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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Glau said:
And this means that scraps of pre-elven traditions that added onto the origin network are somehow more likely to have variable information than an unbroken tradition from prior to the finding of the Tower of Hoeth?
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The Grey Lords are also an unbroken tradition from before the White Tower. Imo that house doesn't bring much more to the Foundations.

Glau said:
It feels a lot like people are in the mindset where they think we will succeed even if we turn this down. I am much more doubtful.
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I'm convinced we would have enough people to succeed at the foundations without them. The arguments why were made again and again on this thread and I'm too lazy to go looking for them.

The Colleges are also more important than the house because it's likely they'll have scraps of knowledge about how to make waystones without elves. That's a very big deal, especially because having waystones that humans can participate in the construction of would be very good.

Édit: the grey lords' paradigm is also probably much closer to the house than any of the humans (even Colleges), and so the house is more redundant if not superfluous.
 
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Glau said:
We have literally no idea why the grey lords consider themselves separate from the other elven magic users. Until we know this, we don't have any real guesses as to what the grey lords don't know that this house might.
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The Grey Lords are twelve people living in a magical pocket dimension. I think that says a lot about them in comparison to standard mage traditions.

One, they're really old. Two, they're really powerful. Three, they're super eccentric and were kicked out of Ulthuan for their experiments. Four, they're super disconnected from the outside world but likely have a great level of knowledge on super esoteric things regarding whatever they're researching. Five, we know they're the ones fixing up and supplying equipment to Tor Lithanel, that they bound the Spirits in Laurelorn, that they made the potions which turned Elven blood poisonous, and that at least Hatalath is capable of animating constructs and some form of spatial manipulation, even if only within magical forests.

There's still a lot to find out, but that's what we have.
 
You know, one perspective of the waystone project is as a show of force. Mathilde has very quickly gathered a diverse team of powerful experts on very short notice—three Lords Magister, three Magisters, a senior Hag Witch, a Maiden of the Ice Court, and a Runelord. That's an intimidating array of skills and abilities, and in any other context would be considered a military force. There's a very subtle threat there—"we're not pushovers, and we push back hard, so you might as well as join us for your own good."

I mean, just a decade ago there was a threat of war between Laurelorn and the Empire, and that could come back if negotiations failed. Mathilde has put together an effective taster of the sorts of people the Eonir would have to fight if that war did come to pass, and it could make them think twice about messing with us—especially since this isn't our full power. Only three colleges out of eight are present, and none of the wizards involved are battle wizards.
 
A thought: there's no way the project is staying hidden forever. Remember, if we succeed then this is going to be a major infrastructure project all across the Old World. The "let's build a magic tower" chapters showed that this sort of thing requires lots of weird imports and an actual workforce, not just two wizards sitting in a ditch somewhere. And the "let's examine a waystone" chapter showed us that even being able to semi-safely work in the right spot will often require a military escort, which isn't exactly inconspicuous either.

And if we get that far, then this will definitely be noticed by surrounding institutions, be a big deal, etc. Maybe it won't be perceived as "the biggest thing ever" (investment in boring, foundational infrastructure never is unless there's a "5G towards are mind-control"-type scare), but people will know and will poke at it.

In such a situation, absolute secrecy is a pipe dream. Instead, what we want is plausible deniability and political weight. That's the point of being "less obvious": people won't notice offhand, and when it is noticed raising a stink will be a stupid decision for the institution in question.
 
TreP said:
Literally anyone who wants Waystone dedicated to their own God. For example, I can easily see Ice Witches of Kislev turning down Elves for the Widow dedicated Waystone.
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And then those particular Ice Witches get asked some hard questions about why they want Chaos to win and the Tsarevich finds a new set of more politically reliable ones.
 
