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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Tomcost said:
I know. It is just that to complete, for example, the eight winds of magic that we are lacking, the method would take 2 turns and not be efficient at all.
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I'm inclined to go the slow and steady way with this. So that we may focus on that, we could also use our Great Deed with the Empire to copy the University of Nuln's books and cover a bunch of Imperial stuff via that, and feel less tempted to get Barak Varr or Backfill books.

Maaaaybe we could get an equivalent Great Deed with the Colleges and get a bunch of magic books that way, but honestly, such a boon would be better spent on either a Seviroscope or on how the Jades and Ambers do their own presumably-Apparition-bound spells.
 
Parabola said:
I'm inclined to go the slow and steady way with this. So that we may focus on that, we could also use our Great Deed with the Empire to copy the University of Nuln's books and cover a bunch of Imperial stuff via that, and feel less tempted to get Barak Varr or Backfill books.

Maaaaybe we could get an equivalent Great Deed with the Colleges and get a bunch of magic books that way, but honestly, such a boon would be better spent on either a Seviroscope or on how the Jades and Ambers do their own presumably-Apparition-bound spells.
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Hmmm. We could use a great deed to copy the library, but couldn't we do it through a KAU actions instead?
 
Tomcost said:
Hmmm. We could use a great deed to copy the library, but couldn't we do it through a KAU actions instead?
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The Great Deed lets us copy an entire Library's corpus. A KAU action would involve negotiation, give and take, and will likely involve some arrangement that would be beneficial to both parties. Copying their corpus is entirely negative for them and only justified by something like the Emperor pulling strings, which is the Great Deed's effect.
 
Speaking of Great Deeds I'm starting to think we might want/need to use it to get either Haleatha or Hekarti (okay more realistically a more PR friendly face) officially sanctified depending on how the project progresses.

Related, I really really want to try ALL THE TRIBUTARIES next turn.

@Boney just to verify, the "tributaries" aren't considered big enough to trigger Tindomiel's "Right of First Refusal" clause right? And I'm sorry if it should be obvious, but is there a very clear dividing line between what's 'just' a tributary and what counts as a full on waystone? I thought the main thing was that full on Waystones were firmly on the leylines, but it seems like some of the tributaries use that too so right now to me the main difference is the amount of stray winds they channel. Is there a very obvious difference in magnitude?
 
A_Somebody said:
just to verify, the "tributaries" aren't considered big enough to trigger Tindomiel's "Right of First Refusal" clause right? And I'm sorry if it should be obvious, but is there a very clear dividing line between what's 'just' a tributary and what counts as a full on waystone? I thought the main thing was that full on Waystones were firmly on the leylines, but it seems like some of the tributaries use that too so right now to me the main difference is the amount of stray winds they channel. Is there a very obvious difference in magnitude?
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The difference is that Tributaries are handling Earthbound magic, whereas the Waystones handle Magic in its Eightfold form, the Winds. That's why tributaries are so much easier to make.
 
I think that we could try adapting the Belthani ritual to another paradigm and we might even be able to achieve a secular tributary.
 
A_Somebody said:
Related, I really really want to try ALL THE TRIBUTARIES next turn.
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We should keep in mind that they're rituals and that rituals can have terrible consequences if they're botched. Taking more rituals per action means more chances of that.

Boney said:
Tochter, to her very visible frustration, has had little progress adapting - or, in her words, updating - the ritual to something in the Jade Order's wheelhouse, and Zlata's work has been equally fruitless. But Cadaeth has what she feels is a very solid ritual for encouraging the forest itself to anchor a tributary stone, Aksel has very straightforwardly swapped out the Earth Mother for Halétha and is ready to give it a try, and Niedzwenka thinks she knows just the spirit to make power start flowing. That's certainly promising, but if there's anything you learned about rituals during your lessons at the Colleges, it's that you can never be entirely sure how well you've done at crafting one until you actually do it. And considering the potential repercussions a botched ritual can lead to, you'll have to carefully consider whether to go for a blunderbuss approach and approve all of them, or try to decide which of them is the most promising.

