Fair point, I don't think it would be worth access to Ancient Library on its own personally even if Hysh does lack a summon, but I could see where it might have some value that we could trade in. Actually I think we could trade this in to practically all the colleges bar the Brights (because we only know how to bind directly or indirectly things that eat Bright Magic) for library access, though we probably want to do that after codification, if we can manage it.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Fair point, I don't think it would be worth access to Ancient Library on its own personally even if Hysh does lack a summon, but I could see where it might have some value that we could trade in. Actually I think we could trade this in to practically all the colleges bar the Brights (because we only know how to bind directly or indirectly things that eat Bright Magic) for library access, though we probably want to do that after codification, if we can manage it.
Shallya is the epitome of reason. If Asurian can revive, the infant goddess of healing with the help of Verena may be able to too. Then revive Her sister. With Ranald's help.
- Location
- Hiding in the walls.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
For me, it's not about distrusting Egrimm, it's about not violating the promise to the Golds. One of the things that got us to where we are with the Dawi is that once a deal is made, we stick to that deal; I would prefer to maintain that principle in our personal life as far as we reasonably can (partly, but not entirely, to maintain that reputation). I suspect it's also a factor in why Egrimm likes us - if he does something, he gets fair payment and fair credit, and can trust us to hold to any further stipulations. That would make breaking someone's trust to give him a benefit a pretty mixed bag.
Last edited:
The thing is we are not actually a dwarf though and we do not live by that, see Mathilde's thoughts when speaking to Borek about Dum. She would be perfectly willing to break her word if is proved necessary and that I think is a reasonable way to see things, dwarfs are inhumanly reliable and that does quite a number on their psyches, see the decline of the Karaz Ankor. If this were someone we had some kind of relationship with I would be against it, but we do not have a relationship with Feldman whereas we know and value Egrimm.
Your advocating for destroying our rep with the gold order, the order that we currently have the highest reputation with besides our own, betraying the agreement we made, to get the light order another spell easily applied to deamons, yes?
Did you miss the part where we would ask Egrimm to keep quiet? Also I am not sure where you got 'easily applied to daemons' from. I mean maybe something really dumb like a fury could be chained up with the winds like this but most daemons would laugh at bindings like this.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
There is also a reason the Golds don't want it bandied about that they're binding apparitions, and it applies equally to us. Announcing that that's what we're doing will come with a reputational cost, as not everyone cares about the splitting of hairs we use to justify it. They'll look at it and call it daemon-binding.
Enough agitation about it and the Emperor will politely ask Dragomas to formally or informally ban spells using the mechanism outside of emergencies as not being worth the political cost, technicalities or not.
Enough agitation about it and the Emperor will politely ask Dragomas to formally or informally ban spells using the mechanism outside of emergencies as not being worth the political cost, technicalities or not.
- Location
- Sweden
It should be noted that we can in fact fill Egrimm in on how to do it while also keeping our deal with the Golds, they specifically allowed for it when we bought the info: We just need to take full credit for it ourselves and not tell anyone we got the idea from them.
if we phrase it as something we looked into as a result of the golden hound avenue of approach supposedly falling through, then that would likely further distance the golds from it. I am against doing so in this instance*, but it is a possibility to both share it and keep our word to the golds. infact, it is expected that we do so. hence the 'claim it as your own' stipulation when we do share it.
*I would just prefer we actually get something for it if we ever decide to share it outside of our college. gifts are all well and good, but giving away actual bargaining chips for nothing only really results in you having fewer chips.
Last edited:
Edit: This is all under the assumption that we don't want to have to justify how we have this knowledge. The most well known sources of this knowledge are chaos and necromancy.
So he would only be able to use it when unobserved or he would have to give the knowledge to another light wizard to use to make a spell he can then learn or find a place to pretend he got the knowledge from that stands up to severe scrutiny?
Maybe telling Elrisse we gave the knowledge, but have Egrimm claim it came somewhere else, and have Elrisse there to reassure it didn't come from deamon binding?
