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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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The Battle Magic:

BoneyM said:
U / Steed of Shadows: Not to be confused with Shadowsteed, an insubstantial pegasus or drake appears under an ally within short range and carries them across the battlefield at incredible speed.
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My understanding is that this is less a full flying mount, and more a fancy teleport that can take other people. Flight just isn't in Ulgu's bailiwick.

We could probably swing something with Windherder by working with an Azyr wizard, but either we'd need them to help cast it every time or it'd run into the same flaw every means of flight via enchantment does- one dispel means very probably death.
 
Codex said:
With the restructuring, it looks like the EIC takes up a full action and WEB-MAT doesn't take any slots, it just gives us a free AP for every 2 we spend. So yeah I'm pretty sure giving up EIC gives us an AP.
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I'm pretty sure it's EIC+Library that's taking up a single AP slot. But we'll get clarification at some point.
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I have realised another potential argument in favour of Windherding - we unlocked that ability based on a project that combined runes and wind magic, which suggests that it will be useful for making enchanted runic items.

Neither dwarves nor elves currently have any experience with making them. They might well find that they don't know how to manage the natural interference (where runes both eat and repel the winds). Which would make a collaborative project like rune+high magic waystones utterly impossible.

IMO It'd be good if Mathilde worked on and was ready to teach her knowledge of said ability before that problem comes to the fore - especially given as Mathilde tends to live a dangerous life, and thus knowledge that she avoids passing on is knowledge that may well be lost forever if she dies in combat.
 
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I'm totally down with doing our first foray into Windherding next turn, either as a WEBMAT action or by hiring a College enchanter to make something like Jyn's Dammerlichtreiter Saddle for the Hochlander. I just don't want to do so this turn because I would really like to chip away a bit more at our giant AV tech tree after having dropped it for three IC years and one OOC year.
 
picklepikkl said:
I'm totally down with doing our first foray into Windherding next turn, either as a WEBMAT action or by hiring a College enchanter to make something like Jyn's Dammerlichtreiter Saddle for the Hochlander. I just don't want to do so this turn because I would really like to chip away a bit more at our giant AV tech tree after having dropped it for three IC years and one OOC year.
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Windherder has been dropped since we first got it four and a half IC years ago - one and a half OOC years ago.

EDIT: Also, AV was dropped when we completed a tech tree branch that gives us a great use for the entire supply of AV we'll ever have. I kind of feel like that is a fine point at which to leave it unless we find some way to get more, or have something specific we want from it.
EDIT2: Or at the very least, until we have a priest involved who can provide divine energy for testing, rather than just shrines and a Coin.
 
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kingreaper said:
Windherding can, in enchantments, combine multiple winds to create novel effects that no single wind could do.

It's not outright High Magic because we're not good enough at it to manage eight wizards working together - but the only way we're ever going to get that good is if we actually use it, rather than leaving the ability to collect dust.
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I think this comes back to a "realistic expectations" issue, then - I'm not at all convinced we'll ever get good enough at it to manage eight wizards working together to produce legitimate High Magic effects. I believe Boney's directly addressed how absurdly difficult of a prospect that would be - @picklepikkl could I get a cite on that, since you're around? I can go find what I'm thinking of if needed though.
Codex said:
With the restructuring, it looks like the EIC takes up a full action and WEB-MAT doesn't take any slots, it just gives us a free AP for every 2 we spend. So yeah I'm pretty sure giving up EIC gives us an AP.
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@BoneyM could you confirm whether or not this is accurate?
 
Wiadi said:
I think this comes back to a "realistic expectations" issue, then - I'm not at all convinced we'll ever get good enough at it to manage eight wizards working together to produce legitimate High Magic effects.
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I'm not convinced we will, but I think it's worth trying when we'll be producing a ton of useful items and discoveries in the attempt.

There's a lot of ways it might be possible - for instance we could learn to make structures that allow the eight wizards to work one at a time, or we might find that Light College Choir techniques make it far more feasible than we currently know to collaborate in real time.

