Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
Parabola said:
Very true! It's likely that we can do some juggling to make sure everyone gets what they want here. For instance, given what Aksel said about most of the Ostland Hedgewise being killed and some of what Codex has written in her informational posts, they would likely appreciate the help of the Hag Witches (whether to do the Halethan or Water Spirit tributaries).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I was thinking of College Wizards as a source of ritual casters (maybe Grey Wizards of (non-Was Jutonian) Hedgefolk origin?) but Hag Witches is an interesting idea, and actually Water Spirit Tributaries are a pretty good idea for at least parts of the Forest. Looking at the maps the Gryphon's Wood has the Talabec river running through it, and tributaries there are almost certainly going to feed into the nearby Gross Selon nexus so that won't be a problem. Southern Ostland has the Wolf's Run river and the Talabec, and again that's probably mostly going to feed into the Hochland and Talabecland nexuses (though we should be a little more careful there, the northern parts of the Wolf's Run might end up being too close to the Brass Keep nexus). The western edge of the Forest of Shadows in Nordland has the Salz river, and that's probably going to feed into the Laurelorn nexus.

That still leaves a lot of dead space further away from the rivers, including the vast majority of Ostland (and therefore the majority of the Forest of Shadows), but it's something.
Parabola said:
...Speaking of Nordland, Mathilde did mention in her inner narration during the Day One Project action that Laurelorn is directly west of Salzenmund. And that's odd, because it would suggest that at one point there was a nexus there, but there isn't, and Aksel never mentioned anything about it so I'm not sure what to think. Perhaps it was destroyed at some point before humans came to the Reik basin?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I wonder about that too. Salzenmund and Laurelorn actually weren't mentioned at all in the mapping action Mathilde took, presumabely because Mathilde already knew the shape of the network there after spending so much time there. Maybe Salzenmund just has a Waystone rather than a nexus? Maybe a Waystone at the end of a line of Waystones leading into Salzenmund or something. I think the nexus/Waystone/tributary divide is a bit of an over simplification and sometimes you have larger Waystones that still aren't nexuses, like the Obelisk of Laws (though that one is also a non-elven Waystone).
 
vsh said:
I was referring to all of our kit, which is frankly speaking priceless. But even just the robes, at a glance, clearly are expensive and very likely to be magical. If our revolver and belt are visible, they are of exquisite dwarven work and very expensive as well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You kind of expect a Lady Magister to have bespoke gear though. That's not really an indication that they're excessively wealthy.
 
Last edited:
Voikirium said:
Pictured:
A reactionary, Imperialist, gerontocrat throwing his people's lives away on a mad crusade. Also Reagan is there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Where is soulcake when you need him...
Parabola said:
Edit: Like, yes, the Elementalists are still overall better than necromancers, rogue Magickers or the like. But that's a low bar to clear.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We've had this discussion. The other side of your argument is that having magic is not a choice and needing training should not oblige you to join your racist nation's military hierarchy, even if most positions in the institution they'd put you in are R&D.
Parabola said:
That lack of official oversight from outside is dangerous, as is their reputation of being mercenary with their magic. If Wissenland seceded tomorrow, there's a good chance they could simply be paid to go against the rest of the Empire, since they have no known institutional principles or incentives that go against this. Similarly, I'm not really convinced a good number of them wouldn't just flee the Empire the next time Chaos knocks on its doorsteps.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
On the other hand a Grey Wizard and the now current leader of the Amethysts conspired to have the Empress killed without anyone else knowing.

And I'm pretty sure that during a Three Emperors style civil war the College would back the "rightful" Reikland Emperor against the "rebels tearing the Empire apart".
 
pucflek said:
A carpenter having good furniture is not an indicator of wealth, its indicator of skill in their chosen vocation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mostly agree with your point, but if the furniture is made of some very expensive imported woods, it generally is an indicator of wealth. That, or a lunatic who went out to grab that wood for himself. Mathilde could plausibly fall in the lunatic category, cause she often does, but in this case she imported.
 
DragonParadox said:
Why is official oversight better than the lack of official oversight? After all competence in matters of magic isn't inherently tied with obedience to the local warlord. Now we do know that Elementalists have more of a Dhar and insanity problem that College magisters, but that is a matter of less refined paradigm not strictly of imperial oversight and control. If they fell under the incidence of the Articles tomorrow they would not be any better at not exploding into daemons or going mad since they would still cast from the same lore of magic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oversight means accountability, and accountability is good when the people in an organization are capable of magical devastation.

Hell, this is the reason the Greys are heavy on internal accountability: it would be very hard for those outside to truly be able to make sure they're not up to no good.

Ultimately, it is not the competence of Elementalists that I doubt, but their motives.

Rafin said:
On the other hand a Grey Wizard and the now current leader of the Amethysts conspired to have the Empress killed without anyone else knowing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is cleaving directly to Article 1, so if anything it's proof that the Colleges are extremely loyal to Teclis and Magnus' ideals.

