Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
I have to admit something.

Part of my reason for voting for the plan that sabotages Alric is that it's actually just something I'd like to see Mathilde do in the fiction. I'm not sure we've ever seen her execute a `quiet` sabotage mission where the whole point is to ruin an enterprise without leaving too firm a trail. She has the skill set, but there's never been a good excuse. Unless she did something back in the misty beginning of the quest, but that's so far back she was practically a different character.

I'd like her to sabotage Alric largely because I'd like to see Boney write that, and for once there's a good excuse to do it where she gains something from it.
 
Part of my reason for voting for the plan that sabotages Alric is that it's actually just something I'd like to see Mathilde do in the fiction. I'm not sure we've ever seen her execute a `quiet` sabotage mission where the whole point is to ruin an enterprise without leaving too firm a trail. She has the skill set, but there's never been a good excuse. Unless she did something back in the misty beginning of the quest, but that's so far back she was practically a different character.
Well, she did kidnap a guy once in secret, Petr von Stolpe the former Count of Leicheberg, ruining his life and starting the downfall of the Stirland League. Probably not as subtle as you were hoping, but it did the job.
 
So, to me, Elrisse versus Stephens is a question of access versus understanding: Elrisse definitely has access to 100% of the texts the Light Order has. There might be texts that individual members of the Light Order have that she can't access, but if it belongs to the order then she has access to it.

Stephens actually understands collaborative rituals and collaborative enchanting. He doesn't just have books on them, he knows what those books mean. For context: Mathilde has access to 95% of the Grey Order's books on ritual casting, and knows barely anything about ritual casting. We have no reason to believe Elriss is any better informed.

And as Porter-equivalent we can't expect her to be willing to put all her time into learning everything that might be relevant.

I'm willing to have to do the Light Order another favour in future to gain access to their library, so I'm happy to go for both access and understanding - Stephens will be able to make best use of whatever information Elrisse is willing to unlock.

[X] Plan Knowledge for Knowledge
 
Well, she did kidnap a guy once in secret, Petr von Stolpe the former Count of Leicheberg, ruining his life and starting the downfall of the Stirland League. Probably not as subtle as you were hoping, but it did the job.
She also enticed a bunch of criminals across multiple counties to rob the raid the Stirland League and rob it blind just before official troops invaded the premises and seized the paperwork.
 
The Thread: Let's gather the knowledge of all Order Factions to make a better world
Also The Thread: There's no way we're giving them free access to our BÖÖK.
:V
 
The Thread: Let's gather the knowledge of all Order Factions to make a better world
Also The Thread: There's no way we're giving them free access to our BÖÖK.
:V
I thought the same at first, but it's honestly too early to allow a book hoarder official on paper copy rights. It would make every reciprocity deal we have with other libraries into an "and also you'll be giving these books to the Empire Light Order without them giving anyone anything in return because the Head Librarian had some other personal project they helped her with".

If the Light Wizards want to check into our Library and request certain copies the usual way then they will probably be allowed to in the majority of cases.
 
I thought the same at first, but it's honestly too early to allow a book hoarder official on paper copy rights. It would make every reciprocity deal we have with other libraries into an "and also you'll be giving these books to the Empire Light Order without them giving anyone anything in return because the Head Librarian had some other personal project they helped her with".

If the Light Wizards want to check into our Library and request certain copies the usual way then they will probably be allowed to in the majority of cases.
I'd like to point out the wording:

Grant permanent copying permissions to much of your future Library.

If a future copying deal includes "but this is just for your library, you're not letting the Lights copy it" that's not a problem - it puts those books into the category we don't have to share.
 
For the people worried that we don't know anything about rituals, I'd like to point out that Egrimm owns a ritual knife, and as such he might know something about them himself. Coupled with his recent promotion, and he'd probably be a competent and knowledgeable ritual user on our team.

Obviously he wouldn't compare to the most famous ritual user in his order, but remember, nobody knows jack about Egrimm's skills because Alric keeps stealing the credit, so we shouldn't underestimate him at all.

Next turn, let's use a Web-mat action to study rituals with Egrimm and honestly, we should be good to go.

Of course, if people really want the choirmaster we should probably ante up and punch Alric in the face, because we cannot afford to overlook Elrisse when she is literally gatekeeping the secret lore we need from the Lights.
 