This is in my humble opinion the one piece of the college curricula closest to deamons binding and still on the approved list.
Apparition binding + ? = Deamon binding
Given his experience and his order's expertise I give it even odds he has an idea or two for the ?. I remember him talking about an atheme real quick, that makes me think ritual experience.
It may be possible apparition binding was derived from deamon binding, from the Kurgan like some battlemagic.
Last edited:
No, I meant he would hide the connection to the Golds obviously since that is the only thing we promised to hide. Also I am pretty sure the Lights would find the notion that they have special insight into binding daemons insulting. I mean yeah, they probably have something like the Chaos Lore skill Mathilde has, but there is nothing about that that is inherent to the Light College, the reason why they are often called on as daemon hunters is that their wind intrinsically damages creatures of darkness like daemons an the undead
- Location
- Hiding in the walls.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't really see how any of that is applicable to what I was saying.
I'm not saying Mathilde needs to adopt dwarven psychology in its entirety or that she should never go back on anything ever. I'm saying that this has drawbacks because of her reputation with the Dawi and the nature of her relationship with Egrimm.
Or, putting it another way, I like Egrimm. However, I'm not convinced this is going to have the purely positive impact on our relationship with Egrimm that you're proposing it will. And statistically speaking, the more times we take the bet that it's probably not going to get out, the more likely we are to find out that this time we bet wrong, so I'd prefer to keep the number of times we make that bet to a minimum and get the most out of it each time we do.
Our deal with the Golds was that we couldn't tell people that the underlying mechanics for the spell are adapted from a Chamon spell. We have to claim that the binding is 100% an original invention.
There's nothing preventing us from spreading that "original invention" to the other colleges.
That said, Feldmann was really cagey about giving us the information, so it's definitely something we want to consider before doing so.
Then again, the context of a Grey Wizard spreading a "totally not a demonology spell, trust me guys" is slightly different from a Gold wizard doing so, as it can generally be assumed that if we were up to something, we'd be dead.
There's nothing preventing us from spreading that "original invention" to the other colleges.
That said, Feldmann was really cagey about giving us the information, so it's definitely something we want to consider before doing so.
Then again, the context of a Grey Wizard spreading a "totally not a demonology spell, trust me guys" is slightly different from a Gold wizard doing so, as it can generally be assumed that if we were up to something, we'd be dead.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think we'll want to test the spell first - y'know, develop, bind, deploy and all that. Possibly get a second one, not necessarily even the same type of Apparition. If it's our "original invention", it should follow the testing logic of original inventions, in that you make damn sure the spell works before passing it on to anyone.
Not really. It isn't like Feldmann is some rando - he's as high as one can get in the Gold College.
If he and the rest of the Golds doen't want credit it means that there's a lot of political complications to doing so - particularly since the Ambers are also not taking credit for the Flock of Doom despite Dragomas being the SP.
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I like to imagine one of these in an orc camp, and all the outcomes are just WAAAAAAAAGGGGGHWell, the auditory detector not working on orcs is pretty disappointing, but I think I've got an easy solution:
"Oh wait, never mind. I brought my own!"
Now my prefered reveal
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
It was probably learned from the Elves, so that seems unlikely.
Gehenna said the Gehenna that actually invented the spell was probably an Elf.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
The only way I can think of is the opposite route. A large area of effect spell (Battle or Cataclysm sized) that blinds everyone's mage sight in an area for a good long while. Then, over the course of the next however long it lasts you can infiltrate people hit by it with normal magical invisibility. Could be a ritual too.
The problem is that while that would allow stealth in the sense that no one knows where Mathilde exactly is, it would definately alert everyone with magesight that something weird is going on.
Mathide sets off the magical equivalent of a flashbomb, blinding everyone nearby.
The guards looking for her: "Must be the wind."
The guards looking for her: "Must be the wind."