Alratan said:
And then those particular Ice Witches get asked some hard questions about why they want Chaos to win and the Tsarevich finds a new set of more politically reliable ones.
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I doubt that Tsarevich will believe Elves over Witches. Especially considering that said Ice Witches had a representative for the whole Project, therefore know everything we know about Waystone creation.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
In such a situation, absolute secrecy is a pipe dream. Instead, what we want is plausible deniability and political weight. That's the point of being "less obvious": people won't notice offhand, and when it is noticed raising a stink will be a stupid decision for the institution in question.
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That, and Kairos Fateweaver already knows all the possible outcomes of the Project. It's not only the nations and organisations of the world that will be watching…
 
TreP said:
I doubt that Tsarevich will believe Elves over Witches. Especially consideting that said Ice Witches had a representative for the whole Project, therefore know everything we know about Waystone creation.
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Boris said this:
Boney said:
"And everyone comes running with promises. Well, here is Kislev's promise. You say there might be ways to push back Dewastacja? Restore Praag? Push back Troll Country? I say: to make this happen, all of Kislev will move mountains. You need gold? Kislev has gold. You need Ice Witch? They want make friends with me after father ignores them, they want me to take Ice Witch wife, I can make them cooperate. The Hag Witches? The kossars know they are mine, you can have Hag Witches. Ursun knows me, His priests will cooperate. If Elves in Erengrad want to stay in Erengrad, they must help. There is nothing I would not make happen if it means more Kislev and less Za. Do you understand?" You nod. "Good. I have gone to the returned Dwarves, spoken to them of you. You tore them from the grip of the Za after all had given up on them. After they had given up on them. Do the same for Kislev, and there would be no reward too great."
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If we ever reach the point where we can make more Waystones, and we only need to pay up if we actually manage it, and we prove it can push back the Za as Boris wants it? He will move mountains to see it done. There is nothing Boris won't do for the good of his country.
 
Alratan said:
And then those particular Ice Witches get asked some hard questions about why they want Chaos to win and the Tsarevich finds a new set of more politically reliable ones.
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To me that makes it seem like the reason Hekarti is being favoured over any other dedication or non-compatible paradigm, is because they asked first, and if anyone disagrees with that it's because they want chaos to win. This is a choice we seem to be making right now, and to me it seems like one we don't actually have to make.
 
I remember when people used to think making new Waystones was a pipe dream, the best case scenario. I was one of those people, and honestly, I still am. It's baffling to me that we're arguing so much about a scenario we considered near impossible just a while ago.
 
Codex said:
I remember when people used to think making new Waystones was a pipe dream, the best case scenario. I was one of those people, and honestly, I still am. It's baffling to me that we're arguing so much about a scenario we considered near impossible just a while ago.
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It's because the important magical elf guy thinks it's so likely to happen that he's prepared to work for free if the project fails.
 
Codex said:
I remember when people used to think making new Waystones was a pipe dream, the best case scenario. I was one of those people, and honestly, I still am. It's baffling to me that we're arguing so much about a scenario we considered near impossible just a while ago.
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I mean on the one hand yeah it's a moonshot, but on the other hand what we have here is starting to look a whole lot like the Apollo Project. We've gotten a lot of support and even some of the sources that seemed to be shots in the dark like the Hedgewise have proven to know surprisingly much on the subject.
 
Codex said:
I remember when people used to think making new Waystones was a pipe dream, the best case scenario. I was one of those people, and honestly, I still am. It's baffling to me that we're arguing so much about a scenario we considered near impossible just a while ago.
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That's because we have nothing to argue in case we are not successful. If we fail, we fail. No hard decisions or strings attached that we can see at this point.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
It's because the important magical elf guy thinks it's so likely to happen that he's prepared to work for free if the project fails.
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Which is a bit weird to me, because this guy of all people should know how hard this is. It's been thousands of years since a new Waystone was erected! The knowledge is lost! He barely knows the woman asking him to join the project, who has not shown any results so far by the way! She managed to get a bunch of people gathered up, an impressive collection, based on promises, literally building on a shadow, and this guy is intending to work for free unless it's successful!

Either he's supremely, immensely arrogant, desperate, or there's something weird here. I refuse to believe he would have this much faith over nothing.
 
Codex said:
Which is a bit weird to me, because this guy of all people should know how hard this is. It's been thousands of years since a new Waystone was erected! The knowledge is lost! He barely knows the woman asking him to join the project, who has not shown any results so far by the way! She managed to get a bunch of people gathered up, an impressive collection, based on promises, literally building on a shadow, and this guy is intending to work for free unless it's successful!