That still adds complexity and overhead to the organization of our library.
It does, but if we're planning on making deals where we don't give copying rights to the gained books to all and sundry we're going to need that complexity whenever we make those deals, regardless of what we do today with regards to the Light College.

In other words: it only adds complexity if we were planning on never adding books to the library that people weren't allowed to copy.
 
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Next turn, let's use a Web-mat action to study rituals with Egrimm and honestly, we should be good to go.
I'd be super down for this, except I'd pick one of our other employees, as Egrimm is presumably beyond the College class on rituals at this point.

Heck, given Johann's talent for Gilding, maybe he'll have the same knack for other ritual magic? That'd be pretty cool.
 
When are we going to do our favors for The Dwarven Contingent of our study team?
We already did the cassus belli thing for Thorek by making the Third Schism of the Karaz Ankor paper, and the Middenheim Dwarf thing only needs a few words with the right people to give Mathilde's endorsement, so I don't see why she wouldn't have already done it.
 
I'd be super down for this, except I'd pick one of our other employees, as Egrimm is presumably beyond the College class on rituals at this point.

Heck, given Johann's talent for Gilding, maybe he'll have the same knack for other ritual magic? That'd be pretty cool.

Wouldn't his inflexible magic trait get in the way? I don't know, maybe he's an undiscovered genius at rituals, but remember the Gold's wouldn't even let him study Alchemy. Rituals might be beyond him.

And I'm saying that as someone who loves Johann and wants to see him succeed.
 
The Problem with the Giving Library access, is that it's not Two way.

We give them access to copy stuff, but we don't get access to copy stuff... and since we want to use the Library to preserve knowledge, we need it to be a two way deal.
 
Wouldn't his inflexible magic trait get in the way? I don't know, maybe he's an undiscovered genius at rituals, but remember the Gold's wouldn't even let him study Alchemy. Rituals might be beyond him.

And I'm saying that as someone who loves Johann and wants to see him succeed.
Johann's gilded himself, and I'm pretty sure that's a ritual. I suspect his inflexible magic means he could only do certain rituals though.
 
Johann's gilded himself, and I'm pretty sure that's a ritual. I suspect his inflexible magic means he could only do certain rituals though.
I can confirm that Gilding is a ritual, it's one of the example rituals in Realms of Sorcery 2E. I've gone in depth on the processes of the ritual before:
To those curious about the Gilding Process, without getting into the mechanics of it, this is what Johann Gilded:

Fingers and Toes are cosmetic, so he did them as part of Hands/Arm/Feet/Leg. Hands and Arms are separate processes, the Hands improving manual dexterity and the Arms improving Strength and increasing the Armor of your arm. The process is separate for each hand and arm, and I'm pretty sure Johann did it for each hand and arm instead of skimping on any of it.

Feet and Legs are also separate, and a separate process for the left and right ones. Feet grants bonuses to resisting fatigue on travel by foot, and leg grants armor of the Legs on top of boosting Movement. He probably did every single one of these.

There is no Torso Gilding in Realms of Sorcery for some reason, but I'm pretty sure that it should exist and Johann took it. He also took the Lung gilding which means he doesn't even need to breath air, which he told Mathilde that he uses on solo ventures, probably by using gas.

The Lung one is dangerous if failed, as it causes you pain every time you breath if you fail, but then we get to the very delicate part. The Head. The Head can either be done all at once, or separated into components such as Ear and Nose (eyes aren't included in the book for some reason, but it's clearly a thing). Ears improves hearing, Nose improves smell, and Eyes would logically improve sight. Head lets you gild everything at once, giving you the benefits of everything being gilded (improved senses overall) as well as boosted head armor. The downside is that it is one of two Gildings that results in instant death if failed.

There is another very dangerous gilding that results in instant death. The Heart. If you Gild it then you no longer feel emotional pain, which let me tell you I'm not sure if that's worth risking death.