[New action unlocked: attempt to create a tributary (select one or multiple: Dreaming Wood tributary, Haléthan tributary, Bereginya tributary)]
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Personally, I'd say at most two rituals per action, and using the Gambler Coin.
 
Parabola said:
We should keep in mind that they're rituals and that rituals can have terrible consequences if they're botched. Taking more rituals per action means more chances of that.
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Whether that is the case or not, most of the tributaries can only be set up by one person who wouldn't be able to help the others anyway. Cadaeth is setting a rock up in her forest and doing nature stuff, Niedzwenka is using Spirits and Aksel is dedicating his to his Goddess. There is a limit to how much we can get involved in any of these. Cadaeth would naturally be nervous about other people messing with her forest, Niedzwenka's expertise is unmatched and I'm not sure Haletha is super keen with anyone but Aksel and maybe Mathilde being involved in a religous ritual dedicated to her.
 
Codex said:
The difference is that Tributaries are handling Earthbound magic, whereas the Waystones handle Magic in its Eightfold form, the Winds. That's why tributaries are so much easier to make.
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Oh right and there was the Boney post that Magic naturally (or as natural as the Aethyr gets) comes out in 8 wind form, and eventually might lose its wind nature to become Eartbbound magic. And this Earthbound is used by non-Teclisian in ways and in degrees/magnitude the Teclisian framework says should be impossible.

So the tributaries focus on channeling this specific 'laundered' energy and are needed to reduce ambient magic levels since even Earthbound might cause dhar/demons if it accumulates and/or stuff can only be saturated with so much Earthbound magic at a time so removing it leaves metaphysical RAM for more winds to get laundered into relatively more benign Earthbound magical energy.

And laying it out like this wow yeah obviously Tindomiel wouldn't really want to touch these with a ten-foot pole. Or at least wouldn't care as much. We have WoB that Hekarti is all about the 8 Winds (+Dhar but sshhh), casting is both an art and act of courtship, so them mucking with non-wind Earthbound magic is probably some equivalent of cheating. Which seems like a bad idea.

So I think I got it hut uh wonderful Lady Loremaster, have I been an idiot who missed something (like the whole tributaries are for Earthbound thing in the first place?)
 
A_Somebody said:
So I think I got it hut uh wonderful Lady Loremaster, have I been an idiot who missed something (like the whole tributaries are for Earthbound thing in the first place?)
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You're fine. I don't think you missed anything. Only thing I would add is that Earthbound energy is often found in objects, as almost everything will naturally absorb the Winds. It's almost like Earthbound Magic is Wind residue. It doesn't retain an identity and just naturally seeps into anything nearby, just settling in there.
 
Codex said:
You're fine. I don't think you missed anything. Only thing I would add is that Earthbound energy is often found in objects, as almost everything will naturally absorb the Winds. It's almost like Earthbound Magic is Wind residue. It doesn't retain an identity and just naturally seeps into anything nearby, just settling in there.
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Right! But then again, we know materials can be aligned with winds specifically. As in they specifically absorb it. I reread the parts of how our towers were made, and there were bits about how forged metal accumulates Chamon unless you have runesmiths/apprentices there to chase it away, granite is Aquishy aligned, limestone Shyish due to fossils, etc etc. So is it a case where they absorb the specific wind and eventually turn it into Earthbound if nothing happens?

But then again, I had the impression these, or at least some materials tend to "keep" a certain wind. As in I'm not sure how useful our Ulgu/Tower of Dusk and Dawn would be if the special tree wood (the Araby tree that only blooms at dusk) would eventually no longer posses Ulgu but undifferentiated Earthbound magic. Hrrrrmm..

