- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I see, thank you!
Nevermind what I said about the book acquisition, then.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Nevermind what I said about the book acquisition, then.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The Changeling is too strong. If you implement him, you have to make some sort of justification for why he wouldn't just pretend to be the Emperor and completely destroy the Old World. The whole "fooling gods" thing is probably one of the dumbest things they did with him. As a character, his narrative power is way too goddamn high for any stakes to be had if he doesn't have a weakness.
The problem is that that we don't know what we'd be missing out on compared to having someone speak both a spellcasting/enchanting arcane language and arcane Khazalid.
There are probably literally no specialists in the world (bar possibly the Chaos Dwarf sorcerer-prophets), that have that particular specialism. Thorek most certainly can't. He doesn't have a soul that can channel the Winds so he certainly can't do anything that requires someone having both skills, as the Archmages who worked with Runelords very likely could.
Probably literally the only person that is a member of the order factions that will be able to be a specialist at this for the next few hundred years is Mathilde.
Easy. The Emperor isn't an absolute ruler. He operates as first amongst equals in a system full of checks and balances that mean that any one person being corrupted isn't a catastrophe. That's why you have an electoral system with multiple veto points, so lots of people have lots of incentives to scrutinise and block anything that might be problematic.
Same with why the Fey Enchantress can depose the King of Bretonnia despite them being a Grail Knight who should inherently follow the Lady's will.
Last edited:
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, what do you do when the Changling mimics the apparenence of the Fey Enchantress and deposes a King to get his own guy on the throne? The Changling can allready fool Gods, so it might take the Lady a hot second before she even realizes she need to react, and by that time, you've allready got a new absolutle king on the throne.
Even if the proper Fey Enhantress enter the arena at that point, they might be without divine support because of the fact she would be genuinly unsure who was the actual Enhantress and Who's the Changling, leading to damage to Bretonia at the very minimum, at worst an Errand War at the Changling's choosing
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Is it plausible that the Changeling can only fool gods up to a certain level of scrutiny, and can't supplant a figure as heavily-scrutinised as the Emperor is at certain times?
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
I think a cool weakness for them would be the exact same as their strength.
They imitate their target perfectly.
Every last detail, every memory, even their soul… except now they are just the person they are imitating, with a few extra bits concealed among the rest.
The reason they aren't always flattening civilizations and collapsing the old world is because they get to sucked up into the role, and they end up just living the life of the replaced person instead, while whatever parts remain try to steer and nudge into whatever plans they originally had.
That's why their most impressive workings are with daemons and similar as targets, because those are far less likely to object to just doing whatever suits them at the time, while someone with a stable life, and goals, and people they care about will keep smacking down that annoying prickling to do list of evil plots because come on if I do that than everything I currently like about my life is toast.
And since they are Tzeench aligned, instead of picking targets where any destabilization would be disasterous, they instead go for over complicated wheels within wheels plans that inevitably fall apart when, no, I can't go write dark runes on the black cylinder in the college cellar, I need to feed the baby.
Almost certainly not whats actually going on, but would be an interesting character concept.
The Lady knows that she didn't tell the 'Fey Enchantress to do that, and the Changeling is in a world of hurt.
Quite possibly the atemporal Lady would know that there isn't a possible future where she would tell the Fey Enchantress to do so unless the Changeling is involved, in which case the Changeling is doubly screwed, as the Lady would know of the possible futures where the Changeling would take such a risk, and prepare a trap.
Messing with people under the direct orders of their gods would be dangerous for the Changeling.
He can walk into the throne room wearing the Fey Enchantress' shape to depose the King to find the Green Knight, half a dozen Grail Knights and an equal number of Prophetesses waiting with a tailored ritual to banish him for a long time.
Last edited:
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I think the closest thing to a weakness I've seen given to the Changeling is that they really can't help engaging in petty pranks and vandalism.
So even if they're supposed to just perfectly mimic their target and wait for the right moment to ruin everything, they can't help leaving a string of obvious mishaps wherever they go.
So even if they're supposed to just perfectly mimic their target and wait for the right moment to ruin everything, they can't help leaving a string of obvious mishaps wherever they go.
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Right, so like, The changling has cannoically gone into the literal doman of the Chaos God's diguised as their deamons and gotten away with messing around with them. Supposely cut the hair of Slanneh itself and ran away giggling, that's the degree upon which it can trick God's. It could go into the very heart of their power, and they didn't notice before it was too late.
And the Chaos God's themself certainly wouldn't display any sense of atemporal power where they could see into the future, since if they did they would have most certainlly retaliated quite forcefully against the Changling for daring to defy them, in the heart of their power. In which case i'm left to wonder how the Lady haven't united the entire world under her banner, if she's the solo God with the capabiltiy to see into the future like that, in cases where even the Chaos God's themself weren't powerfull enough.
