelorn for that throng that vanished while marching against it? Mathilde says that legally they're in the clear re; the War of Vengeance, but there is that matter.
 
No grid is itself True, but they can help you understand Truth. The idea of finding the 'truest' grid makes no sense because truth is subjective and Truth is deeper than grids. The idea of finding the 'best' grid makes more sense, but is still self-defeating. You might be able to find the one that gives you the best view of a given Truth, but it is only ever going to be one view. It boils down a philosophical quandary to pure geometric fact: the shape of a three-dimensional object can never be fully determined from a single perspective, no matter how much you refine that perspective. There are perspective that can tell you more than others or are easier to understand than others, but no one that can tell you everything, that's why blueprints always have at least three. So to really develop an understanding of Truth you need to learn to understand different perspectives, you need to be able to switch between them, and you need the ability to synthesize Truth from them.

My younger self spent a lot of time looking for The Correct Philosophy and getting frustrated at how I kept finding veins of wisdom but nothing that was the one-size-fits-all answer, and it was that shift in perspective (appropriately) that allowed me to actually begin to benefit from all that reading. A saw is really bad at hammering in a nail and a hammer is really bad at cutting wood; instead of discarding both and continuing my doomed search for the One True Tool that can do both and everything else, I learned how to switch between tools as needed. I don't know if there was something out there that could have been able to convince me that it was The Correct Philosophy if I had kept looking, but I think it could have gone badly if there was.

I hope you do not mind me participating in a genuine philosophical discussion, but isn't the ability to switch and syntesise perspectives, definitionally, a perspective in itself? Wouldn't that make such a thing the optimal grid? No blind man can describe an elephant well, but that doesn't mean one cannot synthesise an elephant by using enough blind men. Going by that logic, Truth may be unreachable for a man but it may be reachable for humanity by collating enough perspectives and...

At that point, isn't this just a rephrasing of empiricism writ large? I am not trying to mock anything here, this is a genuine question.
 
A grudgelore question that may have been answered already but here goes; would a Grudge have been laid against Laurelorn for that throng that vanished while marching against it? Mathilde says that legally they're in the clear re; the War of Vengeance, but there is that matter.
Don't think so. That whole thing fell on the head of the Phoenix King, and would be part of the price for avenging that cost.

Plus, if the cost of avenging things was tallied as new grudges, the whole system would fall apart. Just imagine what would happen if two clans got into a fight. Each clash would produce a bigger debt and it could never be settled.

Where grudges are concerned, dwarves will pay the price, but they will not count the cost.
 
Wouldn't that make such a thing the optimal grid?

No, because the grids are not compatible.

The rock bottom requirement for something to be true is that it not contradict itself. If you've got a grid that says "X is Y" and one that says "X is Z", they could both be internally self-consistent, but contradict eachother. Which means that either on it's own might be true, but both of them together cannot be.
 
I hope you do not mind me participating in a genuine philosophical discussion, but isn't the ability to switch and syntesise perspectives, definitionally, a perspective in itself? Wouldn't that make such a thing the optimal grid? No blind man can describe an elephant well, but that doesn't mean one cannot synthesise an elephant by using enough blind men. Going by that logic, Truth may be unreachable for a man but it may be reachable for humanity by collating enough perspectives and...

At that point, isn't this just a rephrasing of empiricism writ large? I am not trying to mock anything here, this is a genuine question.

I tend to view this in the pessimistic way: that switching between perspectives is itself a perspective, and that means it too cannot be a solution. It's Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem all the way down. If you have the ability to recognize that your perspective has a problem and switch to another, it means you did not truly use that perspective in the first place. You actually used the "that perspective plus rules for switching perspectives" perspective. Which isn't compatible with the first one, and is also equally as incomplete.
 
If you had a magnifying glass through which you could see the truth, it could never actually look at itself. The action of perceiving will always have a blind spot of some sort, and the same is true for more metaphorical perceptions.
 
No, because the grids are not compatible.

The rock bottom requirement for something to be true is that it not contradict itself. If you've got a grid that says "X is Y" and one that says "X is Z", they could both be internally self-consistent, but contradict eachother. Which means that either on it's own might be true, but both of them together cannot be.

That does not really apply here, though. Either one grid has a blind spot, in which case by switching grids you manage to find it and potentially patch it, or X can be both Y and Z in some way, and the assunption hat it isn't or that there can't be a reconcilation WAS the blind spot using both grids allowed you to uncover.