But if we just leave it lie because all we know it will do is make awesome, previously impossible, magic items and allow us to train others to do the same* - well, I'll be sad. One of the most awesome unique powers of Mathilde and it's forever dismissed because step one isn't immediately worldshaking, it only significantly improves the knowledge and capabilities of the colleges, and because we haven't taken a single step it doesn't get the benefit of "we've left it fallow for a while, we should get back to it" like AV does.

(*Because it's a skill, not a trait, and skills are things that can be taught)
 
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@kingreaper speaking as someone who is voting for AV I have to say I do not want 7 more uses for it, just one more for a very simple reason. AV is like money, in that it constantly accrues and does us no good when it is just sitting in a barrel, like it is an actual physical thing that takes up barrel space and could be used for high energy magic yet we are never going to give all or most of it to the Runesmiths Guild. The fact of the matter is we do not need that many runes. Having a use for it besides runes is thus desirable, even if it is just dumping it on Ranald for a small power up.
 
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DragonParadox said:
@kingreaper speaking as someone who is voting for AV I have to say I do not want 7 more uses for it, just one more for a very simple reason. AV is like money, in that it constantly accrues and does us no good when it is just sitting in a barrel, like it is an actual physical thing that takes up barrel space and could be used for high energy magic yet we are never going to give all or most of it to the Runesmiths Guild. The fact of the matter is we do not need that many runes. Having a use for it besides runes is thus desirable, even if it is just dumping it on Ranald for a small power up.
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The 7 uses thing was in response to the idea that we should complete the tree - meaning we'd need to go down every branch.

But I deleted the post ultimately because I give up - it's clear that windherding isn't going to win this time, and I'm just wasting everyone's energy by trying to argue for it.
 
kingreaper said:
The 7 uses thing was in response to the idea that we should complete the tree - meaning we'd need to go down every branch.

But I deleted the post ultimately because I give up - it's clear that windherding isn't going to win this time, and I'm just wasting everyone's energy by trying to argue for it.
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Well for what it is worth I am planning to vote for it next turn.
 
I do feel that while Windherding probably can't replicate High Magic--taken to a high enough level, it might produce novel effects that High Magic doesn't do easily.

Because High Magic requires taking all eight Winds and braiding them together properly, it can't just use one or two and create an unusual effect through a serial mechanism. Windherding can, because it doesn't require the Winds to mix, merely interact in an unusual fashion.
 
Alectai said:
I do feel that while Windherding probably can't replicate High Magic--taken to a high enough level, it might produce novel effects that High Magic doesn't do easily.

Because High Magic requires taking all eight Winds and braiding them together properly, it can't just use one or two and create an unusual effect through a serial mechanism. Windherding can, because it doesn't require the Winds to mix, merely interact in an unusual fashion.
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Not sure why you're saying this but well one we've never seen high magic in quest and two most of the descriptions describe it as a two or more winds of magic rather than always being all eight winds.
 
kingreaper said:
But if we just leave it lie because all we know it will do is make awesome, previously impossible, magic items and allow us to train others to do the same* - well, I'll be sad. One of the most awesome unique powers of Mathilde and it's forever dismissed because step one isn't immediately worldshaking, it only significantly improves the knowledge and capabilities of the colleges, and because we haven't taken a single step it doesn't get the benefit of "we've left it fallow for a while, we should get back to it" like AV does.
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Just 'cause something's unique or "awesome" doesn't mean it's necessarily worth doing. We have way more things to do than AP to do them with, always have, always will, so I'm not super inclined to spend them on miscellaneous shinies without an idea of why. Like, leaving aside the high magic thing 'cause I think you're just way more optimistic than I am on the "maybes" there & we're not likely to reach agreement without more data, do you have a more grounded idea for something actually useful to achieve via windherder? All the enchantment/spell combinations I've seen proposed thus far have felt a lot more like they started from "we have windherder, what can we do with it" than "here's an actual problem, the solution involves windherding."
 
Alectai said:
I do feel that while Windherding probably can't replicate High Magic--taken to a high enough level, it might produce novel effects that High Magic doesn't do easily.

