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But elvish mages routinely live for centuries while still being pretty active on battlefields, while the average imperial BW has a lifespan of at most a couple decade. It implies that they have a lower miscast rate, or at the very least more effective ways to protect themselves from their miscasts. Maybe a bit of both.
Personally, I think it makes the most sense if they had similar failure rates but their fail-states were simply more desirable to them: that it's more common for them to let go of the energies the instant they realize they've made a mistake, or that it's more common for their miscasts to affect the environment more often than they affect the elf themselves due to grounding them.

(We know by implication that they still can miscast badly enough that they mutate - Boney's said before that if an Elf gets an Arcane Mark or something similar that's basically the end of that wizard's career - but it seems exceedingly rare.)

The rest could be attributed to how the smarter you are, the better your chance of successfully casting a spell, and how elves have a lot more time than humans to accumulate a lot of smarts.

It could also be due to the mental state required to use Dhar.
Yeah, Boney's said before that even if Mathilde is safe from Dhar's metaphysical effects due to the Belt, she's not immune to metaphorical effects and that to channel magical energies you need the right mindset - and the mindset for Dhar is paranoia, megalomania, etc. Elves probably do similarly.
 
Isn't that not even a problem for them, because Lore of Shadows has Occam's Razor whose Strength is determined by Leadership, and Elves have insanely high Ld? I'm not that familiar with WHFB 8E and even I heard about that combination.

Even in AoS, Mystifying Miasma is one of the most annoying spells to contend with (-2 to charge and stopping run and charge is a big deal). Lore of Shadows' concept just lends itself to strong abilities I suppose.
Well yeah, but Okkam's is pretty damn good for everyone because you can reliably get at least one unit with 9 or 10 Ld pretty trivially in 8th.
 
There are main factors that allow human Wizards to be competitive with Elven mages, these are:
  1. Monofocus
  2. Risk-taking
  3. Arcane Marks
The Elven curriculum emphasises learning all eight Winds as a whole, splitting a student's attention eight ways. The Colleges's curriculum concentrates on learning only one Wind, meaning a Wizard can focus eight times their attention on studying their Wind than their Elven equivalent. That's an 800% efficiency increase in terms of progress in learning Wind magic vs time spend learning Wind magic. What a human student learns in ten years requires an Elven one study for 80 years to reach parity. A Magister that's been going around being a Wizard for a hundred years (not implausible given Wizard lifespans) would have as much skill manipulating a Wind as an Elven mage with eight centuries of experience learning all eight. Even for Elven lifespans 800 years is a very large amount of time. In practice this disparity in speed of skill progression is further enhanced by the other two factors, risk-taking and Arcane Marks.

The Elven paradigm is a conservative and safety-focused approach based on avoiding miscasts, when learning a spell a student learns all the ins and outs of the spell to fully understand the it before casting it to minimize the chance of anything going wrong. The Colleges meanwhile not only take a much less risk averse approach to their curriculum, they actively encourage a degree of risk-taking among their Wizards so they may be able to encourage greater things. When learning a new spell they do not require the student to fully comprehend the spell before casting, instead they follow a learn-by-doing approach, teaching the theory behind the spell and then having them try to cast it on their own and figure out how to do it properly on the fly. On one hand this means their is a significant chance of a miscast, on the other hand this means you can skip teaching large amounts of preparatory groundwork and theirs a chance that the students on the fly adaptations will result in a Mastery which is another advantage Elves can't have, and even if their is a miscast that miscast might result in an Arcane Mark which human Wizardry's third advantage over Elves. This risk-taking attitude also translates to a higher effective level of magical ability, not because being a risk-taker makes you better at casting spells but because it means you're willing to cast spells that you haven't 100% mastered because you're willing to eat the chance of a miscast in exchange for greater combat utility meaning you're effectively a more powerful Wizard than you should be on the battlefield and when that strategy does backfire and you do eat a miscast you again have the silver lining of the possibility of an Arcane Mark. Risk-taking attitudes also leads Wizards to do crazy things to make themselves more powerful like developing what are essentially artificial Arcane Marks in the form of Gilding or binding Apparitions directly to their souls to circumvent the normal limitations the thematics of a Wind impose on spell creation. Yes this results in a lot of Wizards dying while taking these risks but those that survive often go on to accomplish great things and the Colleges are of the view that quality is more important than quantity and the number of miracles both major and minor that Wizards accomplish on a regular basis seem to vindicate that view. Plus human Wizards are simply more expendable than Elf mages, it takes centuries to train up a replacement for a dead Elven Wizard compared to mere decades for a human one.

