Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Honestly a part of me resents being put on the spot like this. If this experiment had been run on any other god, any other god Mathilde hadn't been warned away from investigating and had a deep personal relationship with, then the choice would be much more clear cut.

Yeah not gonna lie when i saw that we were going to use the coin my reaction was 'Why the hell are we using the coin?!' Hell Mathilde in the first experiment stayed away thinking it might explode, why risk our most valuable artifact when we could have simply called for help from some random priest.

Remember how Mathilde described Ulgu to Eike?
A secret only I know.

Silly muggle, treasure knowledge is for having.

Right and this translates to… more Learning points and maybe some bonus we could get with more divine books? In exchange to be branded a heretic… yeah, reeeeally not seeing why is worth the cost tbh.

Also, about looking at evil gods instend of human gods... I'm I the only one who think that looking at the fingerprints of the bloody Chaos Gods would have... very, very, very, VERY bad consequences for Mathilde?
 
Damn. Am like 20 pages behind and will never catch up, but... I've been seeing that a lot of the circular discussion topic has been around "The gods will notice!" "No they won't." "Doing this is disrespectful to Ranald!" "Ranald probably knows anyway." "This is taking knowledge from the gods that we shouldn't be taking!" "So what, they voyeuristically spy on humans all the time anyway, isn't this just getting even?"

To... sort of edge around those arguments, I think the issue isn't just something like 'Is doing this disrespectful to Ranald and/or to gods in general?' or 'Wait, would the Gods notice if we take tiny crystals of their energy?'

The issue is, as the update said, that this is "a declaration of war against the secrecy of the Gods and the Cults."

Meaning, the issue will be that in order to progress this research, you have to go into the places of knowledge and worship of the Cults, and steal knowledge from them that they won't even realize you are taking from them.

And the question is: is that an okay thing to do? To the Gods and to the Cults of humans?

We won't just be doing something presumably/arguably transgressive against Gods, we'll also be treating the Cults -- of Verena and Ulric and Sigmar and Loec and Hoeth -- as knowledge-pinatas. (Or, alternatively, we only target the Kurgan Moon God and Gunndred and Khaine and Gork and Hashut with this. In which case, well, that's a hazard of an entirely different sort. :V) (Or we target ancient or dead or foreign gods, play archaeologist, or something else.)

But, like. Do you want to look at the culture and history and the relationship that humankind has had with the gods, and go "Yeah I'll just take knowledge from you that you aren't realizing you are giving."

I mean, I'm pretty sure the answer to that for some people is going to be "Well of course. It gets us knowledge and we can use that knowledge" and "and nobody is really being hurt by it" and so on. But, well, still. That "a declaration of war against the secrecy of the Gods and the Cults" part of Boney's post comes to mind anyway.

Though, we don't necessarily have to go too far or target good gods. But then in that case, we aren't exploring the Truth option to its furthest exactly. Which might be frustrating to the Truth voters in a different way.

That's one reason why I voted for the Faith option. Because it felt more palatable to be. And because I wanted to see what the Faith choice involved I guess. As it's a mystery box and I want to see what is in it.

I can bear the cultural insensitivity towards say the god of thugs slavers and cattle rustlers with great fortitude yes. If we judge a god an their cult evil enough to kill them on sight I think it is reasonable to try to get an imprint of their god so as to be able to find more cultists.

I would rather go there than take from Ulric, Manaan, Taal, Morr or even Sigmar.

And that is valid, that still does not mean it should have been the first thing to jump to Mathilde's mind as it is neither close nor available. I feel like you are taking what was a moment's flight of fancy really far . It's a bit like like taking the moment where Mathilde's internal dialogue describes the First Secret of Dhar and taking that for proof that she really wants to raise a legion of the undead.
 
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I a can bear the cultural insensitivity towards say the god of thugs slavers and cattle rustlers with great fortitude yes. If we judge a god an their cult evil enough to kill them on sight I think it is reasonable to try to get an imprint of their god so as to be able to find more cultists.

Do we even have time for doing that, assuming that looking directly at a fingerprint of a evil god (which mind not be the best of ideas, sanitly and all that) would allow us to find cultists just looking at it? I mean... if you want to go witch-hunting we are hands down one of the best anti-necromancers in the world and we had the option to help in the Slyvannia campaing for, like, 20 turns or something but no one wants to go because we have other stuff to do.
 
Also, about looking at evil gods instend of human gods... I'm I the only one who think that looking at the fingerprints of the bloody Chaos Gods would have... very, very, very, VERY bad consequences for Mathilde?
If we're going to be looking at gods, I would rather take the risk of death for Mathilde to be looking at evil Gods then take from the Gods of Humanity. I'm internally accepting the option, so I'm looking for ways that I would be fine with it, and if Mathilde dies in the process then I'll take it.

There are also evil gods that aren't Chaos Gods. We don't need to go straight to them.
 
If we're going to be looking at gods, I would rather take the risk of death for Mathilde to be looking at evil Gods then take from the Gods of Humanity. I'm internally accepting the option, so I'm looking for ways that I would be fine with it, and if Mathilde dies in the process then I'll take it.