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Would you want to be the guard that finds her?
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
We could probably launder apparition binding as a development from our Matrix, the Necrarch control spells, and further observations on Drycha and the less spooky wood elf spirits and even more spooky hag witch we've been hanging with. I'd certainly be down for that.
Some more of my notes on Lord Ulric and the Making of the World. This is my second post about this myth, after the first part which discussed some points regarding the reliability of and possible alterations to that myth. This second post will discuss Morr's role in the myth (in particular one single significant sentence about Him), as well as some theories about the structure of the pantheons as it appears in the myths.
Morr and Verena play a significant role in LUMW, arguably greater than that of Taal and Manann (and certainly greater than Rhya's). This is notable since LUMW is an Ulrican tale and so might be expected to give greater significance to Ulric's pantheon than to the Classical Gods, leading me to suspect that this is a remnant of the earlier legends that contributed to LUMW rather than a later alteration by the Ulrican editors. What really draws my attention to Morr in particular is this one sentence describing the aftermath of the battle against Chaos:
But the victory was not without cost. Thousands of the gods' servants lay dead. Lesser gods and heralds had been lost forever from the world. The Dragons that had fought with the gods had seen most of their number fall. And worst of all, King Morr himself was gravely wounded. He lived, but was forced to find succour in the Dark Lands and was never more seen on this earth.
This is an utterly bizzare sentence. What do the Dark Lands have to do with Morr? This doesn't seem to make much sense as an account of actual events, but this also doesn't make sense as an alteration by Ulrican editors, because what purpose does it serve? As far as I know there isn't any modern orthodoxy - Ulrican or otherwise - tying Morr to a specific geographic location, least of all the wastelands east of the Empire. And why is Morr singled out for not being seen on the earth, as if the other Gods are still hanging around? Morr dying (if that's what this is) could maybe make sense since He is the God of death, and there is a myth about Him being murdered by Khaine apparently, but again what's with the Dark Lands?
I think that this particular phrase is likely to be a mistranslation or misunderstanding of whatever sources LUMW was collated from, and I propose two possible explanations for what might have been originally intended.
Morr is a dragon
The sentence about Morr finding succor in the Dark Lands appears immediately after the sentence saying that most dragons that fought with the Gods died. The Dark Lands don't have much of anything to do with Morr, but they do have something to do with the dragons, as the Dark Lands contain the Plain of Bones, the ancient graveyard where dragons came to die. According to Deathfang and other sources some dragons treated with the Gods more or less as equals, but that certainly isn't clear from LUMW which barely mentions the dragons. Perhaps the original sources of LUMW told of a particularly important dragon that died, or went to the Plain of Bones and was presumed dead, and then the editors edited that to be about Morr because the idea that the fate of a dragon is as important as the fate of the Gods didn't make sense to them. None of this is to say that the God Morr currently worshipped in the Old World is a dragon, only that it's possible that the figure called Morr in LUMW - or at least in this particular sentence in LUMW - is in fact not Morr but some dragon.
As for which dragon this might have been, I propose Kalgalanos. Deathfang told us that Kalgalanos was one of the five flight leaders of the dragons, and that after the battle of Chaos he was "never seen again", which resembles the line about Morr "never more seen on this earth", and as one of the flight leaders of the dragons it makes sense for Kalgalanos to be important enough to be mentioned. Furthermore, Kalgalanos was known as 'Kalgalanos the Black' and Morr is associated with darkness in LUMW, and in OS is called 'Dark Morr', so It's possible that the epithet of 'black' lead to his conflation with Morr.
Morr is Morai-Heg
At the very start of LUMW the listing of the Gods seems to put Taal and Morr as parts of different hierarchies. Taal and Rhya are described as "Father Taal and Mother Rhya", while Morr is described as "king of the darkness" and Verena as "queen of the light". Later, when Ulric asked Ranald to call for help, it is specifically noted that he should inform Taal and Morr:
He called to his brother Ranald to immediately run to tell Father Taal and King Morr of what they had seen, so they might make ready their armies to drive back this horde.
