Hmm... fairly high does not sound like good odds, even with the coin, not given the rather extreme consequences for failure. I think we can shelve the idea with the vampire fog spell, metaphysically possible, but too dangerous to attempt.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Hmm... fairly high does not sound like good odds, even with the coin, not given the rather extreme consequences for failure. I think we can shelve the idea with the vampire fog spell, metaphysically possible, but too dangerous to attempt.
It is a serious setback for silenthilling our home even more. The eternal fog thing would be quite up her alley, and manifesting peoples fears is at least not too far out of her wheelhouse.
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- He/Him/His
Sorry, I thought since I had tagged you on the earlier post and you had since reacted to a few other posts in the thread you had seen it and just didn't have time to respond. Thanks for making the original list, let me know if you have any suggestions for organizing the spells.
I have it under Other Spells because I think it is more about preventing damage on a group than obfuscating the state of the battlefield. But I will classify it however @Derpmind would prefer.
As for spells that I personally am most interested in developing and think stand a good chance of actually being made, Shadow Sword is clearly on top alongside further Apparition spells. Both the Thimblerig and Warriors of Fog seem like interesting spells to make, though their effectiveness depends somewhat on how difficult of Battle Magic they end up being and ensuring the staff applies to the final spell. I am a little concerned that Warriors of Fog might end up being based on Cloak Activity and not being very foggy, and I am very concerned that the Whispering Darkness based Pit of Shades replacement I have seen suggested a lot is not Misty at its core and people are just making assumptions or being overly optimistic. Finally, if we ever free up an Enchantment Slot I would like to make the Incite Conflict spell, but until that happens I consider it unlikely.
No, that RedshirtArmy plan proposal post is where the idea was first suggested. I just cut out the surrounding text to try to capture the core of the idea. Unless you are making a different point and I misunderstood.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
This is a legitimate possibility - if the Rider isn't a real horse, and the Hounds aren't real dogs, then the Whispering Darkness may not "count" as a real fog, for our purposes. I think it's likely to work out, but there are no guarantees.
I think it depends on the shape. If we bind the whispering darkness into the shape of mist, or to mist, it should work. It's never a sure thing, but I'm fairly positiv there.
Eh, boney did say that if it's just cosmetics it doesn't count. And we also got told that we can change the shape of an apparation but that doesn't change what it is.
So we kinda gotta hope the base apparation is susceptible to the staff otherwise I have less hope.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Yeah, I think it's very likely to work - it "naturally" takes the form of "broiling, oily fog of utter blackness, whispering with a thousand voices" or a "whispering cloud" - as long as we don't try to get too clever and outsmart ourselves by trying to bind it into a different shape, it should prooooooobably be fine.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm cautiously optimistic about this: Boney has said that mist/fog needs to be intrinsic to the spell, and with Apparitions, the spell is what gives them form. Mistiness is not a behavioral trait, but a physical one, so if our spell enforces the "physical" consistency of mist, it... should work? Hopefully?
(Unlike with the Rider, where its shape and consistency is that of a mounted rider, and slapping mist on the outside of it fundamentally changes nothing)
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
That was mainly that we couldn't just make the Rider give off fog and call it a day.
If the Apparition has the substance of mist, I think we have good odds.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Would it? Like apparition spells effectively summon apparitions, so surely the summoning mechanism would need to fog/mist based instead of the apparition being so? Boney has actually said Mathidle would need to develop a new non-GGH based technique for mist based stuff to apply before (admittedly that's for Riders so there's a caveat there but the fact it's the GGH techniques that he said were the problem, ot the apparition makes me think it matters for more than just Riders).
It might work, but it might also be that "apparation" as a category trumps other, smaller categories for spell craft.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Is also what gives the Apparition shape. Embodies it in the physical world where before it resided in our soul, invisible and intangible.
- Location
- North Wales
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- He/Him/His
Functionally this is "can we make arbitrary liminal paths". I'd think the research path to doing that would involve first figuring out how to make an artificial liminal path at all, then to make one between two set locations, then to be able to do so on demand.
I don't know how we get started on that first part though. Studying existing liminal paths would be one step forward, maybe.
While it's definitely possible, I'm not too concerned. After all, Pall of Darkness isn't "really" a fog, is it? It's not actually water vapours or smoke or anything like that, it's magic shaped like an impenetrable fog. If we had a Staff that made horse spells easier I would imagine that it would apply to Shadowsteed, even though Shadowsteed isn't an actual horse.