The book only gives guidelines for these modifications, but you can get creative and gild more parts I'm pretty sure. The only ones in this list that are left for Johann are the Head ones and the Heart. After the disaster that happened with his eyes, I'm not sure if he's keen to possibly ruin his other senses, and I'm not sure he should risk death for the Head. The Heart is not worth it. Maybe he can do Liver or Kidneys or Intestines I guess. I'm pretty sure bones and muscles are linked to the limb in question so I don't think you can gild them directly unless it counts as a separate "organ".
The Hands and Feet are 300 GC for an attempt, so he payed that 4 times at least. The Arms, Legs, and Lungs are all 400 GC each, and I'm willing to be the Torso is as well. He would have had to pay that cost 6 times at least. He did his eyes twice, both failures, and assuming they cost as much as ears and nose, that's 300 GC for both attempts.

Overall cost of Johann's Gilding= 300x4+400x6+300x2= 4200 GC total. Assuming the Eyes were his only failure.

This process is pretty damn expensive.

EDIT: I should mention that the cost has to be in "pure gold", so it can be inflated depending on how hard it is to get that gold.
And this is me going over nearly every ritual I've been able to find in 2E:
I thought it would be fun to go over all the rituals I've been able to find descriptions on. Note that many of them aren't really the type to be cast by the Colleges, as I'm including Necromancy, Daemonic and Divine rituals in here too. I hope this is helpful in showing examples to people of what rituals are like, including their ridiculous conditions, their effects and the possible backlash you'd get from casting it:

Daemonic. Very High difficulty. Requires at least 5 spellcasters, a full moon, the head of a Beastman shaman, two human sacrifices, one man and one woman both of whom haven't eaten in a week and a thimble of warpstone. Four hour casting time, if it fails the ritual backfires on the casters. Effect causes everyone within one mile with a WIllpower of less than 50% to turn into a beastman for 24 hours and go into a killing spree. The ritual reverts after 24 hours but anyone who survives doesn't come out mentally unscathed.
Arcane. High Difficulty. Requires a dragon's tooth, a diamond worth 500gc, a gong blessed by a dying priest and for the caster to be naked and painted with woad. Failing the ritual causes you to get swallowed by the earth. Eight hour casting time and a 3 mile range, the ritual affects an area equivalent to a small town. The ritual creates an earthquake lasting one minute that destroys all but the strongest buildings.
Arcane. Chamon only. I'm sure we all know what this does, Johann's done it. I'll copy paste the post I already made on it Gilding in relation to Johann:

Fingers and Toes are cosmetic, so he did them as part of Hands/Arm/Feet/Leg. Hands and Arms are separate processes, the Hands improving manual dexterity and the Arms improving Strength and increasing the Armor of your arm. The process is separate for each hand and arm, and I'm pretty sure Johann did it for each hand and arm instead of skimping on any of it.

Feet and Legs are also separate, and a separate process for the left and right ones. Feet grants bonuses to resisting fatigue on travel by foot, and leg grants armor of the Legs on top of boosting Movement. He probably did every single one of these.

There is no Torso Gilding in Realms of Sorcery for some reason, but I'm pretty sure that it should exist and Johann took it. He also took the Lung gilding which means he doesn't even need to breath air, which he told Mathilde that he uses on solo ventures, probably by using gas.

The Lung one is dangerous if failed, as it causes you pain every time you breath if you fail, but then we get to the very delicate part. The Head. The Head can either be done all at once, or separated into components such as Ear and Nose (eyes aren't included in the book for some reason, but it's clearly a thing). Ears improves hearing, Nose improves smell, and Eyes would logically improve sight. Head lets you gild everything at once, giving you the benefits of everything being gilded (improved senses overall) as well as boosted head armor. The downside is that it is one of two Gildings that results in instant death if failed.

There is another very dangerous gilding that results in instant death. The Heart. If you Gild it then you no longer feel emotional pain, which let me tell you I'm not sure if that's worth risking death.