Rafin said:
And I'm pretty sure that during a Three Emperors style civil war the College would back the "rightful" Reikland Emperor against the "rebels tearing the Empire apart".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Actually, I imagine this would depend a lot on who the rightfully elected Emperor is, whether any of the other claimants were planning anything truly horrible, or things of the like. That could go any way depending on circumstances.

But i do think this is again getting into the X-Men problem of how in real life people who are discriminated against aren't born with the capacity for potentially deadly superpowers. It makes talking about these quest elements difficult.

I've gotten too defensive in my wording thus far, so I'll leave it at that.
 
Parabola said:
This is cleaving directly to Article 1, so if anything it's proof that the Colleges are extremely loyal to Teclis and Magnus' ideals.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's still a sign that the oversight isn't all that. In fact even under normal circumstances the line of oversight goes The Emperor (a noble dude that a bunch of other nobles plus the church kinda liked when the last one died) -> The Supreme (wizard that wins all the one on one duels) -> The other seven internally chosen leaders that subscribe to their individual organization's philosophy -> The Magisters Vigilant (internal investigation unit that might go "we investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong").

The only oversight that the Elementalists definitely lack are the first two. Because I'm sure they have a guild leader of some kind and they probably also have an internal unit specialized at hiding fuckups from the racist state and population, which includes putting down their own Dhar dabblers and other problem cases.

I guess the point I and some others are trying to make is that the Imperial government isn't providing very much concrete oversight and also that it is neither legitimate enough (by moderns standards) nor competent enough in the field for that oversight to mean much.
 
Last edited:
Parabola said:
Oversight means accountability, and accountability is good when the people in an organization are capable of magical devastation.

Hell, this is the reason the Greys are heavy on internal accountability: it would be very hard for those outside to truly be able to make sure they're not up to no good.

Ultimately, it is not the competence of Elementalists that I doubt, but their motives.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Accountability is only good when you trust the authority doing the oversight more than you do the people being audited. In the case of Imperial authority that means 'whichever warlord was born with the right silver spoon in his mouth and managed to convince his fellow nobles that he's the best of them'.

We do not know what kind of internal accountability the elementalists have, maybe its even stricter than the Grey Order

As for their motives those seem to be pretty clear, profit and advancement... which incidentally is also the motive of the Empire on a macro scale.

Edit: Mathilde'd by @Rafin
 
Last edited:
Parabola said:
But i do think this is again getting into the X-Men problem of how in real life people who are discriminated against aren't born with the capacity for potentially deadly superpowers. It makes talking about these quest elements difficult.

I've gotten too defensive in my wording thus far, so I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I prefer to use rhetoric comparing them to "gun rights advocates", instead of minorities.
It works quite well for most X-Men, considering.
 
Re-reminder that the Elementalists know their position is shakier because the Colleges have once upon a time taken on an Emperor and came out not much worse for it, they can't(or at least hadn't revealed such an ability).

That means amongst other things their magic is going to be focused around the small stuff that can't get their entire organization shuttered and staked, when they know the Intrigue wizards have a personal interest in finding any evidence of wrongdoing. Stuff that nobles are willing to pay lots of money for.
As for their ability to get up to dumb shit...again, look to the Colleges, and you'll see that oversight quite often misses all the signs on the simple basis that they're saying what their overseer wants to hear.

Black Magisters are a considerable problem, even if they're rare, we hadn't heard of as many notable Black Elementalists by contrast.
 
A so far unremarked on benefit of having the elementalists make an appearance in story - and in a positive context at that - is that it might finally end the interminable elementalists discourse. Fingers crossed.
(and hopefully codifying RoW will also end the bi-monthly "is RoW useless" debates)
 
I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough that the Elementalists (along with several other magical traditions) take Telcesian theory and casually break it over their knees regularly. Which is the other major reason the colleges hate them.

Honestly a big part of the Colleges dislike of the Elementalists can probably be summed up as:
College wizards with a crush: "But Telcis-Senpai said....."
Elementalist: "Lol, Fire Golem. I just proved Telcis was empirically wrong."
College wizards with a crush: "I... um... that is to say...." Stomps feet angrily. "Telcis-senpai taught us and I'm better at fighting armies than you. So you have to be wrong. Telcis-senpai is awesome."
Elementalist: "Cool, Telcis was an awesome fighter. Still emprirically wrong tho."
College wizards with a crush:"But...but... but..."
Elementalist: "Dwarven. Runecraft."
College wizards with a crush:"Muffled screaming".

Boney said:
This is the energy that Runecraft uses, and one of the fundamental secrets of Runecraft is how you can have large amounts of this inert energy in one place with it remaining inert and not remanifesting one of its other natures. It's also the magic that is theorized to be behind the non-Teclisean magics like Hedgecraft and Elementalism and the like, using this inert magic to fuel lesser spells that can take just about any form because they don't have a fundamental nature that one has to work around. That these non-Teclisean traditions are often able to perform feats that Teclisean theory says are impossible using only earthbound magic is a bit of a sticking point in that whole theoretical framework.

