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The words echo unpleasantly in your head, and grow. A thought unfolds uncomfortably in your mind, and you're taken back to a day forgotten some fifteen years ago. A voice, unfamiliar to you, droning in a bored voice. "Number thirty-two. The Ratmen and the Conspiracy of Silence. If you believe you are accessing this memory in error, please contact the Grey College at your earliest convenience."

Nobody has ever claimed to have successfully enchanted something with Mindhole. A fair few Grey Wizard enchanters have found themselves really confused about what they've been doing for the last month, and often end up spending the next few days tripping over some sort of object, having forgotten where or even what it was.

Sounds like a job for the Antimemetics Division. :p

Well, we can tick number 055 off the grey order secrets list.

Wouldn't be the Grey Order without at least one of those things laying around.

Edit: I also assume there is a secret list somewhere in the patriarch office titled "The Things LM Melkoth Is Not Allowed To Do At The College"
 
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She should already have a grounding of math from her grandmother. So there's that. But i don't really see the need for any higher level stuff until she actually decides she wants to do something heavily using that. If she wants to go into accounting to figure out corruption or actually take over the EIC then sure but otherwise I just don't see it.
"Indirectly," you say. "Trigonometry comes in handy in some esoteric corners of Wizardry."
I doubt that trigonometry is the only branch of mathematics that is useful in wizardry but might not be that interesting for the purposes of accounting.
 
I doubt that trigonometry is the only branch of mathematics that is useful in wizardry but might not be that interesting for the purposes of accounting.
It was the first direct application i could think of that a grey wizard would maybe use it for and need to learn outside of the colleges. My point is mostly that we are here to make Eike into a effective and successful grey wizard. If Eike shows any inclination towards areas where a major background in the natural sciences is necessary we should teach her. But boney has pointed out multiple times that in the empire, you learn what you need to survive and thrive, if you know your going to be a shepherd, you don't learn math or writing.
 
I know I said that I was retired and I wasn't going to be doing the old stuff about delving into old sources, but I was so scared I was making a wrong statement that I had to check for myself. I was right, page 137 of the core book for 7th Edition WHF is the one that mentions an Elven army:

Practically every other source, including the more modern ones, refute this part. You'll have to trust me on this though, because I lost motivation at this point.

Or I guess @Mopman43 could pick it up? Pretty please 🥺

I lost access to many of my sources as of late. Really drains the scholarly interest.
All right, starting off:

4th edition Empire- no mention of Elves, Teclis or otherwise. (It was the very first army book, might be they didn't hammer that detail out until High Elves 4th edition?)
6th edition Empire- page 77 has a letter from Teclis about the GWAC, where he just says himself, Yrtle, and Finreir (I will be abbreviating this to TYF from now on).
7th edition Empire- page 14-15 is the account of the GWAC, mention is only made of Teclis during the fighting, and 'his companions' advising against building the Colleges.
8th edition Empire- page 11, only mentions Teclis.

4th edition High Elves- page 30 says it was just TYF (part of the Book of Days)
5th edition High Elves- page 31, same entry in the BoD as 4th edition, just TYF.
6th edition High Elves- page 69, Teclis's entry, just TYF.*
7th edition High Elves- page 41, same BoD entry, just TYF.
8th edition High Elves- page 29, just mentions Teclis.

2nd edition Realms of Sorcery- page 27, just TYF.
4th edition Winds of Magic- page 13, just TYF.

I'm going to stop looking here, but I have yet to find any example beyond that bit in the 7th edition Core Book for any force from Ulthuan beyond TYF joining the fight.

*Fun fact, this book has the only example I'm aware of of the High Elves restoring a Waystone in the Old World. It consisted of them sailing to a village in Nordland, wiping out the inhabitants, razing a Church of Ulric, and putting the obelisk where the church was. Does not appear to have involved any attempt at diplomacy.
 
It was the first direct application i could think of that a grey wizard would maybe use it for and need to learn outside of the colleges. My point is mostly that we are here to make Eike into a effective and successful grey wizard. If Eike shows any inclination towards areas where a major background in the natural sciences is necessary we should teach her. But boney has pointed out multiple times that in the empire, you learn what you need to survive and thrive, if you know your going to be a shepherd, you don't learn math or writing.
My point was that Eike probably needs to study some fields of mathematics to be ( or thrive as ) a grey wizard. Calculus is another example Mathilde needed relatively early:
You find the wizard right where Hubert told you he would be, and you allow him the satisfaction of having expected your arrival and you allow him the customary fifteen minutes to talk your ear off about his topic of choice, which turns out to be the debated existence of a tenth planet, and how calculus factors into the debate. Due to reading you did to properly describe the Matrix, you find yourself surprisingly able to follow his argument, and being able to engage with the topic dear to his heart instead of merely smiling and nodding earns you enough goodwill that when his time is over, he does not hesitate to turn over control of the discussion.
 
