Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
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Given that it is how the Lizardmen use magic and they are advanced beyond the dreams of the younger races, i think it is fair to say that paradigm is more than just in the head of the user... or if it is in the head of the user than those heads belong to planet-reshaping super-toads so the point is moot anyway.
Mopman43
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For Deep Magic, are you talking about the Lore the Vampire Coast uses in TW?
Meanwhile Teclis: Bloody AP Hell!!!!!
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Was thinking more of the old dwarven gronti and things? If that's just soulcake lore and not actual WHF I wouldn't be too suprised.
As far as the toads go- they were built to be tools with specific uses, in an environment prior to the winds.
Important note: IF there was magic in the world prior to the polar gates breaking and the winds appearing, then Teclesian theory is necessarily false.
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This feels like a misunderstanding.
Humans cannot learn High magic. Because it takes many centuries to learn and humans don't live that long.
Elves do not throw themselves into a single wind because an Arcane mark would mean they could never learn High Magic.
These are cultural differences that are caused by biological differences, not because magic behaves differently for different species.
Raiseth
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I…
I think this discussion can do without my meager contributions.
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So you're saying that they have different cultures and biology, and that they're different species, but somehow, the Aethyr which is the source of magic and shaped by belief and thought, behaves the same way when it comes to the both of them?
Do you realise how contradictory that is?
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I think he's saying that if a human could live for several thousand years he too could learn high magic... But they live for like 100 to 150 (for magicians apparently) and so need to ultra specialise...
I do not think you could say that, any more than the existence of the pre-Big Bang Singularity disproves Special Relativity. 'Teclisian theory' if you want to call the full lore and understanding of the elves after one admittedly brilliant mage makes no attempt to describe the world before the Fall of the Polar Gates only the world as it presently is.
As I mentioned before, I believe that Teclis didn't say that divine magic didn't exist or that it used the Winds of Magic. His claim was that divine magic was actually magical energy shaped as it was passed from the Aethyr through the priest rather than being a pure divine miracle independent of the priest. He's claiming that divine magic is magic, rather than denying it.
That's a very different thing. He doesn't talk about it as if it's something new or strange, just an understood phenomena. And given the elven view of how they're part of their gods and their gods are parts of them that live in the Aethyr, it makes complete sense for him to describe divine magic in this way.
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The biological difference is lifespan not that magic appears to behave differently.
I'm saying this can be explained without invoking the need for metaphysics to change in order to doso
Sure I can't rule out that it, but Occams Razor is that I don't have to, I just default to the simplest explanation that needs the fewest unproven assumptions. And that is, humans don't live long enough, elves do.
E: Just to make it very clear I was only critising the part of the post I quoted. I know Teclisian theory can't explain everything, such as the Elementalists, the Ice Magic of Kislev and even the Waagh. I'm saying specifically that the differences between the way the White Tower and the Colleges of Magic practice are not one of those holes in the theory.
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It seems there is confusion between two statements - "Teclisean theory is false" and "Teclisean theory does not explain something". The theory concerns Eight Winds and result of their intermingling - Dhar, most widespread and accessible forms of magical energy in the World as it is now. That there exists something not falling within it merely means that this phenomenon is not of Eight Winds by its nature, not that theory of Winds wrongly explains their work. The particular importance of this specific subcategory of magic is exactly in its accessibility - one does need neither faith and deep contact with God, Chaos or not, neither complex rituals of Hedgewise or other ancient mystery societies, neither ancient secrets of Ancestor Gods, neither unknown to all but few mysteries of leylines to use it - and when someone reaches to magic out of anger or desperation, it is the Winds he draws upon (if one's not drawing upon God, of course), and without proper education almost surely he will curdle them into Dhar, tainting oneself. That same accessibility allows power and quickness so important in combat, since Winds are everywhere.
On other side: we know for a fact that there was magic before collapse and building itself of Polar Gates and therefore before Winds. Geomantic web existed before collapse; and it seems to hold some sort of undifferentiated magical energy which Slann can use for their own special, non-Wind effects. In quest, dragons are definitely magical creatures, and they are independent of Winds, which are a local phenomenon specific to this planet.
Whatever Hedgewise and Elementalists do probably uses some, same or not, sort of undifferentiated magical energy likewise, and for absence of any folk nuggets proving oppressive official academy of Colleges false, I would conclude that it is indeed not so easily shaped as Winds and needs to be specially and complexly drawn or created. Regardless of my speculations, whatever they do doesn't disprove Teclisean theory of winds, only show that there's different phenomena at work, and there's no facts indicating otherwise. Malleability of Winds in small quantities known to Colleges may or may not do something with it - but even if it does, it doesn't prove Teclisean theory wrong, merely limit its application scope, same way as quantum mechanics didn't prove entirety of classical physics wrong, and conclusions about danger of an object of high mass flying at high velocity in your face still hold very much true.
On other side: we know for a fact that there was magic before collapse and building itself of Polar Gates and therefore before Winds. Geomantic web existed before collapse; and it seems to hold some sort of undifferentiated magical energy which Slann can use for their own special, non-Wind effects. In quest, dragons are definitely magical creatures, and they are independent of Winds, which are a local phenomenon specific to this planet.