The book only gives guidelines for these modifications, but you can get creative and gild more parts I'm pretty sure. The only ones in this list that are left for Johann are the Head ones and the Heart. After the disaster that happened with his eyes, I'm not sure if he's keen to possibly ruin his other senses, and I'm not sure he should risk death for the Head. The Heart is not worth it. Maybe he can do Liver or Kidneys or Intestines I guess. I'm pretty sure bones and muscles are linked to the limb in question so I don't think you can gild them directly unless it counts as a separate "organ".
Arcane. Very High difficulty. Effect causes a target to dance until they die. Anyone who looks at the dancer must attempt to resist or they will join the dance. Other conditions include an incredibly well made lute strung with hair from a unicorn's mane, five gallons of the blood of agile dancers, and one pair of dancing shoes made by the finest cobbler of the "realm he cobbles". The caster must also be a dancer to cast this. Finally, in order to curse someone the caster need to spend four hours casting while the target is held immobile. If the caster fails the casting, they dance until they're dead, but they don't cause anyone who looks at them to dance too. Only a Shallyan caster with Cure Insanity can stop the Dance. It should be reminded that the Dance infection only occurs by looking at the original cursed Dancer, not at the ones they infect.
Arcane. Medium difficulty. Requires the boots of 100 soldiers, one coin of the wages of each soldier who will travel, an eagle's wing, and an order for deployment written on flawless parchment in ink made from the troop commander's own blood. This ritual is pretty complicated, but basically, it's a teleportation ritual with a ton of caveats attached to it. You can cast it with one person, or you can cast it with multiple people with no upper limit. Bear with me here, because there's a lot to go through:

Essentially, you and whoever is helping you cast the ritual cast throughout "all the hours of darkness in one night". If you're successful, you teleport an entire group of individuals, including the casters."The march's objective may be any natural place in the Old World to which the body could eventually travel, unbarred, on foot". It's important to note that this teleportation is basically acceleration rather than traditional teleportation, so it actually counts as a "full night's hard march". At least half the people being teleported have to be soldiers. The number of people being teleported depends on the total magic scores of every caster involved in the ritual. Each caster is in charge of a portion of the group. Each caster who fails the cast suffers the consequence alongside their portion.