Granted, the tricky part would be finding which is it. And perhaps the whole point of this is that sometimes it is impossible to tell.

I tend to view this in the pessimistic way: that switching between perspectives is itself a perspective, and that means it too cannot be a solution. It's Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem all the way down. If you have the ability to recognize that your perspective has a problem and switch to another, it means you did not truly use that perspective in the first place. You actually used the "that perspective plus rules for switching perspectives" perspective. Which isn't compatible with the first one, and is also equally as incomplete.

Even if that is true, one has to ask thus:

Is the perfect chess ability something that can exist? Yes. Is it achievable for a human? No, even machines haven't managed perfection yet. Does that mean that the pursuit of bettering one's chess ability is futile? Hell no.

The Truth being unreachable and unachievable does not mean that Pursuit of the Truth is meaningless. And, I may add, it is a logical leap to say that the impossibility of truly reaching the Truth necessitates that every perspective is EQUALLY untrue. That is the one thing that I find most disagreeable with this philosophy, the assumption that unachievability of absoluteness necessitates everything being equidistant from it, a conclusion that does not really follow.
 
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That does not really apply here, though. Either one grid has a blind spot, in which case by switching grids you manage to find it and potentially patch it, or X can be both Y and Z in some way, and the assunption hat it isn't or that there can't be a reconcilation WAS the blind spot using both grids allowed you to uncover.

The problem is less blindspots and more outright contradictions. There's no reason to think that one is more true, so you are left looking for a third view to judge against that probably has its own contradictions with the first two.

Idk. The most influential philosophy class I ever took was on identity, where we started with the question 'if I have a statue, and gouge a chunk out, is it still the same statue? ' and then proceeded to demonstrate that no matter how you answered the questions, your answer would not be self-consistent.

What I learned is that the idea that there's such a thing as a 'true' answer when taking about identity is itself false, and some things are just like that.
 
A grudgelore question that may have been answered already but here goes; would a Grudge have been laid against Laurelorn for that throng that vanished while marching against it? Mathilde says that legally they're in the clear re; the War of Vengeance, but there is that matter.

That was part of the war and was resolved by the death of the Phoenix King and the taking of his crown as a trophy.

I hope you do not mind me participating in a genuine philosophical discussion, but isn't the ability to switch and syntesise perspectives, definitionally, a perspective in itself? Wouldn't that make such a thing the optimal grid? No blind man can describe an elephant well, but that doesn't mean one cannot synthesise an elephant by using enough blind men. Going by that logic, Truth may be unreachable for a man but it may be reachable for humanity by collating enough perspectives and...

At that point, isn't this just a rephrasing of empiricism writ large? I am not trying to mock anything here, this is a genuine question.

The core idea is about the ways that the philosophies and cultural ideas that are the tools given to us to perceive the truth fall short of doing so, and the way in which someone trapped within that system can bootstrap themselves into a greater understanding with the resources available inside that system. What you're suggesting is ultimately tautological, akin to saying the point I made about no best tool is invalid because there actually is a best tool, the toolbelt. There's a semantic debate to be had here and I can see arguments either way, but I don't see it leading anyone to any improved understanding. You're stress-testing the core idea for invincibility, when that's not its intention or its purpose.

Discordianism is what it is needed to be. It can be a joke, or a religion, or a philosophy, it can be mined or syncretized or used as a philosophical rocket booster destined to be discarded. Just as it says that there is no one true answer, it makes no claims to being the one true answer.

On a tangential note, I don't believe that any one perception of reality can be most useful and most pleasant and most beautiful. Even if 'optimal' grids are a concept that makes any sense, you're still going to want a suite of them.
 
I was Discordianists back in the day. I read it early for the funnies and moved on, but then when I was exploring philosophies I kept finding that they kept saying a thousand boring words to dance around something that the Principia nailed in a pithy one-liner. The section on psycho-metaphyics was the cornerstone for my belief in the inherent value of diverse perspectives.

The Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper that is the level of distinction making.

With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about- reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper that is the level of concept.

We look at the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids.

A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The ORDER is in the GRID. That is the Aneristic Principle.

Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the ANERISTIC ILLUSION. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.

DISORDER is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the ERISTIC PRINCIPLE.

The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION.

The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

Reality is the original Rorschach.

Hail Eris.
Hunh. Now that you bring it up, it does feel like it ties into quite a lot of your approach to writing. Especially apparent when you're writing different cultures, but even present just in how each person has their own story to tell, ways of seeing the world, and reasons for what they do.

