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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I found a possible explanation for the Rhya-Ulric connection in Heidi's myths. Searching the thread for mentions of Lupos I found this quote by Boney regarding the creation of the dog:
Andres said:
IRL, dogs were invented 20k years ago at most, which in Warhammer would predate the Old Ones, and happened 280k years after humans started existing. How did Warhammer humans speedrun dogs? Old Ones? Rhya? WFRP 4e: Lustria page 80 mentions an elven mage who breeds capybaras with Ghur, so maybe magic was involved?
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Boney said:
I can't really answer that for GW, but I would turn a questioning eye towards the Wolf God Lupus, theorized to be the original God of the Cherusens, and His defeat and the usurpation of the canine sphere by Ulric, who is unquestionably a God of Humanity.
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To which @Andres replied:
Andres said:
Archives of the Empire 3, the biggest source of lore on Rhya, implies she's responsible for the endoggening of the wolf. Belthani myths say she gave "domesticated grain" and tamed animals, and a contemporary myth says her handmaidens gave tame aurochs and secrets on how to tame the wild. Main problem here besides being 4e is that the first paragraph of this page (66) is entirely dedicated to talking about how unreliable all her lore is. That said, domestication and taming of animals is 100% within her purview, and she's old, so I think she's a more viable candidate than peasant-eating Ulric for who made dogs.
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Is it possible that Boney took inspiration from that and cast the creation of the dog as an Ulric-Rhya team effort? This wouldn't explain "why" Ulric and Rhya are siblings, but it could explain why that fact is suppressed in modern times. I believe the modern Cult of Ulric doesn't tell the story of Ulric beating Lupos, as in canon the defeat of Lupos by Ulric is only a theory (though it's theorized by at least two different sources, which perhaps suggests it has something to it), and according to Mathilde's rarer Ulric books the question of dogs and their relation to Ulric is a matter of debate in the Cult. If the myths involving Rhya and Ulric also involve Lupos and Ulric, and if the latter connection is suppressed because of its possible implications (chief among them the possiblity that wolves didn't originally 'belong' to Ulric) then perhaps that's why Rhya and Ulric being siblings isn't widely known?

On a sillier note, there's a rhyme called 'Old Wolf White Back' that's central to the canonical theory of Lupos and Ulric. This is a song about Ulric cutting off a wolf's head, and it's theorized by a Sigmarite to symbolize the defeat of (the Cult of) Lupos by (the followers of) Ulric, but I want to draw attention to the very end of the rhyme.
The Rhyme 'Old Wolf White Back' said:
Old Wolf White Back
Old Wolf White Back prowls the hills,
Belly craving fresh new kills.
Bloody Blitzbeil wants him dead,
So, it slices off his head!
Old Wolf White Back howls out loud,
To the cheers of Ulric's crowd.
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So, Old Wolf White Back howls out loud after its head is chopped off. Kind of odd! You might say that this is stupid and looking for plot holes in children's songs is inane, and I would usually agree except that one of the only other substantial mentions of Lupos in canon is a short paragraph about a valley sacred to Him in Hochland, where "it is impossible to kill a wolf within the valley, no matter how badly you wound it." Is the rhyme actually a refrence to the immortal Lupos wolves that keep going even after you cut off their head???
 
mathymancer said:
Is it possible that Boney took inspiration from that and cast the creation of the dog as an Ulric-Rhya team effort? This wouldn't explain "why" Ulric and Rhya are siblings, but it could explain why that fact is suppressed in modern times. I believe the modern Cult of Ulric doesn't tell the story of Ulric beating Lupos, as in canon the defeat of Lupos by Ulric is only a theory (though it's theorized by at least two different sources, which perhaps suggests it has something to it), and according to Mathilde's rarer Ulric books the question of dogs and their relation to Ulric is a matter of debate in the Cult. If the myths involving Rhya and Ulric also involve Lupos and Ulric, and if the latter connection is suppressed because of its possible implications (chief among them the possiblity that wolves didn't originally 'belong' to Ulric) then perhaps that's why Rhya and Ulric being siblings isn't widely known?
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Archives of the Empire III that Andres brings up is actually rather interesting- it presents Ishernos, and thus Taal and Rhya, as being Belthani deities. Which would mean that the later migration of tribes didn't at least initially worship them. How the Taleutens would come to be associated with Taal could be interesting to the thread's questions, assuming Boney is using it.
 