This lines up with the idea that there are two pantheons, one lead by Taal and one by Morr. From a modern perspective it seems like an obvious allusion to the seperate Classical and Old pantheons, but I suspect there may be a deeper truth hidden there. There's other reasons to believe that there are at least two different pantheons of Gods: Deathfang's mention of Rhya and Isha being seperate and belonging to different groups of Gods, as well as Mathilde's investigation into Karnos indicating that Taal and Kurnous are seperate, and finally the recent side story. All of those seem to imply that there is at least one seperate pantheon from the elven pantheon.
Assuming that Taal and His family are that 'other pantheon', it follows that Verena and Morr might be elf Gods. If Morr is an elf God it's not exactly a mystery which elf God He may be; Morai-Heg, Goddess of death and fate, has a similar domain and a similar name to Morr, and it's a not uncommon in-universe theory that they are one and the same. She is also of the Cytharai*, the elven Gods of the underworld. Verena is explicitly said to be Hoeth by MF, and Hoeth is of the Cadai, the elven Gods of the heavens. This could give meaning to the phrases "queen of the light" and "king of the darkness": during the time of the Coming of Chaos Morai-Heg was leader of the Cytharai and ruler of the Underworld while Hoeth was leader of the Cadai and King of the Heavens.
There's arguably some evidence for that. As far as I know there isn't a canonical "leader of the Cytharai", but there probably is a ruler of the Cadai: Asuryan, Emperor of the Heavens. Asuryan isn't Hoeth, of course, but in both OS and MF Asuryan is thought dead for most of the fight against Chaos and only comes back at the very end. In the Asur pantheonic Mandala the runes of the Cadai are all topped by crowns (except Ladrielle), with Asuryan and Hoeth also having five points above Their crowns. Perhaps this is a remnant of the time Hoeth served as interim leader of the Cadai in Asuryan's absence?
How does this explain the matter of the Dark Lands? If Morai-Heg truly was the leader of the Cytharai, perhaps some source used the phrase "king/queen of the Black Pit/Underworld", the Black Pit being the common translation of 'The Mirai', the name of the elven underworld. Something might have been lost in translation as Black became Dark and Pit became Place or land or something of the sort, and an Imperial editor might have grasped for something familiar and found only the Dark Lands. Morr never being seen again upon this earth isn't entirely explained by this, but I suppose this could be a poetic way of saying that with the Vortex completed and the world drained from magic Morai-Heg could no longer have an avatar in the world (though that begs the question of why Morai-Heg in particular is singled out).
Some other stuff
Was Morr present in the final stand?
OS begins by saying that King Taal was advised(?) by Morr:
And then the Cataclysm came. King Taal rose from His Forest, and with Dark Morr muttering dire portents in His ear, He banished all immortals from the world.
Later on the Gods taking the final stand against Chaos are listed, and Morr isn't among them. This seems to be in contrast to LUMW, which says that Morr did fight against Chaos. Perhaps LUMW is right about Morr not being a great warrior, so He just provided some intel but didn't take part in the actual fight. Perhaps LUMW is right about Morr being heavily injured, so while He was there for the start of the battle He didn't last until the end of the fight.
King Taal and Asuryan
MF says that Taal inherited the rule of the world after His father Asuryan died. This makes no sense if we assume that Taal is actually Kurnous (remember that MF is an Asur tale), and it makes even less sense if we assume that Taal is Taal. One possible interpretation, if we accept the two pantheon theory, is that with the leader of the elf pantheon dead the leader of the non-elf pantheon assumed leadership over all Gods. The side story also seems to be suggest that the elf pantheon might have been in better shape during the Coming of Chaos than the 'regular' pantheon, which might explain why Asuryan was the leader of the Gods before His apparent death.