Related... You ever have someone explain some foundational part of their worldview, and you're just like... "oh, yeah. That."

Not because you don't get it, or look down on it, but because you've held something either identical or very similar for years, if not decades, and it's so foundational that you don't often think about it directly anymore. It's just implicit to how you see the world, and seeing it brought up directly is a little jarring in how it dredges all that old foundation up again.

I might have once said that reality can be viewed through innumerable lenses, from fields of science, to philosophies, to other views besides, each of which grants insight on some of it's workings, but is of limited use outside it's context, but I've also seen similar in the idea that understanding the truth of the reality is like the sunlight streaming through a cathedral's windows or the gazing upon moon's reflection in endless pools of water. One of the core points being that there's a real thing behind it all, but understanding is always filtered through one's perspective.

(Though I am always partial to my teenage self's approach, because the metaphor of lenses implies objects one can collect, and the idea of going out and gather up different ways to look at the world was always fun.)

Anyways, I think the sudden dredging shocked me into a bit of a stream of consciousness, but it just seems very fitting, for the topic at hand. That not only are there so many different ways of looking at the world, none of which are really primary, but the ways of expressing that have come up from so many different sources that there are countless ways of saying it, each of which puts its focus on a different part and implication of that fact of life.
 
In times like these I like to turn to philosophical pragmatism, which offers the incredibly effective security blanket of "Why are you asking this question in the first place? Do you really care about the answer, or are there other, easier ways to satisfy your goals?" I haven't yet found a case where the confusing hypothetical was strictly necessary.

Still fun, though.

EDIT: To clarify, this subject is my catnip, I don't mean to suggest it is unworthy of discussion.
 
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If we aren't taking 1+1=2 as axiomatic, then I'd hate to see what kinds of axioms you start with that are both simpler than it and lead to a proof of it.

Usually, when you dive deep into Foundations of Mathematics, you try to define objects as abstractly as possible and with as few requirements as possible. The idea being that any kind of "intuitive" truths are suspect and you want to formally derive all of mathematics formally from first principles¹. Presupposing an enumeration of objects 0, 1, 2, ... and a suitable operation on those objects is already more than we want in that context.

In set theory (which you can use as a first approximation of PM), you start with a single object: The empty set ∅. Let's give it a name, and because it is so simple, we will call it '0'.

Set theory also gives you an operation, set construction x ↦ {x}. How do we use this to construct the rest of our numbers? Here is one way: Given a set X, define the successor of X as succ(X) = {X}. We can use this to obtain a sequence ∅, succ(∅) = {∅}, succ(succ(∅) = {{∅}}. Note that all of these have different depths of nesting, so they are in fact distinct objects. We can therefore give them unique names. Let's call succ(∅) '1', succ(succ(∅)) '2', and so on.²
You can see that we now have a set of objects ℕ = {0, 1, 2, ...}, but no addition yet. Let's get around to that. Given two sets X, Y from ℕ, we observe that either Y is 0 (in which case X + Y = X + 0 = X), or Y is of the shape succ(Z) for some Z in ℕ. In that case we say X + Y = succ(X + Z).³

But we defined this operation from first principles. How do we know that it actually matches our intuitive understanding of addition? Formally we'd have to show that (ℕ, +) is a commutative monoid, but for the purposes of this post, maybe we'll accept just a proof that 1+1=2:

1 + 1
= succ(∅) + succ(∅) [by the definition of 1]
= succ(succ(∅) + ∅) [by the second case of +]
= succ(succ(∅) ) [by the first case of +]
= 2 [by the definition of 2]


QED.


¹ Look out, there comes Gödel with a steel chair
² These are called Zermelo ordinals. There are other ways to define the natural numbers, for example von Neumann ordinals, which have succ(X) = X ∪ {X}. That definition is a bit more complicated but often preferred for other reasons.
³ This way of defining arithmetic is called Peano arithmetic
 
Hunh. Now that you bring it up, it does feel like it ties into quite a lot of your approach to writing. Especially apparent when you're writing different cultures, but even present just in how each person has their own story to tell, ways of seeing the world, and reasons for what they do.

It's baked very deep into the library system. There's a hard limit on how useful any one cultural perspective is and when people have queried that I did the text equivalent of staring blankly at them. It's also a big part of the magic system, where the subjective worldview of the person wielding the magic has deep effects on what is and isn't possible with it, and sometimes they can wrestle something out of that subjective worldview that can be shared with everyone else.
 
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