Mopman43 said:
Archives of the Empire III that Andres brings up is actually rather interesting- it presents Ishernos, and thus Taal and Rhya, as being Belthani deities. Which would mean that the later migration of tribes didn't at least initially worship them. How the Taleutens would come to be associated with Taal could be interesting to the thread's questions, assuming Boney is using it.
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Could be that Ishernos was the Belthani deity of similar enough concepts to Taal-and-Rhya that there was agglomeration as the Belthani were assimilated and destroyed.
 
Reading the Thorgrim novella, and as bad as Belegar–Thorgrim relations have been in quest, they're still not as bad as canon.
'Perhaps here in Karak Eight Peaks you let the grobi force your every hand. A true king knows his own mind and will not be veered from it.'

'And if your own damned inflexibility leads you on the path to ruin?'

Thorgrim just watched his pacing. Something about his regard made Belegar begin to feel foolish, so he stopped with an effort, clamming both fists around the rock. It was jagged and bit into his palms.

'You sound like the elgi when they petition for the return of the Phoenix Crown. Perhaps you think I should just give it back as well.'

'My kings!' The messenger sprinted from the East Gate Road, mercifully arriving before Belegar could offer the High King his own suggested destination for the Phoenix Crown of Ulthuan.
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The novella is 120 pages, and a good 40 or so of them are dedicated to Belegar and Thorgrim sniping at one another about how awful the other is at being King.
 
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Mopman43 said:
Archives of the Empire III that Andres brings up is actually rather interesting- it presents Ishernos, and thus Taal and Rhya, as being Belthani deities. Which would mean that the later migration of tribes didn't at least initially worship them. How the Taleutens would come to be associated with Taal could be interesting to the thread's questions, assuming Boney is using it.
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Or it's simply later scholars projecting backwards to make a neater, totalising narrative that puts unconnected things together.

If most of what you're basing your scholarship on is weathered pictographs on standing stones from one side and oral mythic history that was later written down by a third side much later, things like what proper nouns can are vaguely susceptible to translators or scholars pet theories that then become embedded.
 
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So, if I understand the mechanics correctly, if we spent an action on either of:
Bibliothecography (2/3)
History (Old World) (2/3)

We could complete them, and thus get narrative bonuses from it, and a +1 to learning that'd bring us to a very nice 30, is that correct?
 
jjffjhjf said:
So, if I understand the mechanics correctly, if we spent an action on either of:
Bibliothecography (2/3)
History (Old World) (2/3)

We could complete them, and thus get narrative bonuses from it, and a +1 to learning that'd bring us to a very nice 30, is that correct?
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We can't spend an action on Bibliothecography because it's not a science that exists yet. Correct on Old World History to my understanding.
 
Mopman43 said:
Archives of the Empire III that Andres brings up is actually rather interesting- it presents Ishernos, and thus Taal and Rhya, as being Belthani deities. Which would mean that the later migration of tribes didn't at least initially worship them. How the Taleutens would come to be associated with Taal could be interesting to the thread's questions, assuming Boney is using it.
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I looked into Archives of the Empire III and while it does say that, it seems to present that as a somewhat common theory rather than fact. There's a lot of 'theologians believe' and 'it is thought that' sprinkled around a lot of religious stuff in that source (which is actually pretty neat, keeps the world mysterious). It also says a bunch of other interesting things.

For one thing, it claims that Rhya has dominion over spring and summer, and that she "hands off" dominion of the year to Ulric during winter and fall.
Archives of the Empire III said:
Taal's brother is close to Rhya and the two have a familial bond, deeply significant to her followers. Priests have solemn respect for the turning of seasons, as Rhya hands the land to Ulric at the autumn equinox and he returns it to her at the beginning of spring.
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This is another Ulric-Rhya connection that Boney might have drawn on, but on the other hand we do have a quest-canonical conversation that says that Taal has dominion over summer and that there's no fall God, which seems to contradict this.