Finally there is the third factor, Arcane Marks. Arcane Marks not only grant an intuitive understanding of the relevant Wind making spellcasting easier they also make your soul actively better at channeling your wind. A human Wizard's magic score is nominally capped at 10, no matter how skilled they are, with Arcane Marks however that changes as their souls are no longer fully human, allowing them to cross that barrier and ascend to greater heights. The intuitive understanding of a Wind granted by Arcane Marks is what allowed things like Mathilde whipping up MAP on the spot or creating Rite of Way in a year and a half when Elves usually take decades, and if you're lucky enough to get the Mark of [Wind] Arcane Mark you can get a very significant boost in magical power. And all of that is an advantage that Elven mages can never possess.

That said it isn't all sunshine and rainbows for humans, while all of the above allows human Wizardry to be viable in the face of the Elven magic it still has a number of disadvantages compared to the Elven paradigm. First and most obviously a human Wizard is much less flexible than an Elven mage as they can only use one Wind, although this disadvantage can be mitigated by creative use Winds to generate effects that intrude into the conceptual territory that is Cardinally aligned with another Wind or by employing teams of Wizards of different Winds working together. Secondly humans are completely incapable of using High Magic, meaning that if you can't contrive a way to fit the desired effect of a spell into the thematic territory of any of the eight Winds you're SOL, although again this can be mitigated by using ritual magic which is not bound by the thematics of the eight Winds. Thirdly while the average Elven mage is still better at magic than the average human Wizard although the disparity isn't hopelessly large, for all the advantages human Wizards have Elves have their own advantages in the form multi-wind casting, longer lifespans allowing for more time spent learning magic even if that time is being divided eight ways, and being naturally better at manipulating magic. Fourthly while humans can invent spells much faster than elves this advantage is somewhat mitigated by the fact that they basically have to invent the spell twice, first to invent the spell initially and get it working in the first place, second to codify it into a form that any Wizard can cast, essentially porting the software of the spell from their own soul into a form that can run on everyone's souls by removing the hardware specific implementations reliant on quirks of your own soul's hardware that other people's souls wouldn't have. Fifthly not every Wizard can master the full curriculum of their College, either because they can't cast certain portions of their spellbook as is the case with Johann or because their magical abilities top out and they can't advance any further as is the case with Perpetuals, many Journeymen, and even some Magisters.
 
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The Elven curriculum emphasises learning all eight Winds as a whole, splitting a student's attention eight ways. The Colleges's curriculum concentrates on learning only one Wind, meaning a Wizard can focus eight times their attention on studying their Wind than their Elven equivalent. That's an 800% efficiency increase in terms of progress in learning Wind magic vs time spend learning Wind magic. What a human student learns in ten years requires an Elven one study for 80 years to reach parity. A Magister that's been going around being a Wizard for a hundred years (not implausible given Wizard lifespans) would have as much skill manipulating a Wind as an Elven mage with eight centuries of experience learning all eight. Even for Elven lifespans 800 years is a very large amount of time
This only applies to those aiming for high magic. There are mono wind specialised elfs. Maybe not as fully as humans, because for some effects very relevant to you it might be faster to do into another wind, but there are elvish traditions that focus on a single wind.
 
This only applies to those aiming for high magic. There are mono wind specialised elfs. Maybe not as fully as humans, because for some effects very relevant to you it might be faster to do into another wind, but there are elvish traditions that focus on a single wind.
I'm looking forward to meeting Ulgu-specialized elves on elfcation. So far, while we can guess there might be dedicated Ulgu casting elves who could have an advantage over a collegiate mage, we've never seen one on-screen before.
 
Elves learn their first wind by itself, earning admittance to the tower at the same level of mastery as a Magister Lord -- the career compendium says that by achieving this level of mastery elves are considered to have completed their apprenticeship.