There are also evil gods that aren't Chaos Gods. We don't need to go straight to them.
The good thing about evil Gods is that sooner or later, they'll come to you. Wether you want to or not.

... Except the maw. The maw is pretty stationary, all things considered.
 
Do we even have time for doing that, assuming that looking directly at a fingerprint of a evil god (which mind not be the best of ideas, sanitly and all that) would allow us to find cultists just looking at it? I mean... if you want to go witch-hunting we are hands down one of the best anti-necromancers in the world and we had the option to help in the Slyvannia campaing for, like, 20 turns or something but no one wants to go because we have other stuff to do.

Well as pointed out we do not need to start with that, we can start with the altar already in our possession and continue with the stuff already in Cython's possession if he has any (which I think he very likely does).
 
I would rather go there than take from Ulric, Manaan, Taal, Morr or even Sigmar.
So would most voters for Truth. Many have in fact raised the possibility throughout the discussion, including myself. DragonParadox brought up the distance to the Great Maw to explain why Mathilde would use Sigmar or Ulric, more familiar gods to Mathilde, as an example, not as a reason to prey on gods of Order for being more convenient to get to.
 
If we're going to be looking at gods, I would rather take the risk of death for Mathilde to be looking at evil Gods then take from the Gods of Humanity. I'm internally accepting the option, so I'm looking for ways that I would be fine with it, and if Mathilde dies in the process then I'll take it.

There are also evil gods that aren't Chaos Gods. We don't need to go straight to them.

The vote will still be open for a few days, no need to be fatalistc just because Faith is losing at the momment. Have faith, Faith can still win! :grin:

And yeah it also does not sit well with me to look at the good gods, I'm just pointing out that looking at the evil ones may also be a bad idea...

Well as pointed out we do not need to start with that, we can start with the altar already in our possession and continue with the stuff already in Cython's possession if he has any (which I think he very likely does).

Yeah, we need to check this out... along with a shit load of other stuff. That's my point; we already have way to many things to do, I find it unlikely that we will be looking at this very dangerous research option any time soon, specially since we cannot use Ranald to help us out and we have not seen a dice roll result in ages...
 
Then what about the Great Maw. I assume she knows enough about Ogres to know they worship it because of Qrech, and she has Geography books from Cathay that indicate where it is located.

Mathilde's first thoughts were of the places she was already familiar with, places she could trivially visit. It wasn't an exhaustive list of every conceivable possibility and it wasn't an exploration of the morality of the idea, it was a realization of the most obvious ways this new knowledge could be applied. That's why she didn't think of a place thousands of miles away, on an entirely separate continent, that she's only vaguely familiar with through a very small number of books, that would require travelling the breadth of the entire pre-Pax Greasus Ogre Kingdoms.
 
Other options include taking the Elfcation and raiding Druchii Temples in Naggaroth. I'd be fine with analysing Nehekharan Gods (they perform blood sacrifice so they're free game) but they're particularly spiteful so we'd have to be careful there, but the very idea of trying to steal from the gods holds as much danger as a Tomb King Army anyway.
 
Other options include taking the Elfcation and raiding Druchii Temples in Naggaroth. I'd be fine with analysing Nehekharan Gods (they perform blood sacrifice so they're free game) but they're particularly spiteful so we'd have to be careful there, but the very idea of trying to steal from the gods holds as much danger as a Tomb King Army anyway.
Arent they also dead?
 
From what I have understand death is a very real option for this quest. I distinctly remember at least one roll which was "if you roll a nat 1 the quest ends here".
And necromancy has at various points been an option. Reputation, physical and emotional damage all included.
All the strength to strength has been ahead of the time preparations that saved our bacon (Seed, belt) or just a large helping of luck.
When we pulled a mountain out of the warp there was a 1/6 chance of it being lost forever.
When we pulled the heist on Mork there was a 1/6 chance of "One less god".
If I may be honest - and again, this isn't critique of Boney whatsoever, I think it's a perfectly acceptable way to reconcile tension and player choice with ultimately having a story that makes people happy instead of frustrated - I've been a lot of games where the the GM has repeatedly told me that something could easily kill my/the character... But when push comes to shove, they'd rather fudge it then pull the trigger.

That's why I wanna push my luck. It's my sicko impulse.
 
Arent they also dead?

Not to pick on you specifically, but this is an odd mental block I've noticed a number of times. People look at the nation whose defining characteristic is that the dead things are nonetheless walking around and doing things, and they can't figure out a way to reconcile "the gods are supposed to be dead" with "the gods seem to be walking around and doing things".
 