(Also thanks for responding. I think I find it more natural to post when it seems like a convo or there's something to butt into)
 
Boney said:
Thanks to a whistleblower in a tech startup, we know that at least one company was looking at it as a method to disrupt and innovate satellite ion engines in 2018.
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TBF, an ion engine won't be used till you are in a stable orbit and it's cheaper than noble gases, so the idea is not that crazy. Ofc it becomes the same nogo as nuclear engines once you consider the percentage of rockets that blow up before they reach LEO (and microsats that get deorbited with fuel in them), and the requirement of having a fuel tank that would survive that kills any potential gains.
At least a nogo till we have an industry base outside of earth atmosphere.
 
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Boney said:
On the topic of achieving High Magic, the entire thought process behind it is one that inherently buys into the Elven narrative of High Magic being the pinnacle of spellcasting and single-Wind magic being inherently lesser. There might be a way for College Wizards to technically achieve an extremely minor act of High Magic with the dedication of enough years of effort from the greatest minds in the Empire, but that's time that could be dedicated to literally anything else. It's like a velociraptor that's been told that fishing is the highest form of hunting and they're trying to figure out a way to make a fishing pole work with their little dinosaur talons, convinced that if one day they manage to hook and land a minnow they'll finally be worthy of recognition as a mighty hunter.

yeah yeah Jurassic Park got it wrong I know, pick your favourite dromaeosaurid
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Gonna drop a take here, but the Elves are right at least a bit in that a High Magic user can be useful in any situation that a single Wind Spellcaster is since they by their nature will know all the Winds. Like obviously, they won't necessarily know, depending on how deep into the weeds of the single lore they need to go, but they can be useful in that situation. Whereas If you really need something lit on purely magic fire, there's not much a Jade Wizard can really do. So for Elves, who deeply favor versatility, of course that's a thing they're going to think and then that thought morphs into dogma, losing any nuance.

This is, of course, orthogonal to the question of whether or not it is worth trying to develop High Magic as a human (no, not really, unless you discover a freak of nature who's just built different or a friendly god of magic or something). Better to leverage the inability to wield all Winds into a deeper understanding of one, if that's what you gotta do.

Just me having a think for reasons.
 
Voikirium said:
Gonna drop a take here, but the Elves are right at least a bit in that a High Magic user can be useful in any situation that a single Wind Spellcaster is since they by their nature will know all the Winds. Like obviously, they won't necessarily know, depending on how deep into the weeds of the single lore they need to go, but they can be useful in that situation. Whereas If you really need something lit on purely magic fire, there's not much a Jade Wizard can really do. So for Elves, who deeply favor versatility, of course that's a thing they're going to think and then that thought morphs into dogma, losing any nuance.

This is, of course, orthogonal to the question of whether or not it is worth trying to develop High Magic as a human (no, not really, unless you discover a freak of nature who's just built different or a friendly god of magic or something). Better to leverage the inability to wield all Winds into a deeper understanding of one, if that's what you gotta do.

Just me having a think for reasons.
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Exploration in depth has its own power to exploration in breadth. Sure, you sacrifice versatility, and versatility is useful.

But Human magisters pull off things that High Mages can't, by virtue of being so willing to dive into a single wind that they'll twist their soul to go that little bit deeper, get that one insight needed. And those insights often aren't transferable, given the idiosyncratic nature of the wizard/magic relationship, so those feats may *never* be replicated by High Mages.
 
Even the Elves themselves have plenty of specialists anyways, so even among the people who can learn high magic the versatility of high magic is not the be all end all.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Don't forget that spells like Rite of Way are almost impossible under the elven paradigm, but that didn't stop Mathilde from bullshitting it into existence.
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That is true but it also means that the elven paradigm is also capable of things which are simply not possible for any college to do. Such as the possible healing of Johann's eyes for example as shown below.

Horium said:
Hm, perhaps Quash healing spell would work.
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Boney said:
Not normally. It seems theoretically possible that someone very skilled and very careful might be able to weave the lingering Chamon into a High Magic healing spell.
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Mopman43 said:
To be fair, just because Mathilde couldn't get the math to work doesn't mean an Elf couldn't have.