Elves learn about as fast as humans do and have similar skill levels for the time invested. However, elves have all the time in the world, assuming they aren't hit on the head with a pointy rock, and so will eventually outstrip a human wizard simply because they can keep going forward and don't need to go back.

It's also important to keep in mind what's in the books and what's Boney's take on things. As a fifteen point six seven five thousand page thread with more than one million written words the deviations from canon have become negligible and thus built up -- for an example, in the books it is elves who are said to have the more personal and mystical paradigm, while human wizards adhere to the scientific method.
 
You know, aside from theoretically forcing the Mark of Ulgu for Magic 10, are there other means for us to break past Magic 10 and go into the unknown?
 
You know, aside from theoretically forcing the Mark of Ulgu for Magic 10, are there other means for us to break past Magic 10 and go into the unknown?
Getting Volans's Staff.

Making enough new spells to earn a +Magic trait.

(That's not like, a guarantee that that would happen, there's no timer of 'x new spells to get trait', just that if we're making a bunch of spells and delving into magic we'll probably earn one)
 
Basically doing enough weird Ulgu/magic stuff that Boney decides we're eligible for a Big Trait that gives +1 Magic at the end of an Arc, I think.
 
does the '10 is the limit for humans' include the bonuses for staffs and familiars and such? Or is it referring to the unequipped magic score?
 
You know, aside from theoretically forcing the Mark of Ulgu for Magic 10, are there other means for us to break past Magic 10 and go into the unknown?
The Magic score 'only' represents a mixture of raw power and actual control. Increasing it means some spells will have more power and length, and maybe will be cast more casually. It helps to learn spells, but we're already at the point where the only spells we can't cast reliably are Battle Magic or higher.

It may similar effects behind the curtain, such as maybe reducing the DC of learning spells, or help learn spells outside the Grey Order's paradigm of magic, but that's pure speculation on my end. It also won't do anything for Mathilde as a being of Ulgu - for that, it would be best to take actions to control our Marks.

"Venturing into the unknown" is a vague thing that we can already do: we've been able to make very unusual spells from the moment we got Warrior of Fog and Rite of Way is one (admittedly very stretched-out) example of that. We could afford making more such spells, honestly - our Approved Spells threadmark is bursting with ideas.

Making and/or codifying enough spells may offer up a related trait at the end of an arc and maybe that'll end up being a +Magic trait.

does the '10 is the limit for humans' include the bonuses for staffs and familiars and such? Or is it referring to the unequipped magic score?
It's the limit for a regular human, one that does not have either Arcane Marks or Familiars:

Only aesthetically. 10 magic is the max for regular humans, Mathilde left 'regular human' behind three Arcane Marks and one Familiar ago.
It may include staffs because they're external, though. So the theoretical limit for a regular human without familiar, marks or a staff is... 8, if we include the staff of Volans? 7, if we include weird miscellaneous traits like Eike's Natural Alchemist or Mathilde's Windreader/Windsage?

...I guess in practice it's a somewhat arbitrary point.
 
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It may include staffs because they're external, though. So the theoretical limit for a regular human without familiar, marks or a staff is... 8, if we include the staff of Volans? 7, if we include weird miscellaneous traits like Eike's Natural Alchemist or Mathilde's Windreader/Windsage?

...I guess in practice it's a somewhat arbitrary point.
See this is one of the parts where i feel (and correct me if i misunderstood it wildly) WoG also kind of contradicts whats written elsewhere by WoG.

Boney´s said this, as you quoted, but simultaneously, 7-10 is the realm of Wizard Lords and Battlewizards. They left that scale, same as Mathilde did, yet we use their highest peaks as the highest number of the scale that beings such as them supposedly can transcend. I´m really not sure how to square this in my mind.

EDIT: Was Fozzick like, 10? Is that how it goes? You can just be naturally born absurdly powerful with none of the "transmuting your soul" part but you can´t ascend past it while they can but don´t?

EDIT2: I mean its probably an artifact of this quest being officially Very Old, and much of the make up of the metaphysical background of the setting postdating the time when that was writen up, but yeah.
 
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See this is one of the parts where i feel (and correct me if i misunderstood it wildly) WoG also kind of contradicts whats written elsewhere by WoG.