Khaine and Morr
There are somes myths about Khaine being Morr's brother, and/or of Khaine killing Morr. I think it's not hard to argue that Khaine is the most prominent Cytharai. Perhaps Morr is Morai-Heg and was leader of the Cytharai during the Coming of Chaos but lost Her position to Khaine after it, which could perhaps explain some of those myths.
*Some later canon claims Morai-Heg is neither Cadai nor Cytharai, but Boney seems to discount that as being pretty dumb, and has listed Morai-Heg as Cytharai.
But the victory was not without cost. Thousands of the gods' servants lay dead. Lesser gods and heralds had been lost forever from the world. The Dragons that had fought with the gods had seen most of their number fall. And worst of all, King Morr himself was gravely wounded. He lived, but was forced to find succour in the Dark Lands and was never more seen on this earth.
This is an utterly bizzare sentence. What do the Dark Lands have to do with Morr? This doesn't seem to make much sense as an account of actual events, but this also doesn't make sense as an alteration by Ulrican editors, because what purpose does it serve? As far as I know there isn't any modern orthodoxy - Ulrican or otherwise - tying Morr to a specific geographic location, least of all the wastelands east of the Empire. And why is Morr singled out for not being seen on the earth, as if the other Gods are still hanging around? Morr dying (if that's what this is) could maybe make sense since He is the God of death, and there is a myth about Him being murdered by Khaine apparently, but again what's with the Dark Lands?
I think that this particular phrase is likely to be a mistranslation or misunderstanding of whatever sources LUMW was collated from, and I propose two possible explanations for what might have been originally intended.
Morr is a dragon
The sentence about Morr finding succor in the Dark Lands appears immediately after the sentence saying that most dragons that fought with the Gods died. The Dark Lands don't have much of anything to do with Morr, but they do have something to do with the dragons, as the Dark Lands contain the Plain of Bones, the ancient graveyard where dragons came to die. According to Deathfang and other sources some dragons treated with the Gods more or less as equals, but that certainly isn't clear from LUMW which barely mentions the dragons. Perhaps the original sources of LUMW told of a particularly important dragon that died, or went to the Plain of Bones and was presumed dead, and then the editors edited that to be about Morr because the idea that the fate of a dragon is as important as the fate of the Gods didn't make sense to them. None of this is to say that the God Morr currently worshipped in the Old World is a dragon, only that it's possible that the figure called Morr in LUMW - or at least in this particular sentence in LUMW - is in fact not Morr but some dragon.
As for which dragon this might have been, I propose Kalgalanos. Deathfang told us that Kalgalanos was one of the five flight leaders of the dragons, and that after the battle of Chaos he was "never seen again", which resembles the line about Morr "never more seen on this earth", and as one of the flight leaders of the dragons it makes sense for Kalgalanos to be important enough to be mentioned. Furthermore, Kalgalanos was known as 'Kalgalanos the Black' and Morr is associated with darkness in LUMW, and in OS is called 'Dark Morr', so It's possible that the epithet of 'black' lead to his conflation with Morr.
Morr is Morai-Heg
At the very start of LUMW the listing of the Gods seems to put Taal and Morr as parts of different hierarchies. Taal and Rhya are described as "Father Taal and Mother Rhya", while Morr is described as "king of the darkness" and Verena as "queen of the light". Later, when Ulric asked Ranald to call for help, it is specifically noted that he should inform Taal and Morr:
He called to his brother Ranald to immediately run to tell Father Taal and King Morr of what they had seen, so they might make ready their armies to drive back this horde.
This lines up with the idea that there are two pantheons, one lead by Taal and one by Morr. From a modern perspective it seems like an obvious allusion to the seperate Classical and Old pantheons, but I suspect there may be a deeper truth hidden there. There's other reasons to believe that there are at least two different pantheons of Gods: Deathfang's mention of Rhya and Isha being seperate and belonging to different groups of Gods, as well as Mathilde's investigation into Karnos indicating that Taal and Kurnous are seperate, and finally the recent side story. All of those seem to imply that there is at least one seperate pantheon from the elven pantheon.