Teclisean theory: "Well, technically if you use only tiny amounts of magic then you can shape it into any framework you imagine, but if you get too much magic together it will reassert an identity so you could only cast the most petty and minor of spells..."
Elementalists: "Haha fire golem goes brrr."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Humbaba said:
I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough that the Elementalists (along with several other magical traditions) take Telcesian theory and casually break it over their knees regularly. Which is the other major reason the colleges hate them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Maybe thats why they're so enthusiastic in handing over their books.
If someone puts this much effort into getting their stuff, maybe they will finally read all the rebuttals and counterproofs the Colleges keep ignoring.
Dozens of disgruntled academics going:
"You want our knowledge, fine, lets start with this: 100 REASONS TECLIS WAS WRONG."
 
Humbaba said:
I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough that the Elementalists (along with several other magical traditions) take Telcesian theory and casually break it over their knees regularly. Which is the other major reason the colleges hate them.

Honestly a big part of the Colleges dislike of the Elementalists can probably be summed up as:
College wizards with a crush: "But Telcis-Senpai said....."
Elementalist: "Lol, Fire Golem. I just proved Telcis was empirically wrong."
College wizards with a crush: "I... um... that is to say...." Stomps feet angrily. "Telcis-senpai taught us and I'm better at fighting armies than you. So you have to be wrong. Telcis-senpai is awesome."
Elementalist: "Cool, Telcis was an awesome fighter. Still emprirically wrong tho."
College wizards with a crush:"But...but... but..."
Elementalist: "Dwarven. Runecraft."
College wizards with a crush:"Muffled screaming".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think you are wrong about that. Why? Look at the Hedgewise. They clearly do spooky things with magic that should not be allowed, the trout powered Dhar moving mechanism comes to mind and yet Algard's reaction is 'better take your time recruiting them' *wink wink nudge nudge*. It is not even just a Grey Order thing born of sympathy to them, Dragonas goes out of his way to argue with the Grand Theogonist about them.

So then are the hedgewise inherently more trustworthy in the eyes of the Colleges? They too sell their services, you cannot even argue that they are inherently opposed to getting wealthy, some of them serve Ranald. I think we have sufficient proof that he not only does not disapprove of his followers getting very wealthy, but will actively help.

The real difference I think is far simpler, the Hedgewise are out in the wilds seeing to the needs of peasants, the Elementalists cater to the whims of the nobility and are already legal, in short they are competition, not just for patronage and resources, but in extremis for the position of 'magical tradition of the Empire'. While they exist as an independent tradition the chances of the Colleges being outlawed again are that much more real, for all it's far from likely
 
Last edited:
allmightytoaster said:
Maybe thats why they're so enthusiastic in handing over their books.
If someone puts this much effort into getting their stuff, maybe they will finally read all the rebuttals and counterproofs the Colleges keep ignoring.
Dozens of disgruntled academics going:
"You want our knowledge, fine, lets start with this: 100 REASONS TECLIS WAS WRONG."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I now have no choice but to repost this meme I made about two years ago.

 
The Elementalists already have oversight upon them. As they exist as a branch of the University of Nuln and are under immense scrutiny by Templars and Colleges.

Boney said:
The College of Elementalism still exists as a branch of the University of Nuln under extremely close scrutiny from both the Templars and the Colleges. It lacks the prestige and the power of the Colleges, but it still attracts students. Apprentices that don't want to live with the obligations of the Teclisean Colleges but don't want their magic suppressed either often end up 'running away' to Nuln, and as they still technically exist under an Emperor-recognized College of Magic they're legally in the clear. The Colleges usually consider getting rid of someone with the belief of 'I want power but I don't want to actually help the Empire with it' to be in their best interest, and them going to Nuln means at least they're not learning necromancy or sorcery, and they're easy to keep an eye on.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

With the addition of them of also gaining students who are incompatible with the manner the Colleges function and reducing the amount of individual who become necromancers or other dark magic practitioners. Along with them providing a paradigm that much of the Colleges that they would find difficult to fulfill.
 
Rafin said:
We've had this discussion. The other side of your argument is that having magic is not a choice and needing training should not oblige you to join your racist nation's military hierarchy, even if most positions in the institution they'd put you in are R&D.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Getting some magic supression jevelery and going to do literally any other job is always a choice so clearly we can say having magic is a choice and any argument that leans on that is wrong.
 
Tasoli said:
Getting some magic supression jevelery and going to do literally any other job is always a choice so clearly we can say having magic is a choice and any argument that leans on that is wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

To an extent, but it should be borne in mind just how much revulsion Mathilde felt for the idea. Those talismans inflict something akin of partial blindness and paralyses. One has to be pretty dead set against the notion of magic to take them.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top