Boney´s said this, as you quoted, but simultaneously, 7-10 is the realm of Wizard Lords and Battlewizards. They left that scale, same as Mathilde did, yet we use their highest peaks as the highest number of the scale. I´m really not sure how to square this in my mind.

EDIT: Was Fozzick like, 10? Is that how it goes? You can just be naturally born absurdly powerful with none of the "transmuting your soul" part but you can´t ascend past it while they can but don´t?
Shrug

The score is a mere abstraction, and I assume Boney came up with it early in the quest, when Mathilde was still in the 'knows two Relatively Simple spells' stage of things. It may not be all that helpful to use it as a measuring stick anymore, but we've also not gone up to 10 or higher so it's not like it's worth the effort to rewrite the scale either.

The score itself doesn't determine how much weird shit you can make. We were capable of making Rite of Way because we have Warrior of Fog, not because we have Magic 9. And I don't think Fozzrik managed his towers merely due to a high Magic score - I'm given to understand he spent his entire career messing with buildings and architecture.
 
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The score itself doesn't determine how much weird shit you can make. We were capable of making Rite of Way because we had Warrior of Fog, not because we had Magic 9. And I don't think Fozzrik managed his towers merely due to a high Magic score - I'm given to understand he spent his entire career messing with buildings and architecture.
Yeah i edited that it may just be that the quest is very old artifact bit before you posted.

As for the rest, something that i actually came upon during the Elf v. Human magic quotes search.

Boney´s actually i think once said something that may have hinted at one way of how Fozzick could´ve achieved what he did.

There are four specific issues with why mankind can´t cast more than one wind (without going insane)

1) Tendency to acquire Arcane Marks due to miscasts
2) Need to stop casting for fairly long time before switching to new wind
3) When you start new wind, you basically need to reattune yourself, thus somewhat losing your progress with the wind
4) Learning the paradigm of each wind is too long for a human lifetime, especially when you need to reattune thus making it harder

But considering this (emphasis mine):
But it does mean that if you're using two winds at the same time, then the traces of magic left by the spells you cast mingle within you and combine freely, creating free-floating Dhar in the wizard. It is possible, and even technically legal, to stop using your chosen Wind, wait a little bit of time to 'detox', then start using a different wind. It's just, what's the point? You throw away all the effort you've spent getting good at your chosen magic to try to learn an entire knew paradigm without even having the benefit of being taught by that College. And if you've been permanently marked by one wind or another, then you'd have to either 'cure' it somehow or accept that you're effectively locked into that wind of magic.

Maybe there's a way that a human can cast so efficiently and cleanly that there's no free-floating magic left in their system and they can switch between Winds freely. But attempting to do so would be explicitly against the laws of the Colleges and the only way to know if it works is trying it and seeing if you go insane.

I mean... you would have to be an unparalleled genius with magic to do the last, bolded part. Which would basically negate the points 1, 3 and 4, because you are just built so different that miscasts and understanding magic is no obstacle. The second point would be negated by the supposition itself. You can cast from any wind freely after all, since you burned away all the different wind magic from your system by being insanely efficient.

We still don´t know how could he do that, but at least the method by which he may have enchanted his fortress with all eight winds could be related to this.
 
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If we were going to any place other than Nagarythe, I would bet that we would never see a wizard worse than Mathilde because elven arrogance would have them all out of sight. But we might actually see some more legit comparisons in the DruchiDeathLands
 
I mean... you would have to be an unparalleled genius with magic to do the last, bolded part.
Maybe we could get a human king to draw the Widowmaker, have their entire bloodline and possibly all humans cursed, and then wait several thousand years for the human version of Teclis to show up. It's a bit of a long con but there is precedent for it.
 
We still don´t know how could he do that, but at least the method by which he may have enchanted his fortress with all eight winds could be related to this.
I just assume he either wasn't human, wasn't one human, or is some kind of freak exception to all the normal rules like Drachenfels and maybe Nagash.
 
Unfortunately i'm pretty sure we already got The Human Version Of Teclis and they decided to invent necromancy instead
Lmao I can't even deny this.

...I think I've said this before, but I still wonder what the world would look like if Nagash had gone and created Dhar + Hysh rather than Dhar + Shyish. Nehekharans were really into both of those Winds, not just the one that ended up dooming them.
 
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