My point was that Eike probably needs to study some fields of mathematics to be ( or thrive as ) a grey wizard. Calculus is another example Mathilde needed relatively early:
Yes, and my point is that anything beyond normal wizarding scale is dependent (for me at least) on if it would be useful for the grey wizard Eike will become. I'm betting the colleges have rudimentary math and literacy classes just for being able to blend in wherever. But anything going beyond that just seems ... Not useless but frivolous? Unnecessary? Something like that. (At least to me)
 
I'm going to stop looking here, but I have yet to find any example beyond that bit in the 7th edition Core Book for any force from Ulthuan beyond TYF joining the fight.
My understanding is that the novel Mark of Chaos features a small High Elf force (well, as small as a force that includes a dragon can be considered) aiding the Empire during the Great War Against Chaos, but I haven't read the book myself.
 
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All right, starting off:

4th edition Empire- no mention of Elves, Teclis or otherwise. (It was the very first army book, might be they didn't hammer that detail out until High Elves 4th edition?)
6th edition Empire- page 77 has a letter from Teclis about the GWAC, where he just says himself, Yrtle, and Finreir (I will be abbreviating this to TYF from now on).
7th edition Empire- page 14-15 is the account of the GWAC, mention is only made of Teclis during the fighting, and 'his companions' advising against building the Colleges.
8th edition Empire- page 11, only mentions Teclis.

4th edition High Elves- page 30 says it was just TYF (part of the Book of Days)
5th edition High Elves- page 31, same entry in the BoD as 4th edition, just TYF.
6th edition High Elves- page 69, Teclis's entry, just TYF.*
7th edition High Elves- page 41, same BoD entry, just TYF.
8th edition High Elves- page 29, just mentions Teclis.

2nd edition Realms of Sorcery- page 27, just TYF.
4th edition Winds of Magic- page 13, just TYF.

I'm going to stop looking here, but I have yet to find any example beyond that bit in the 7th edition Core Book for any force from Ulthuan beyond TYF joining the fight.

*Fun fact, this book has the only example I'm aware of of the High Elves restoring a Waystone in the Old World. It consisted of them sailing to a village in Nordland, wiping out the inhabitants, razing a Church of Ulric, and putting the obelisk where the church was. Does not appear to have involved any attempt at diplomacy.
Far more comprehensive than I expected. Excellent work. I appreciate it a lot.
 
My understanding is that the novel Mark of Chaos features a small High Elf force (well, as small as a force that includes a dragon can be considered) aiding the Empire during the Great War Against Chaos, but I haven't read the book myself.
If that is what I think it is, it is based on the video game of the same name, which feature the high elves in the duo empire-high elves campaign. set after the great war against chaos.

I don't recall if the game mention what came to the empire aid during the great war, but it does have them unusually active with a full expedition army during the resurgence of one of the Chaos champion that was in Asavar Kul army. And anyway have them there for the same reason Total war played darts with the legendary lords placement. to have a reason to have as many armies as the developer can make be in weird places so they could fight different factions.

Anyway novelization based on a video game is far down the canon list.
 
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Speaking of memes:

"Feasting on the insides of your enemies. How easily you ignore the loss of life when it suits your convenience. So tell me: who saves the weak from the woman who saves the weak? Kill or be killed Mathilde. Phnom Penh taught me that. Yes, you aren't the only one to grow up on the killing fields. War is a cruel parent but an effective teacher. It's final lesson is carved deep in my psyche: that this world, and all it's people are diseased. Free will is a myth. Religion is a joke. We are all pawns, controlled by something greater: memes. The Aethyr of the soul. They shape our will. They are the culture — they are everything we pass on. Expose someone to anger long enough, they will learn to hate. They become a carrier. Envy, greed, despair... All memes, all passed along. You can't fight nature, Mathilde. Wind blows, rain falls, and the strong pray upon the weak. Sam tells me you see your weapon as a tool. Something that saves lives — a means of justice. Now there's a pretty meme. Exquisite! It's spared you the burden of all the lives you've taken... ...absolved you of guilt when you enjoyed it. That is until the illusion was broken. Don't be ashamed. It's only nature, running its course. You have no choices to make. Nothing to answer for. You can die with a clear conscience." -Some follower of Slaanesh confronting Mathilde probably

Look, this is a small price to pay if it allows Mathilde to run up the side of a fifty foot tall chaos rune golem and bisect it with one slash
 
I find it interesting that Qretch only asked about poisons/potions/magic when he started living longer than expected.