Thinking back to Melkoth's lessons, I think part of the deal might be that giving spells foggy themes requires the fog to be intimately related to the magical effect of the spell in the spellcaster's understanding of Ulgu:
In general trying to shoehorn fog into spells would probably fail for this reason, but with the Whispering Darkness I think we're good, both because the Whispering Darkness is already shaped like a fog and because I think a fog that causes madness fits pretty well in Mathilde's understanding of Ulgu:
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
From what Boney's said about the limits of making Fog Spells before, I'd assume the key isn't that a spell be physically or aesthetically tied to mist and fog, but that it's thematically fog.
So you get things like obscured vision plays a big part in a lot of things, or the likes of the road you cannot see beneath your feet, or something going just out of sight into the density of the fog and you losing all track of it.
A steam tank made of fog would probably have pretty poor resonance with the staff, even if you managed to get such a spell to work with Ulgu. On the flip side a spell that, metaphorically, burns away in the light of the sun to leave a remnant of frost and dew might work even if it had none of the aesthetic at all. (Again, assuming you got it to work with Ulgu and not, say, Hysh)
I am fairly sure the thing that the staff of mists works on are spells. not apparitions. the form of the apparition doesn't matter, the spell is grounded in the golden hound method which is fundamentally not fog or mist aligned.
every single change you can make to the apparition spell as it currently exists, upto and including using a naturally fog like apparition, is cosmetic. because the spell isn't the apparition, it is the spell.
you want an apparition that works with the staff? then you have to make a new spell that isn't based in a very much material and completely solid technique aligned very heavily with the ideas of chamon which are fundamentally not compatible with the staff of mists.
every single change you can make to the apparition spell as it currently exists, upto and including using a naturally fog like apparition, is cosmetic. because the spell isn't the apparition, it is the spell.
you want an apparition that works with the staff? then you have to make a new spell that isn't based in a very much material and completely solid technique aligned very heavily with the ideas of chamon which are fundamentally not compatible with the staff of mists.
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I do not think out Ulgu spell is in any way based on the ideas of Chammon, it is inspired by Chamon but that is as far as it goes. If that kind of secondary focus based on origin would exist then we need to pull the Matrix right now since that one is based on Dhar.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Eh, not really? Like, yes the apparition doesn't exist until you send it forth, but I'd argue it maintains it's shape regardless. Note that Mathilde made the Rider change shape before she bound it to her soul and there's no indication that you have to redo that every time you summon the thing. So it must hold the same shape when it's in the soul or not, and the summoning doesn't actually give it shape, just let it into the material world.
Boney has explicitly said the spell works on the same principles as GGH. It doesn't use Chamon, no, but it works in the same way. That way is not mist based. Now, whether the apparition itself being mist means it triggers the staff is as yet unsettled (hence this conversation) but the spell is not in and of itself.
no. the spell is based on the ideas of chamon.
the matrix is also based on the ideas of dhar, yes.
doesn't really matter though, using the ideas of dhar isn't a problem. only using dhar is.
also, based on doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.
it means, 'this thing was the start point for something'. the origin of the idea, or the method adapted to this purpose.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Wasn't there a mention of having Riders deploy from a fog bank that Boney vaguely okayed? Am I the only one who remembers that?
if i remember correctly he okayed that it would be a possible delivery method, not that the staff would apply.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
He ok'd both, but said it would be an entirely new spell.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Because the Dark Hounds are not mist, and neither are Riders in Red? I mean, it's pretty explicitly been called out that DHs and RiRs are similar, and WDs are different enough that the notes on binding DHs won't be of much help.
No the spell is based on the ideas of GGH which is to say binding things, Chamon is not the only magic that can bind things and it has very little to do with whether or not fog apparitions are really fog. Heck it seems odd that the bindings themselves on something like whispering darkness would be a problem since they were described thus:
Over the next couple of hours, you do your best to figure out how one best binds a horse and rider as a single entity with ropes of fog and confusion, using techniques developed for the shape of a canine and with bonds infused with the nature of metal.
Sure would be unfortunate if the fog ropes got in the way of making a fog spell.
I am not saying the Red Rider should count as fog just because the ropes are made of it, I am saying that more foggy apparitions would likely count.