Either he's supremely, immensely arrogant, desperate, or there's something weird here. I refuse to believe he would have this much faith over nothing.
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Maybe the Father activated twice?
 
Codex said:
Which is a bit weird to me, because this guy of all people should know how hard this is. It's been thousands of years since a new Waystone was erected! The knowledge is lost! He barely knows the woman asking him to join the project, who has not shown any results so far by the way! She managed to get a bunch of people gathered up, an impressive collection, based on promises, literally building on a shadow, and this guy is intending to work for free unless it's successful!

Either he's supremely, immensely arrogant, desperate, or there's something weird here. I refuse to believe he would have this much faith over nothing.
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I think what would be supremely arrogant in a human is only normal arrogant on an elf and a little arrogant on an elf lord. :V
 
Tobtorp said:
Why do you think it's unbroken? If they could build waystones they wouldn't need us. Like literally with your train of thought why did they ask us?
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Because having 80% of the picture doesn't actually let you build waystones any more than having 5% of the picture does. And I think it is unbroken because the house has survived sauce the founding.

K von Carstein said:
convinced we would have enough people to succeed at the foundations without them
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We've got a lot of "different" people all drawing from the same, small, well of knowledge. I am less impressed by numbers when I expect that the amount of novel knowledge in each addition member is small.

So yeah. I dislike human arrogance here. Ironic, huh?

Codex said:
There's still a lot to find out, but that's what we have.
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But this is only one side of the equation. We don't know if the house also has this knowledge, and what they have instead if not.

TreP said:
Literally anyone who wants Waystone dedicated to their own God. For example, I can easily see Ice Witches of Kislev turning down Elves for the Widow dedicated Waystone.
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So... If the options are waystones with an elf goddess or no waystones, you think the "no waystones" crew is going to win?

There isn't a second option for getting new waystones. It's gonna be out way out the high way.
 
Codex said:
Either he's supremely, immensely arrogant, desperate, or there's something weird here. I refuse to believe he would have this much faith over nothing.
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There is an argument that he does think its not going to happen. so he is not going to have to pay up.

in that case, being part of the Project is the goal in of itself.

if thats the case: his goals could be:

A) looting the group for magical knowledge. (to be fair, that's kind of everyone's sub-goal.) Victory for this aganda is just being at the table with a notepad.

B) promoting Magical/religious (the same thing for this house/cult) interaction with the empire. The cult of Hekarti is the ones getting involved with the Colleges of magic, and so will be the ones to benefit in influence and connections (for whatever goal) before anyone else.

C) Connections: success or failure, this is one of the broadness collections of magic traditions... ever? at least without a war involved. if you were an isolated magic cult finally allowed to see what's up with the world, the waystone project is a dam good way to start networking.

D) some/all of the above/ other stuff.

At this point, there are reasons to just want to be at that table if your life is all about being horny for the magic, as long as you don't have to give up anything or have other stuff to do. (and this is an isolated cult, not the damsel, they very much might not have much to do.)
 
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Glau said:
Because having 80% of the picture doesn't actually let you build waystones any more than having 5% of the picture does. And I think it is unbroken because the house has survived sauce the founding.
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Ok then I ask again, if they had that much why don't they do it on their own. Or even better why wasn't it them who initiated the project? Yes their a magic house but that doesn't mean they have a complete copy of the library of hoeth. Or that they even still have someone surviving from the founding. Their a house in a colony and that probably means a minor house.

Your giving them way to much credit just on a name...
 
Tobtorp said:
Ok then I ask again, if they had that much why don't they do it on their own. Or even better why wasn't it them who initiated the project?
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Because they can't? Like I just said, it doesn't matter if you have 1% or 99%, you are still unable to construct waystones.

The person who knows 99% though, is obviously worth much more than people who know 1% to a project designed to get to 100%.

And they didn't initiate the project because they are a single house in the city. Generally for a sub-polity doing foreign policy on your own is a great way to get your hand slapped.

And there is no second option because literally everyone who will know how to do this will be coming out of our project.
 
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