Because mind/emotion effects to make him more loyal or truthful? Plausible.
Delayed poisons to kill him if he escapes or causes more trouble than he's worth? Of course.
But life-extension technologies? ...why?


Because a lot of people connected that comment to Qretch noticing the effects of aging, and thus him thinking Mathilde was negatively affecting him...
I'm connecting it to the fact that he'd never known a Skaven so old that wasn't being prolonged by alchemical/magical/transhuman means, and thinking that Mathilde was positively affecting him.
 
Look, this is a small price to pay if it allows Mathilde to run up the side of a fifty foot tall chaos rune golem and bisect it with one slash

Running up the side is already possible with some creative Skywalk usage (see us using skywalk when scaling the cliffs during the original K8P reclamation), but to cut something that large in half with one swing, we're gonna need that anime as hell Branulhune variant of Penumbral Pendulum that I keep hoping we can figure out.
 
In terms of master, I have no idea why, but my brain devolved into a tangent on the word. Master, historically, has been a gendered term referring to men. The feminine version is mistress. Yet the terms have gained different connotations over the years. I've seen master being used as a gender neutral term far more than I've seen mistress used, and that word has a different connotation, usually related to some sort of female head of the household.

The Orders in general are fairly relaxed about consistency with gendered terms, and whether a female who's promoted past Magister goes by Lord Magister or Lady Magister is up to them. Mathilde's not super consistent about it, and if memory serves has used both, generally Lady Magister when talking to people from the Empire and Lord Magister when talking to those who aren't to minimize the potential for confusion. For different reasons she generally goes by 'Knight' instead of 'Dame', because 'Dame' is often used to refer to the wife of a Knight. As for Master, she thinks of it as an ungendered term because she's had more exposure to and more reason to think deeply about the Dwarven system of Masters and Apprentices, and Khazalid doesn't have a gendered term for it.

(and of course the exact same implications and associations of things like 'Lord vs Lady' and 'Master vs Mistress' wouldn't apply in Reikspiel, but down that path lies madness)

Also an interesting tidbit on Eike not having ever been directly exposed to the sun for three years. On one hand, that sounds pretty bad to most humans because the sun is required for a healthy experience. Cicadian rhythm and health cycle requires it. But the Sun is full of Hysh and can interfere with the inner mechanisms of the Grey College, which is directly opposed to Hysh. In that manner, she would not be exposed to much Hysh if any as her body acclimated to Ulgu. In fact, it might be that Ulgu directly changes an individual's body to accomodate their own unique cycle independent of the sun.

It's also something of a necessary evil because most of the grounds of the Grey Order don't exist in the same plane as the sun, though there's a windowed reading room in reality that is accessible from the College for those that want or need to see sunlight from time to time. A full courtyard couldn't be warded against the intrusion of other Winds and so wouldn't be safe for Junior Apprentices.

Classic Mathilde. Reading one book is not enough, she needs to read two reciting the same story translated differently in a conflicting manner. Clearly an exercise in conflicting thought process and resolution/compartmentalisation. Necessary skills for a Grey Wizard. Being able to hold two conflicting thoughts on the same thing is an excellent source of Ulgu.

There's two different versions of the story in canon, one in the 7th Edition book for Skaven and one in the fluffbook The Loathsome Ratmen and All Their Vile Kin, which is explained in-universe as two different translations by two different scholars. Comparing different translations of something is a good way to make sure that the message of the original hasn't been skewed by a translator along the way.

I don't know why, but the first person I thought of when I saw that book's title was Franz Lohner, who has stated that he worked as a former Mercenary in the Grudgebearers company and lives in Reikland. But then I reconsidered because he was a mercenary not a bounty hunter, so I then thought of the only notable bounty hunter I really know of, Brunner. He even has a writer friend who he tells stories to, so I could see his tales being published. I'm simply not certain if that's the case. It could be something else or it could not be referencing anything in particular.

The book exists in canon. It's about the adventures of Anton Veidt, a character in the Drachenfels novel.

A bit surprising that Boney would reference the Children of Ulric, especially since the priests of Ulric typically don't mention them in their sermons and it's often thought of as a fairy tale. Maybe that's the source of hesitation, or maybe the hesitation is from mentioning that the blessed of Ulric may be Beastmen.