Whatever Hedgewise and Elementalists do probably uses some, same or not, sort of undifferentiated magical energy likewise, and for absence of any folk nuggets proving oppressive official academy of Colleges false, I would conclude that it is indeed not so easily shaped as Winds and needs to be specially and complexly drawn or created. Regardless of my speculations, whatever they do doesn't disprove Teclisean theory of winds, only show that there's different phenomena at work, and there's no facts indicating otherwise. Malleability of Winds in small quantities known to Colleges may or may not do something with it - but even if it does, it doesn't prove Teclisean theory wrong, merely limit its application scope, same way as quantum mechanics didn't prove entirety of classical physics wrong, and conclusions about danger of an object of high mass flying at high velocity in your face still hold very much true.
It isn't necessarily an independent sort of magic. We know next to nothing of Cathay and their magic, but what we do shows that they still have conceptions of Winds (see that tea snippet), Dhar, Arcane and Divine magic, just call and classify them differently. That amulet is just keyed on weirdly defined category of magic in our terms, nothing new. Sure Cathayans can have their own non-Wind tradition(s) too - they are not guaranteed to have a single domineering magical tradition and paradigm like Old World nations do in fact. "Qhaysh and Dhar vs everything else" amulet and "Azyr is water and name of tea" thing can easily belong to different paradigms. We just don't know.
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Pretty much every greatly respected historical thinker of our history who advanced human knowledge was also dead wrong. What was known to be scientific fact at pretty much any point in history - including, I absolutely guarantee you, right now - is seen or will be seen as ridiculously and self-evidently wrong a few generations later to an extent that it can be difficult to believe that someone that was seen as a genius of their time believed in such fatuous bullshit. That Decartes, eh? Light being made of 'corpuscles'? What a twit.
Teclis' model of magic is great at explaining the kinds of magic used on Ulthuan, but of course it's going to fall apart when you try to make it apply to all the kinds of magic used in the Old World. Similarly the theories of the Old World would fall apart in an instant if you carried them over to Cathay and tried to make sense of the Lores of Yin and Yang. Nagash's legacy lives on to this day because he managed to build a build a form of magic that integrated a whopping two completely different paradigms. This is why you can only get a +5 bonus from the books of any one culture for any one subject, because at this point nobody is going to have a framework that is going to be anywhere close to universal.
The wisest of all knows that they know nothing, but scientific nirvana is bad at building siege weapons. The gaping flaws in Archimedes' grasp of physics came as no comfort to the besiegers of Syracuse, and that Teclis was unable to fully explain the magic of the Kurgan did not stop his teachings from killing a great many of them in Kislev.
Teclis' model of magic is great at explaining the kinds of magic used on Ulthuan, but of course it's going to fall apart when you try to make it apply to all the kinds of magic used in the Old World. Similarly the theories of the Old World would fall apart in an instant if you carried them over to Cathay and tried to make sense of the Lores of Yin and Yang. Nagash's legacy lives on to this day because he managed to build a build a form of magic that integrated a whopping two completely different paradigms. This is why you can only get a +5 bonus from the books of any one culture for any one subject, because at this point nobody is going to have a framework that is going to be anywhere close to universal.
The wisest of all knows that they know nothing, but scientific nirvana is bad at building siege weapons. The gaping flaws in Archimedes' grasp of physics came as no comfort to the besiegers of Syracuse, and that Teclis was unable to fully explain the magic of the Kurgan did not stop his teachings from killing a great many of them in Kislev.
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Guys we've got WoG Nagash's Learning stat is 10.
The miracle of large learning institutions is really paying off in causing stat bloat over recent centuries.
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If we're using Learning to refer to Intelligence, then I wouldn't be surprised if he had low base learning but utterly ridiculous bonuses to his fields that he could be rocking +60s when he's on the ball.
Nagash is very smart. A genius even. His track record isn't that great because he falls to megalomania and tactical stupidity. Sigmar the barbarian king outsmarted him by throwing the Crown of Sorcery as a distraction like he was playing fetch with Nagash and he fell for it, letting Sigmar kill him with Ghal Maraz.
Don't do Dhar guys. It never goes well for you or your decision making skills. I think the term for him would be "High Intelligence, Low Wisdom".
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Nagash is really good at making an incredibly powerful hammer using necromancy. Best hammer in the world, even. He also wields that hammer like a drunken moron.
Well being fair to the Great Necromancer he is not the man he used to be. Most people just take it as a given that he broke up his soul into so many parts, the books the crown etc... and yet the assumption is that his core self would not be the least harmed by it. I do not think that is the case. The soul is the seat of the consciousness and Nagash's soul is in pieces. In truth it is kind of amazing that he is even as coherent as it is.
Mopman43
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Though, that comes with the natural corollary that him getting those back would be Bad.
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A worrying moral as Mathilde is likely one of the top necromancers in the world.
Academically at least.
Academically at least.
Mathilde extracted all the tactical insights to be had from the Liber Mortis and transformed them into modern papers, while the structural weaknesses of Dhar constructs are like two paragraphs that she could claim to be her own observation over a long career facing dark sorcery with exceptional windsight if she ever needed to pass it on.
We would have long since burned the Liber Mortis as a sacrifice to Ranald for a boost to the Waystone Project if True Dhar wasn't lurking in the deepest corners of our minds.
Sitting there.
Waiting.
We would have long since burned the Liber Mortis as a sacrifice to Ranald for a boost to the Waystone Project if True Dhar wasn't lurking in the deepest corners of our minds.
Sitting there.
Waiting.
Plus having luck as a dump stat.
Seriously, two plans for godhood, and the only two guys in the old world to be born for thousands of years that could possibly stop him, where around for the date of the plans.
There is unlucky.
There is the gods working against you.
And then There is Naggash.
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