I voted for Truth because, at this point, it doesn't really feel like Boney is interested in writing a quest with life-ruining setbacks for the protagonist - regardless of the votes, Mathilde's kinda gone from strength to strength, with only relatively minor bumps on her way to the top. Which is fine; a lot of people don't enjoy reading (or writing) bitter and painful stories about people losing their carefully-built reputations, or being deprived all their stuff, or suffering irreparable physical and emotional damage. Especially when it's in a loaded format like this one where people can be assigned "blame" for bad decisions.
I mean, the only reason Mathilde is not dead yet or black magister is because of lucky rolls and prudent choices, like not sharing our ownership of Liber Mortis. This is a really dangerous mindset to vote with. Its a real possibility that if our fuckery gets noticed, it will sever our ties to Ranald, or that the offended Deity will smite us from on high. Worst case scenario, if the flavour text is actually accurate depiction of real possibilities, entire Pantheons might align themselves against our interests. Or Chaos yoinks the crystals to beffudle the faithful.

Now, some of these possibilities are fairly out there, but all the same, its one thing to yolo if you are fully aware you are yoloing. Seeing DL as low stakes, no worries about the easily quest ending miserable consequences kind of romp is entirely other.
 
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Arent they also dead?
This is a common misconception and fanon that keeps being cycled round and round, but I made posts about this before:
The Nehekharan book says that the gods "abandoned them" when Settra is revived, but Khalida still has Asaph's blessing. Karitamen is still sealed in by Asaph's glyphs. Apophas' curse is still active. The blessings of the gods still exist. The lore of Nehekhara is still usable. It seems to me that the Nehekharan gods are not dead, because there's clear evidence of their effects still inhabiting the world.
. There is nothing that says the Gods of Nehekhara are dead, only that they "abandoned Nehekhara" (Pg. 16 Tomb Kings Army Book). Nothing says that the Nehekharan gods are much weaker but Usirian is the only one who remains in power. Every single Skeleton Archer in the army of Nehekhara is blessed by Asaph. That is the concept behind the "Arrows of Asaph" rule.

Necropolis Knights are blessed by Qu'aph, which explains how "deadly poison mysteriously drips" from the fangs of a damn statue. The Necrosphinxes are said by the Liche Priests to be animated by the breath of Usekph and Pha'a.

Also, there seems to be an inherent misunderstanding here on the nature of Liche Priests and their lore. The Lore of Nehekhara doesn't just invoke Usirian. In fact, of the seven spells available in the base army book, only one invokes him. There is also a spell for Khsar (desert winds), Djaf (Death and War), Neru (Moon), Ptra (Sun), Usekph and Sakhmet. Liche Priestdom has spells that invoke many other gods, not just Usirian.
If they're "dead", then their effects still exist in this world. There are artifacts like Ranald's coin that some of the Nehekharan Kings still wield. If those things exist, then so does their fingerprint.
 
Yeah, we need to check this out... along with a shit load of other stuff. That's my point; we already have way to many things to do, I find it unlikely that we will be looking at this very dangerous research option any time soon, specially since we cannot use Ranald to help us out and we have not seen a dice roll result in ages...

I really do not think pocking the altar of a dead tribe of Kurgans which we have already safely dragged halfway across the world as loot is in any way very dangerous.
 
Other options include taking the Elfcation and raiding Druchii Temples in Naggaroth. I'd be fine with analysing Nehekharan Gods (they perform blood sacrifice so they're free game) but they're particularly spiteful so we'd have to be careful there, but the very idea of trying to steal from the gods holds as much danger as a Tomb King Army anyway.

What about gods that practice animal sacrifice? (Not that I can think of any..)
 
I've been a lot of games where the the GM has repeatedly told me that something could easily kill my/the character... But when push comes to shove, they'd rather fudge it then pull the trigger.

This is why when push comes to shove, I roll the dice in the thread or on Orokos. Which is also handy when the dice pull things that I wouldn't blame anyone for calling bullshit on if they only had my word for it.
 
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Not to pick on you specifically, but this is an odd mental block I've noticed a number of times. People look at the nation whose defining characteristic is that the dead things are nonetheless walking around and doing things, and they can't figure out a way to reconcile "the gods are supposed to be dead" with "the gods seem to be walking around and doing things".
Right they're not just dead, but undead.

Pleasant place, that Nehekhara
 
What about gods that practice animal sacrifice? (Not that I can think of any..)
That's fine. My religion does that, and we make sure not to waste any part of the sheep. We slaughter it and make sure everyone eats every single edible part, so there is no waste.

Sacrifice humans (or any sapient being) for symbolic value is where I draw the line, but I don't want to derail the thread into morality arguments.
 
Okay… I absolutely hate to do this and I apologize profoundly for it @Boney , feel free to say 'try and find out' to all my questions but:

1) By Mathilde's knowledge and understanding: does she believe that Ranald would be upset if we try to hide this from him? I'm not asking if he will, I'm asking what she, with all that she knows of Ranald, thinks would happen.

2) By Mathilde's knowledge and understanding: how much of a… 'heresy'… is trying to look into this is and what would be the possible consequences if we are found out? Be by the gods or other mortals?

3) By Mathilde's knowledge and understanding: what benefits does she believe can be achieved by learning more about the gods using their Fingerprints?

Again, hate to do this, feel free to ignore any and all questions or just say 'try and find out'.
 
Does Ranald, or any of the "Order Gods" have something akin to Daemons/Greater Daemons @Boney ? If so, did they used to be mortal?
 
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