I would struggle to believe that Mathilde would encourage a fairy tale, so I suppose there is a chance they exist. Although Mathilde may simply reinforce the possibility they exist, because something something ulgu, paranoia etc.

Mathilde says it's a good guess because Eike is suggesting the possibility even though associating them with Beastmen goes against a surface reading of the myths about them.

This is all stuff we already know and that has been gone over, so I don't envy that Boney had to go over it again to further develop the conversation because it would have been awkward to say "and then you told her about the Skaven" and call it a day. I suppose it's still a good way to reiterate the Conspiracy of Silence to mollify the semi-frequent arguments had in this thread about it, and to provide Mathilde's perspective on the subject.

Also the discussion on the Horned Rat and his Chaotic status. We often lump him in with the Chaos Gods because he is defined as such in many sources, but he isn't part of the Big Four so it makes sense that in-universe they would have no reason to necessarily consider him a Chaos God.

It also works in the perspective that it's a lot more mutual of an unspoken arrangement than the Empire being so absolutely terrified of the rats that they pretend they don't exist, which is a reading I've had to push back on a time or two. 'The Skaven could wipe out the Empire' is something a lot of fans of the setting repeat and might be technically true, but it would require that the Skaven be absolutely united in purpose instead of each Clan trying to minimize how much the war costs them while still trying to claim all the credit for themselves, and also keeping an eye on any other Clan that weakens themselves enough that they might be vulnerable. Most of the war that Mandred Skavenslayer got his name in was Rictus and Mors maneuvering to try to make it so the other took the majority of the casualties, and because of that both Clans' armies were wiped out and both of their Warlords were killed. In a war between Empire and Under-Empire where the Skaven acted like Skaven, both sides would lose.

Of course, this is all business to Mathilde. Or at least, that's what she tells herself. Even trained professionals with a strong sense of morals can often form a connection with horrible serial killers in interrogations, and Mathilde has probably made a connection to Qrech such that she feels a level of sympathy towards him. It's a controlled kind of sympathy, one that is tempered by firsthand experience with Skaven society and all the atrocities it has commited (see the Breeder update), but it exists.

Which is why the second part exists. It's not entirely practical reasons she's doing this. There is still a part of Mathilde that would like Qrech to die a little happier than he is now, despite all the bad things he might do if he were to be set free. He's not a good person, but that doesn't mean he isn't deserving of some empathy.

I think that it's rare for anyone to do anything for just one reason. There's usually something they pick out as The Reason, usually something that reinforces their image of themselves, but there's always other factors at play. Mathilde does a lot of things with ruthless cunning Grey Wizard reasons at the forefront, but that it tends to result in nice things happening for the people around her is definitely a factor. But this isn't just because she likes to think of herself as the cunning manipulator, it's to constantly remind herself that if it does come down to it, her job is to choose to do what needs to be done over doing what makes the people around her happy.

So, I have a very important question:

Where in Mathilde's fastness does Eile sleep? Repurposed training room? In with the puppies?

How will Mathilde rearrange her living space to accommodate an apprentice?

There's already a guest room available. From the charsheet:
Entrance: Heavily Fortified Pleasant Foyer

B1: Sitting Room / Library
B2: Guest Room / Trophy Room / Map Room
B3: Bedroom / Bathroom / Wolf's Room / Shrine to Ranald
B4: Extremely Secure Dungeon / Vault / Workshop / Training Hall / Dragon Room

actually @Boney do we have an idea about her 'magic number' at this point?

I'm assuming magic 2, can cast lesser shadow magic, but not reliably: but we know she was going to be pretty strong magically. So she might, might be Magic 3 already.

Mathilde will get to know her well enough to judge all that after working with her for a bit.

Out of curiosity Boney, is the Dark Elves razing L'Anguille to the ground and enslaving all of its inhabitants (from the 8th edition DE army book) some 60 years ago quest-canon? (Figure that's probably the most prominent recent atrocity in the Old World that Mathilde would be aware of)

It is.

@Boney what spells does Eike have? It's not so much that I think they will be relevant in the next turn, but I am curious as to what it might mean for her inclination magic-wise coming out of her Junior Apprenticeship.

She doesn't. She's been taught the theoretical and practical groundwork to get her to the point where she can start reliably grasping and manipulating magic, rather than just letting any errant breeze of Winds wander through her soul.
 
Just occurred to me, was Qrech speaking Reikspiel during that conversation? I'd thought that Khazalid was still our only common language, and I can't remember if translation is one of those things that the Grey Order intermediaries between him and the University do, or if he has just learned it spoken and written since then. Or maybe Eike is just fluent in Khazalid already?
 