What are the consequence? You get transported to somewhere random anywhere in the world. There's a reason most soldiers who go through this spell really hate it. Many of them see their friends disappear.
Arcane. Medium Difficulty. Requires a sheet of parchment made from the skin of a stillborn lamb and bearing the exact words of the oath written in the blood of a judge, a drop of the oathbreaker's blood and spit, and a vial containing the breath of one wronged by the breaking of the oath. The ritual must be cast within one mile of the oathbreaker and the oathbreaker may not speak a word for the 4 hour casting time of the spell. If the ritual fails, then you're forced to carry out the oath yourself. If the ritual is a success, you force someone who has sworn an oath and has either broken it or intends to break it, even if they swore said oath in jest, under compulsion or when blind drunk, to carry it out in both letter and spirit to the best of their ability. They will not be suicidal in doing it and will be capable of holding back for the right opportunity, but they will fulfill it to the best of their ability.
Daemonic. Very High difficulty. Requires the whole and unhewn corpse of a Daemon of Nurgle, a forty-pound candle made with the drippings of three dozen men killed by the Neiglish Rot, brackish water collected from three foetid swamps at least one thousand miles from each other, and the hand of a mad surgeon. The caster must also have survived the Neiglish Rot at least once in their life. If they fail the ritual they contract Neiglish Rot and auto fail their saving throws, resulting in near guaranteed death over the course of the illness. If they succeed, everyone within one mile must test for toughness or contract Neiglish Rot. I'll talk about it later, but NR is pretty horrific, and it's very serious business to get infected by it.
Arcane: High Difficulty. Requires a drop of blood taken from a male of the line since the previous sunset, a fist-sized chunk of warpstone, a solid silver goblet worth at least 100 gc, and a stillborn goat. No member of the lineage the ritual is being cast on may be expecting child or an auto failure happens. A failure results in your lineage being affected instead. A success means every single person from a particular family related to the individual you're targeting by blood will be infertile for all time. You can choose to affect only men or only women. 8 hour casting time.
High Nehekharan. High Difficulty. Requires a piece of stone from a Nehekharan building, a map of the tower drawn with the blood of a mason, the skull of a Stone Troll. Caster must be capable of Stoneworking. Failure results in one hand turning to stone permanently. 4 hour casting time, this ritual causes a 50 foot tall building to spontaneously form. The layout is determined by the map drawn as part of the ingredients.
Necromantic. High Difficulty. Requires the sword arms of ten dead soldiers, a drum made of bones and Human skin, a fragment of Warpstone the size of a skull, and a barrel of rum. An assistant must continuously beat the bone drum while the four hour ritual takes place.The ritual raises up to 30 skeletons or zombies. The difference between these and standard undead is that they don't count towards how many undead the caster is limited to controlling, there is no time limit for them, and they listen to orders no matter how far they get from the caster. They remain even if the caster is slain. If the caster fails the ritual, the undead turn on them.
Arcane. Medium Difficulty. Requires the hearts of five followers of Khorne or Shallya or a combination of both, a Griffon's feather, a calf born in the last spring in the lands targeted. It must be cast on the highest ground in the area to be affected. Takes 4 hours to cast. Success means a rain of blood for one hour over an area of five square miles, feeding vampires on the march and disheartening the enemy. Failure means a rain of holy water instead.
High Nehekharan. Incredibly High difficulty. Requires the hands of a midwife, the last drop of a Human's blood, a Dragon's tooth, the womb of a cow raised on blood, the remains of a Vampire. 4 hour casting time, and it may only be cast on an "accursed location", which means an area where a large scale tragedy has taken place. Failure on the ritual causes the caster to suffer the same tragedy as those in the accursed area. A successful cast returns a Vampire to unlife. The caster need to not only be successful, but beat the casting roll by five. If the casting roll is not beaten by five, then the Vampire doesn't come back but difficulty lowers a little. The ritual can be attempted again in another accursed location that is at least 20 miles away. Each failed cast takes years away from the caster's life.
Necromancy. Medium Difficulty. Requires the birth caul of a sailor, a ship that sank with her crew, the hands of a drowned priest of Manann, a ship's manifest written in blood, a fist-sized chunk of Warpstone. Failure causes the caster to be tormented by visions of being drowned in an ocean of damned souls. Success in this four hour ritual means that a sunken ship rises from where it's resting place. There are as many skeletons or spectres as there were crew when it sank. The ship is as rotten as it was on the ocean floor but it rots no further. The ship needs no wind on its sails, it moves at an even speed regardless of weather.
Divine. Very High Difficulty. Requires a quart of blessed liquid (different cults prefer different liquids, including fresh water, brine, animal blood, and beer) and a holy symbol of your cult. The caster must purify themselves for a full week and then spend a further two days contemplating divine texts before drawing their holy symbol with the blessed liquid and casting for 1d10+4 hours. Casting becomes easier on holy days and holy ground. A failed cast causes the caster's god to retaliate viciously with their Vengeance. A successful one summons a divine servant, which differs based on the god and the variation of the ritual cast. This can summon a holy animal, a Venerated Soul, or an odd manifestation like a twin tailed comet for Sigmar and a Cat's Paw for Ranald. Whoever summons the Divine Servant has absolutely no control over it, and it does what it pleases. The caster must have a very good reason for summoning, or they will suffer the Wrath of the Gods.
Divine. Difficulty fluctuates based on the size of the area consecrated. The materials are variable but generally involve blessed liquid, holy symbol, sacrifice appropriate to the cult, a fitting site and sometimes more. Casters must purify themselves beforehand. Most widely known divine ritual. If properly cast it boosts all divine casters of the particular god within the consecrated area and holds certain implications against specific creatures like Vampires. If failed, the ritual makes it look like it worked but it didn't.
Divine. Sigmarite only. Shallyans have their own version called Rite of Casting Out. Ritual casts out a Daemon possessing someone. Medium Difficulty for the actual cast, the difficult part is the battle against the Daemon. Requires an illuminated copy of The Book of Sigmar, the sign of the hammer or twin-tailed comet, new Priestly vestments, rope and nails for binding, a vial of holy water, a hammer, a goat (or some other animal) or mirror, and a roaring fire. Also needs the Exorcist to spend three consecutive days prior to casting the ritual in meditation and prayer. Once they are finished, they gather their witnesses, one to see and watch, one to help, and at least one who is bound to the victim by blood or marriage. The helpers must bind the victim to a tree with stout rope and nails, while the Exorcist readies the animal (or mirror) to contain the fiendish entity. Failure results in the Daemon becoming more resistant to exorcism, or if a miscast occurs allows the Daemon to possess the exorcist. Success means the fight actually begins as the Exorcist and Daemon get into a battle of wills. The process is long and arduous and can end in either victory or defeat.
Daemonic. Medium difficulty. Ritual from the Codex of Unspeakable Damnation. Requires a bowl of the caster's blood, a sacrificial knife covered in Human excrement, and a Human sacrifice. The Human must be nude and painted in profane sigils and runes invoking the names of Tzeentch. The caster must forgo using magic for 8 hours and abstain from alcohol and stimulants for a week. Failure causes the caster to glimpse Chaos, blasting away sanity. Success draws the soul out of the victim, killing them in the process and turning the soul into a ball of stretchy ectoplasm. The ball lasts for a few weeks and can be expended at any point to boost a singular spell significantly. 1 hour casting time.
Arcane. Easy. 1 hour casting time. Requires the caster's body to be nude and covered in arcane sigils from head to toe with ink mixed from the caster's own blood and expensive compounds (20 gc). The ritual must be cast before sleep, and the caster must sleep in a circle made from a chaos follower or Daemon's blood. Daemon's blood boosts the spell, making it easier to cast. Failure causes the caster to suffer unadulterated Chaos, blasting sanity. Success in the ritual allows the user to transport their soul to the Aethyr into one of the Legendary Locations in the Realm of Chaos. The spirit form is invincible to harm but not insanity, and what is seen by the caster is likely to leave them disturbed. Seeing the Legendary Locations provides an unprecedented level of knowledge and understanding of Chaos. This ritual is from the non-redacted version of the Liber Malefic, available in the Cathedral of Sigmar's archives.
Daemonic. Every detail in this ritual varies based on the circumstances. Difficulty is determined by the power of the Daemon being summoned, casting time is dependent on the Daemon, ingredients are determined by the Daemon, and the consequences of failure are dependent on the Daemon and its power level. Generally the consequences are severe and involve insanity and mutation, and depending on the Daemon straight up death. Ritual can involve drawn Octagrams so the caster can make the process of containing the Daemon and contesting its willpower to gain control easier. If the caster has the Daemon's True Name, it makes things much easier as it allows direct summoning and proper containment, as well as domination of the Daemon in question. Certain Daemons can be bound as familiars. Well, technically any Daemon can be bound as a familiar as long as an agreement is reached, but there's a reason you don't try to bind strong Daemons as familiars.
If anyone's curious over what rituals look like, I have more than a dozen examples recorded there. Rituals are.... something alright.
 