(Actually, wasn't that about enchanting the robes, not RoW?)
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Hence why I specified "almost". I'm sure someone skilled enough could replicate RoW. Although now that I think of it, masteries would probably be a better example. I don't believe elven magical traditions—be they High Magic or something more specialised like mist magic—can obtain masteries, but human traditions can.
 
Speaking of Rite of Way, I'd like it very much if we could attempt to codify it some point in the near future turns. We get CF for spell creation, which would help the Orbs flex along, and it also has some potential in dealing with the Laurelorn-Middenland trade route through the swamp.
 
ReImagined said:
Speaking of Rite of Way, I'd like it very much if we could attempt to codify it some point in the near future turns. We get CF for spell creation, which would help the Orbs flex along, and it also has some potential in dealing with the Laurelorn-Middenland trade route through the swamp.
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Its a battle magic level spell so i doubt it's going to be used for that. And the colleges might have a problem with us just handing out our spell list to a not allied nation.
 
Tobtorp said:
Its a battle magic level spell so i doubt it's going to be used for that. And the colleges might have a problem with us just handing out our spell list to a not allied nation.
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Too lazy to grab all the quotes directly, but there was some discussion on the idea around page 11942, either through casters or through infrastructure.

I wouldn't worry too much about military secrets given the nature of the Waystone Project, which outweighs pretty much anything we'd be giving. Both Dragomas and Algard support the Project, and it's not hard to justify improving relations. If you're concerned about the Articles, there's plenty of workarounds. Off the top of my head, one solution would involve the official client being Middenland, and this would all be filed under the Grey Order's penchant for diplomacy to those not involved.
 
ReImagined said:
Too lazy to grab all the quotes directly, but there was some discussion on the idea around page 11942, either through casters or through infrastructure.

I wouldn't worry too much about military secrets given the nature of the Waystone Project, which outweighs pretty much anything we'd be giving. Both Dragomas and Algard support the Project, and it's not hard to justify improving relations. If you're concerned about the Articles, there's plenty of workarounds. Off the top of my head, one solution would involve the official client being Middenland, and this would all be filed under the Grey Order's penchant for diplomacy to those not involved.
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Generally my thinking is that a) enchanting battle magic is hard. B) having a caster continuously on hand that can cast BM is a waste of that caster.

As for the waystone project being some sort of secret sharing, that the hope but not yet the reality. The elf's don't even give us full access to the library of mourning. The only big secret that has shown up is that the ice witches made their own loop and we assumed that already.
 
A_Somebody said:
@Boney just to verify, the "tributaries" aren't considered big enough to trigger Tindomiel's "Right of First Refusal" clause right? And I'm sorry if it should be obvious, but is there a very clear dividing line between what's 'just' a tributary and what counts as a full on waystone? I thought the main thing was that full on Waystones were firmly on the leylines, but it seems like some of the tributaries use that too so right now to me the main difference is the amount of stray winds they channel. Is there a very obvious difference in magnitude?
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Apart from the Wind/Earthbound distinction already mentioned, another stark dividing line is that tributaries are entirely passive, giving Winds a path of least resistance that directs them to the rest of the network, while the Waystones actively absorb, store, package, and send off the Winds whether they like it or not. The Tindomiel deal only refers to Waystones.
 
ReImagined said:
Too lazy to grab all the quotes directly, but there was some discussion on the idea around page 11942, either through casters or through infrastructure.
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If you can get it to a giant enchantment, then maybe, but I don't believe it's viable to run a trade route exclusively through Battle Magic casters.

Even beyond the risk to the caster from continuously casting Battle Magic (and for the sake of profit and trade rather than dealing mass-death to the enemies of the Empire), one bit of wisdom Abelhelm advised on is to never create a system that relies on always having Wizards if you want it to be useful.
 
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