Wow, this really is a social turn full of juicy stuff. As if the Khsar bombshell wasn't enough, we also have the external. And I'm still looking forward to Kasmir and the bog gods.
 
Just occurred to me, was Qrech speaking Reikspiel during that conversation? I'd thought that Khazalid was still our only common language, and I can't remember if translation is one of those things that the Grey Order intermediaries between him and the University do, or if he has just learned it spoken and written since then. Or maybe Eike is just fluent in Khazalid already?
Eike probably would know the basics of Khazalid because it would have been a thing that it would have made sense for her to study on account of both the EIC and her most likely future master.
 
Just occurred to me, was Qrech speaking Reikspiel during that conversation? I'd thought that Khazalid was still our only common language, and I can't remember if translation is one of those things that the Grey Order intermediaries between him and the University do, or if he has just learned it spoken and written since then. Or maybe Eike is just fluent in Khazalid already?

It was in Reikspiel, Qrech learned it because most of his sources are in it and most of his correspondents don't speak Khazalid. Eike does have a bit of Khazalid, though.
 
@Boney sorry if this is too much poking on systems you do not have yet, but will Eike learning specifies spells be something we have control of and if so what might the action cost of that be? I ask because I'm thinking of teaching her sounds and glowing lights so that at least she would be able to signal for help in an emergency and also those are some pretty fun spells to have more generally I imagine.
 
@Boney sorry if this is too much poking on systems you do not have yet, but will Eike learning specifies spells be something we have control of and if so what might the action cost of that be? I ask because I'm thinking of teaching her sounds and glowing lights so that at least she would be able to signal for help in an emergency and also those are some pretty fun spells to have more generally I imagine.

My current plan is that there'll be an add-on to the current turn vote that says "which actions is Eike tagging along for" and "specify which spell or skill she is to study".
 
Eike's first miscast should be an interesting scene. If she ended up calling an apparition to hunt her I doubt Mathilde would fall into the, let the apprentice deal with it to toughen them up, camp of opinions on what to do.
 
Eike's first miscast should be an interesting scene. If she ended up calling an apparition to hunt her I doubt Mathilde would fall into the, let the apprentice deal with it to toughen them up, camp of opinions on what to do.
That becomes a three birds with one stone situation
1. Help my apprentice
2. Teach my apprentice (not the same lesson Regimand wanted Mathilde to learn :V)
3. Catch an Apparition
 
With that in mind what do you guys think would be the best petty spell for Eike? I underlined my top two choices and the reasoning above.
Sounds is nice, but if you want the ability to signal for help wouldn't Marsh Lights be more useful than Glowing Light?
Maybe we can learn all three, I don't know how many petty magics we can fit into a single action - Mathilde apparently learned all petty magics pretty early. We should probably wait for that kind of thing to become clearer before we make plans.

Also, is MAPP petty magic? In the update it was introduced it was said that an apprentice can cast it, so it's probably lesser magic at worst. Of course Mathilde can't teach it because she doesn't know it, but she could probably get Eike a scroll.
 
That becomes a three birds with one stone situation
1. Help my apprentice
2. Teach my apprentice (not the same lesson Regimand wanted Mathilde to learn :V)
3. Catch an Apparition

I think she would have to make a proper Ulgu miscast to summon an apparition and she is still really far from being able to manage that. Also we cannot bind any apparitions that are attracted to Ulgu since they would eat the chains

Sounds is nice, but if you want the ability to signal for help wouldn't Marsh Lights be more useful than Glowing Light?
Maybe we can learn all three, I don't know how many petty magics we can fit into a single action - Mathilde apparently learned all petty magics pretty early. We should probably wait for that kind of thing to become clearer before we make plans.

Also, is MAPP petty magic? In the update it was introduced it was said that an apprentice can cast it, so it's probably lesser magic at worst. Of course Mathilde can't teach it because she doesn't know it, but she could probably get Eike a scroll.

MMap is lesser, technically apprentice grade, but not for a while yet for Eike.
 
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I think she would have to make a proper Ulgu miscast to summon an apparition and she is still really far from being able to manage that. Also we cannot bind any apparitions that are attracted to Ulgu since they would eat the chains
Mathilde managed it at magic 2 (years before game start when we had magic 3)
Eike should be magic 1.
Shouldn't be too far off.

And while she can't bind one of the ulgu apparitions, she should be able to fight one or trap one.
 
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