Wouldn't his inflexible magic trait get in the way? I don't know, maybe he's an undiscovered genius at rituals, but remember the Gold's wouldn't even let him study Alchemy. Rituals might be beyond him.

And I'm saying that as someone who loves Johann and wants to see him succeed.
It certainly could do, but as Gilding is a ritual that might mean that rituals in general are a part of magic that Johann can do.
 
Johann's gilded himself, and I'm pretty sure that's a ritual. I suspect his inflexible magic means he could only do certain rituals though.

I can confirm that Gilding is a ritual, it's one of the example rituals in Realms of Sorcery 2E. I've gone in depth on the processes of the ritual before:

It certainly could do, but as Gilding is a ritual that might mean that rituals in general are a part of magic that Johann can do.

Okay, I stand corrected. Objections withdrawn.
 
Of course, if people really want the choirmaster we should probably ante up and punch Alric in the face, because we cannot afford to overlook Elrisse when she is literally gatekeeping the secret lore we need from the Lights.
I'm getting more and more tempted to vote for it, but there's actually an additional drawback except for those related to the cost. Having three Light Lord Magisters involved in the Waystone Project would quite overshadow the Grey Order and, more importantly, opens us up for a Light takeover, at least when it comes to control over the Empire side of the project.

Although, now that I think about it, I don't even know how much of a problem that would be for me personally. More politics and pressure from above in the Quest aren't drawbacks to me. And anyway, we could balance the Light Order out by winning an equal contribution from the Jades and by having a secure hold on all contributions by Dwarves (or others who only joined due to our personal reputation).

Did I mention that I'm getting more and more tempted? I'm just still a bit wary of the multi-layered risks of promising to sabotage Alric.
It certainly could do, but as Gilding is a ritual that might mean that rituals in general are a part of magic that Johann can do.
Johann can cast some spells but not others. It stands to reason that he can do some rituals but not others.
 
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