In almost every instance, including this very quest, the Chaos's God's are the strongest, but your argument rest on the idea that the Lady has the ability to see into the future, be unaffected by the stream of time, by every instance that should mean there would be no way, Mousillon should fall, you'd have several failed Erran war's because the Lady would be able to see this coming in time, and diveret them for something else.
Even if you discount the possibility that the Lady could see into the future like that, it implies a sense of omniprescent that no other God's seem to quite have, since she would have to instantly discover that the Changling is disguised as the Fey Enchantress(Something it had gotten away with doing with all other God's, including the Al-Ulric highest of Ulric's servant if you take end-time into account). Then get into contact with every other possible party, get them to the castle in time, in order to stop it.
And even if she did manage to get the Green Knight and several Grail knights over there in time, She wouldn't know who is the real fey enchantress, since the Changling can trick even God's. They'd be stuck very much in a scenario of "i am the real one", and with no functional way of finding out.
None of the God's we have seen in the quests seem to have that sort of implied omnipresence and awarness, stuff like Nagash, Three Emperor's era, Chaos dwarfs would be radically different since the God's would know exactly when and where there is trouble brewing. Britania is just one example on how Changling could easily do something like that.
It could also just go "Heyo, it's your boy, the elector count of Nordland, and i've come to order my State troops to invade Laurelon, don't worry i got full permision, and this is totally within my rights as an elector count to do", Grombrindal "Kragg, you have dishonored every single one of your ancestor by helping that Umgi with your runes and sloppy craftsmanship" Miao Ying, "Open the Gates, We are letting out an party to cleanse the deamon lands, opps an enemy party was ready to just walk in"
If the only possible counter to the changling is to be an atemporal God who can see into the future, then you can surely see why the Changling might be what we could lightly call "gamebreaking and OP". From an story point, it only seems to not cause massive chaos and paranoia is because it's too busy causing mischief, and the fact GW isn't willing to let this creature into most stories due to it's inherent power
The Changeling is Tzeentchian propoganda meant to inspire its daemons to such sterling levels of conspiracy.
The Changeling is a trickster and a prankster, and it gets bored easily. It's not running 400IQ plots, its just shit stirring for the lolz.
Also, Tzeentch specifically capped its power so it can only imitate up to the level of a Greater Demon ("only"), so no mimicking the Gods.
Also I just learned that one of it's more notable achievements is shaving off Slaanesh's hair in their sleep, and then weaving it into a cloak that was then gifted to Egrimm. So, uh, if Egrimm gets a fancy new cloak, then we should probably look into that.
Also, Tzeentch specifically capped its power so it can only imitate up to the level of a Greater Demon ("only"), so no mimicking the Gods.
Also I just learned that one of it's more notable achievements is shaving off Slaanesh's hair in their sleep, and then weaving it into a cloak that was then gifted to Egrimm. So, uh, if Egrimm gets a fancy new cloak, then we should probably look into that.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I think my favorite prank is welding the doors of Khorne's keep shut while he was out, so he had to break his own entrance to get back in.
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Heck, even if you don't count the sort of political trouble the Changling can get up it, it can also perfectly mimic the skills of whoever it's transformed into. Like, if could become Tyrion and have all of his swordskills.
So there is absolutly nothing stopping the changling from going into Altdorf and going, "Hello, i am Kroak in his prime now, wanna hear about this neat spell called Deliverance", Or Malecith, Cathay dragon's etc. Even if it stopped after a few miniutes to sneak away, it could cause absoute chaos in several cities in extremly short amount of time
And then easily get away by transforming into a Bird, and since it's so good at disguse even God's can't find it, they wouldn't be able to track him down, if he just goes around casting magical nukes on cities and then running away
If the Changling was seriously put on the task of killing Mathilda, it could just mimic Caldor Dragontamer, and come crashing down straight upon us. I don't think we would survive someone with all the skills and power of Caldor Dragontamer
So there is absolutly nothing stopping the changling from going into Altdorf and going, "Hello, i am Kroak in his prime now, wanna hear about this neat spell called Deliverance", Or Malecith, Cathay dragon's etc. Even if it stopped after a few miniutes to sneak away, it could cause absoute chaos in several cities in extremly short amount of time
And then easily get away by transforming into a Bird, and since it's so good at disguse even God's can't find it, they wouldn't be able to track him down, if he just goes around casting magical nukes on cities and then running away
If the Changling was seriously put on the task of killing Mathilda, it could just mimic Caldor Dragontamer, and come crashing down straight upon us. I don't think we would survive someone with all the skills and power of Caldor Dragontamer
Last edited:
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
At least if we're going by it's tabletop rules, it needs to be in physical contact with it's target to mimic it.
(also, still unclear if it can mimic the target's ability to cast magic)
- Location
- Earth
That, and Old Ones for their pre-Waystone uses.