Another thing is that in that story Andres mentioned it says "Rhya sent her handmaidens Rigga and Vidagg to the women of the tribe." Another paragraph states that
Archives of the Empire III said:
Explorers have returned from Lustria telling of ruins carved with a tall female figure wearing an elaborate headdress, quite unlike the reptilian creatures that rule the jungles. They have called this figure Rhya, but her true identity is obscure.
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The name Vidagg doesn't ring any bells, but the name Rigga does bring to mind this post by @Andres. There might be something to the Rigg-Rhya connection after all.
 
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Andres said:
We can't spend an action on Bibliothecography because it's not a science that exists yet. Correct on Old World History to my understanding.
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Hmm, if we did do the Old World History action, and got that +1 to Learning. Do we think it'd have any kind of significant narrative effect? It seems like a break point of sorts, but I'm not sure how much of that is just from reading Embers for so long that it seems like entering a new tier of skill to me, even though we haven't actually seen any such kind of tier system explicitly in place in this quest. Just that daemonettes were +30 to martial when we did Vlag, so it seems like it'd be a level of skill/knowledge/insight to match even ancient beings. But -shrugs-
 
jjffjhjf said:
Hmm, if we did do the Old World History action, and got that +1 to Learning. Do we think it'd have any kind of significant narrative effect? It seems like a break point of sorts, but I'm not sure how much of that is just from reading Embers for so long that it seems like entering a new tier of skill to me, even though we haven't actually seen any such kind of tier system explicitly in place in this quest. Just that daemonettes were +30 to martial when we did Vlag, so it seems like it'd be a level of skill/knowledge/insight to match even ancient beings. But -shrugs-
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Well… there is no official list, but since the OG Warhammer SB/SV quest it's been a sort of expected that it roughly(very very roughly) brakes down for your 'main skill'.

0-5: you have no idea what your doing
5-10: your bad at it or very very new
10-15: the minimum expected of a human at their main job
15-20: your a respectable professional/ what is expected from a dwarf of age in their craft.
20-25: your a master at what you do as a human/what would be expected for a long beard/ an elf of age.
25-30: your on a list of 'best at what they do as a human'/ respected master dwarf/ professional elf.
35-40: you might actually be one of the top 20 humans alive/ real master dwarf/ hero elf.
40-45: canon badass's/and old monster live here
50+: your probably a dragon/greater demon etc.

Now again, this is not official and changes from quest to quest.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
Well… there is no official list, but since the OG Warhammer SB/SV quest it's been a sort of expected that it roughly(very very roughly) brakes down for your 'main skill'.

0-5: you have no idea what your doing
5-10: your bad at it or very very new
10-15: the minimum expected of a human at their main job
15-20: your a respectable professional/ what is expected from a dwarf of age in their craft.
20-25: your a master at what you do as a human/what would be expected for a long beard/ an elf of age.
25-30: your on a list of 'best at what they do as a human'/ respected master dwarf/ professional elf.
35-40: you might actually be one of the top 20 humans alive/ real master dwarf/ hero elf.
40-45: canon badass's/and old monster live here
50+: your probably a dragon/greater demon etc.

Now again, this is not official and changes from quest to quest.
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Have what Boney said about it ages ago.
Boney said:
10 is average, 20 is impressive, 25-30 is heroic. For Stirland, an ability of about 12 could get the job.
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There's also a really interesting tension where when you're at a high level, the time you might spend grinding your way up even higher could also be spent doing genuine good that otherwise wouldn't get done.
 
And the urge to find some means of reaching even higher heights is one of the more significant approaches that Slaanesh uses to tempt people.

After all, I'm pretty sure that if we got a trait that permitted reliable stat increases at the cost of risking a Piety decrease, a lot of players would be alright with that.
 
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