Assuming that Taal and His family are that 'other pantheon', it follows that Verena and Morr might be elf Gods. If Morr is an elf God it's not exactly a mystery which elf God He may be; Morai-Heg, Goddess of death and fate, has a similar domain and a similar name to Morr, and it's a not uncommon in-universe theory that they are one and the same. She is also of the Cytharai*, the elven Gods of the underworld. Verena is explicitly said to be Hoeth by MF, and Hoeth is of the Cadai, the elven Gods of the heavens. This could give meaning to the phrases "queen of the light" and "king of the darkness": during the time of the Coming of Chaos Morai-Heg was leader of the Cytharai and ruler of the Underworld while Hoeth was leader of the Cadai and King of the Heavens.
There's arguably some evidence for that. As far as I know there isn't a canonical "leader of the Cytharai", but there probably is a ruler of the Cadai: Asuryan, Emperor of the Heavens. Asuryan isn't Hoeth, of course, but in both OS and MF Asuryan is thought dead for most of the fight against Chaos and only comes back at the very end. In the Asur pantheonic Mandala the runes of the Cadai are all topped by crowns (except Ladrielle), with Asuryan and Hoeth also having five points above Their crowns. Perhaps this is a remnant of the time Hoeth served as interim leader of the Cadai in Asuryan's absence?
How does this explain the matter of the Dark Lands? If Morai-Heg truly was the leader of the Cytharai, perhaps some source used the phrase "king/queen of the Black Pit/Underworld", the Black Pit being the common translation of 'The Mirai', the name of the elven underworld. Something might have been lost in translation as Black became Dark and Pit became Place or land or something of the sort, and an Imperial editor might have grasped for something familiar and found only the Dark Lands. Morr never being seen again upon this earth isn't entirely explained by this, but I suppose this could be a poetic way of saying that with the Vortex completed and the world drained from magic Morai-Heg could no longer have an avatar in the world (though that begs the question of why Morai-Heg in particular is singled out).
Some other stuff
Was Morr present in the final stand?
OS begins by saying that King Taal was advised(?) by Morr:
And then the Cataclysm came. King Taal rose from His Forest, and with Dark Morr muttering dire portents in His ear, He banished all immortals from the world.
Later on the Gods taking the final stand against Chaos are listed, and Morr isn't among them. This seems to be in contrast to LUMW, which says that Morr did fight against Chaos. Perhaps LUMW is right about Morr not being a great warrior, so He just provided some intel but didn't take part in the actual fight. Perhaps LUMW is right about Morr being heavily injured, so while He was there for the start of the battle He didn't last until the end of the fight.
King Taal and Asuryan
MF says that Taal inherited the rule of the world after His father Asuryan died. This makes no sense if we assume that Taal is actually Kurnous (remember that MF is an Asur tale), and it makes even less sense if we assume that Taal is Taal. One possible interpretation, if we accept the two pantheon theory, is that with the leader of the elf pantheon dead the leader of the non-elf pantheon assumed leadership over all Gods. The side story also seems to be suggest that the elf pantheon might have been in better shape during the Coming of Chaos than the 'regular' pantheon, which might explain why Asuryan was the leader of the Gods before His apparent death.
Khaine and Morr
There are somes myths about Khaine being Morr's brother, and/or of Khaine killing Morr. I think it's not hard to argue that Khaine is the most prominent Cytharai. Perhaps Morr is Morai-Heg and was leader of the Cytharai during the Coming of Chaos but lost Her position to Khaine after it, which could perhaps explain some of those myths.
*Some later canon claims Morai-Heg is neither Cadai nor Cytharai, but Boney seems to discount that as being pretty dumb, and has listed Morai-Heg as Cytharai.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Good ol' Malfean stealth.
"NOBODY LOOK AT ME, I'M BEING VERY SNEAKY!"