According to it's 7th edition rules (because that's the first book I got my hands on), it's not even a hero tier character—it's an unique champion upgrade for a unit of horrors, and it costs 60pts (a normal pink horror costs 12pts). It can also only copy the weapon skill, strength, toughness, initiative and/or attacks with a model it is in base contact with. Its unmodified statline isn't that different from a human infantryman.
Last edited:
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
It's a hero in 8th edition. Base stats are still crap.
Ability works the same, though.
I find it very funny that the Changeling- the Changeling- can't hide in a unit.
- Location
- Earth
And yet if I remember correctly, both Night Goblin Fanatics and Eshin Assassins can hide in a unit.
Edit: I should specify its units you control. At least, I think that's the case for the Eshin. Definitely for the fanatic. Sorry, I'm trying to remember rules for a game I haven't played in over a decade.
Last edited:
I like that take. It fits Tzeetch's themes.
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, on the book acquisition again...
I want to do the Colleges of Magic option, but I also want to do a Barak Varr acquisition very soon and get all those Metallurgy books(plus two other topics). And now I'm wondering which is actually the best order to do them in, because while I was initially prioritizing the College acquisition, I now worry whether not having those Metallurgy books could make choosing our WEB-MAT waystone research options more awkward next turn.
If we take Aethyr, Power Stones, Apparitions, and Wild Magic for book acquisitions this turn, what benefit will we gain from that this upcoming turn? We'll probably have a +3 to any Power Stone stuff we do, like lessons on how to make them. That's decent, but I'm not sure we strictly need to do that on t39. The other three, while likely important, aren't ones I think will be relevant on t39(considering many of us seem to want to wait with apparitions until after we've got more of our current projects out of the way).
In comparison, having the Metallurgy books seems like it might be a lot more relevant on t39, because I suspect we want to have those books before we throw Max at the Waystone Gold.
Thoughts?
EDIT: I suppose the main question is "do you think we'll have plenty to do with the Waystone Project and WEB-MAT even if we don't get into Waystone Gold right away". If the answer to that question is yes, then the Metallurgy books aren't a big priority for this turn.
I want to do the Colleges of Magic option, but I also want to do a Barak Varr acquisition very soon and get all those Metallurgy books(plus two other topics). And now I'm wondering which is actually the best order to do them in, because while I was initially prioritizing the College acquisition, I now worry whether not having those Metallurgy books could make choosing our WEB-MAT waystone research options more awkward next turn.
If we take Aethyr, Power Stones, Apparitions, and Wild Magic for book acquisitions this turn, what benefit will we gain from that this upcoming turn? We'll probably have a +3 to any Power Stone stuff we do, like lessons on how to make them. That's decent, but I'm not sure we strictly need to do that on t39. The other three, while likely important, aren't ones I think will be relevant on t39(considering many of us seem to want to wait with apparitions until after we've got more of our current projects out of the way).
In comparison, having the Metallurgy books seems like it might be a lot more relevant on t39, because I suspect we want to have those books before we throw Max at the Waystone Gold.
Thoughts?
EDIT: I suppose the main question is "do you think we'll have plenty to do with the Waystone Project and WEB-MAT even if we don't get into Waystone Gold right away". If the answer to that question is yes, then the Metallurgy books aren't a big priority for this turn.
Last edited:
- Location
- Greece
Hmmm... aren't all those guys technically, while not gods, better than greater Daemons? I mean, maybe not Cathay's dragons, but both Malekith and Kroak are above that level, Kroak by a big margin.
Maybe that was also the real reason that it couldn't mimic Karl Franz... they do not have enough juice to mimic someone who can 1v1 a Greater Demon and win...
(Disclaimer: I am not very well versed in WH lore and may be wrong about Karl Franz being able to 1v1 a Greater Demon)
Last edited:
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, reason given was there was something divine about Karl Franz and how the Changling couldn't mimic that...Which would been fine except he'd just spend several month disguised as the leader of Ulric's priest gang, so that's just end time being end time.
I dunno, The plotter feared Sigmar so maybe Sigmar have anti-Weaver of powers that somehow disallow the Changling from transforming, maybe Karl Franz is secretly a divine Cathay Ulgu dragon, who knows
End times doesn't make much sense at the best of times
Last edited:
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
This isn't a bad thought -- I personally think we'll have plenty to do with the Waystone Project that isn't Waystone Gold, but we don't know what until we see the actions. What other two topics would you want from them? I think Athel Loren (confirmed by Boney to be a mundane topic and not a Collegiate topic) might be a reasonable choice, based on what we've learned from Lay the Foundations. If you agree, what would be a third topic relevant to either Waystones or Mathilde's personal work?
I still don't know I prefer this to the Colleges four topics (Aethyr seems potentially useful, for instance), but I'm definitely willing to kick ideas around to draw up a second [LIBRARY] plan. "Give the thread the best possible versions of the options and let them vote about it" is very strongly my preference over "try to shut down alternate plans before they've even been properly brainstormed."