Because High Magic requires taking all eight Winds and braiding them together properly, it can't just use one or two and create an unusual effect through a serial mechanism. Windherding can, because it doesn't require the Winds to mix, merely interact in an unusual fashion.
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I think High Magic is 'Multiple Winds in harmony', but not necessarily all of them, or in equal measure.

That said, I am hopeful that developed wind-herding will be a worthy alternative with it's own advantages (maybe greater stability because you don't have a delicate balance, and certainly having chisel-, hammer- and scissorhands working together).
Though I'm curious what the elves have on this. Every elf after all can do windherding on their own, and if you can with 'a craftsman uses the appropriate tool', combining enchantments from mutiple winds just makes sense. The existance of High Magic could hinder ('Oh, just do it properly and use Qhaysh') or help (it's seen as a perperatory step).
 
My reasons for wanting to do Windherder, at least eventually, is that we spent one of our very hard won and rare Trait upgrades at the end of an arc to pick it up. We have yet to use it. That is a goddamn shame and definitely a waste, and we should eventually get around to it and explore it, because it is something unique. We can find uses once we actually start seeing its limitations and how it works exactly.

EDIT: To be clear, I want to do AV this turn more, but I wouldn't be opposed to getting on Windherder relatively soon.
 
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This sounds weird, but I'm not so much the AV shoutman, as I'm just trying to finish something we have started.

and I don't mean that in 'completely finish the tech tree', I mean that in the 'things we wanted to look at from the beginning'.

how does AV interact with Divine, Runes, Magic, and enchantments. and is there a practical aplaction

we got the practical level on Runes, and we are near seeing if there is a practical for enchantments, and have some expected results for Magic (powerstone+AV = Caticlsem spell fuel/or just boom)

its why I've been trying to get Sword style in the plans as well, even if I've always been 'meh' about it. because its two actions away now.

if when we got to the practical test on those four areas done (success or failed): I'm wanting to move on, even if 7 new paths are opened up.
 
Wiadi said:
I think you're just way more optimistic than I am on the "maybes" there & we're not likely to reach agreement without more data, do you have a more grounded idea for something actually useful to achieve via windherder? All the enchantment/spell combinations I've seen proposed thus far have felt a lot more like they started from "we have windherder, what can we do with it" than "here's an actual problem, the solution involves windherding."
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We can make better armour for ourself - when making our new mage armour one of the options was making it significantly more protective by windherding. But that was largely argued against because we don't have enough experience windherding to be certain we could do it and we were on a timecrunch.

We could make a significant difference in the Sylvanian pacification - The Dammerlichtreiter's Thurible is actually really powerful when you're walking through undead-infested country.

There are also a lot of more powerful effects, ones that need more than one Fiendishly Complex+ spell and/or two non-ulgu winds - things like a version of Regrowth that actually cures disease and poison too - but they aren't on the table as the first attempt.
 
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also, frankly, I have no sympathy for the people that are mad that the EIC is not doing more interesting spy stuff, while always voting for the non-spy/economic actions on it.

even this turn people decided that building a blackpowder factory, instead of planting more spys, building a villain base for the huchlander, or spreading the net by talking to Roswita or Julia.

that's our fault, not EIC or Boney.
 
I'm personally most interested in the Powerstones AV action, both for what we've theorised to get (Qhaysh powerstones, which incidentally sound pretty much ideal for Waystones) and for investigating phases of magic (i.e. solid, liquid and gas). Deep looks at the way magic works on a fundamental level are absolutely my jam, and are the sort of thing that really important insights are built off of.

kingreaper said:
We can make better armour for ourself - when making our new mage armour one of the options was making it significantly more protective by windherding. But that was largely argued against because we don't have enough experience windherding to be certain we could do it.
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I don't remember anything for improving defensibility except for the Chamon spell to summon orbs of metal, which mostly seem like they'd get in the way if we can't manually control them ourself. Was there something better I missed?

I did want to add self-cleaning, to be able to maintain our unruffled demeanour in any situation, but figured it could wait for silk robes.

Jyn Ryvia said:
also, frankly, I have no sympathy for the people that are mad that the EIC is not doing more interesting spy stuff, while always voting for the non-spy/economic actions on it.

even this turn people decided that building a blackpowder factory, instead of planting more spys, building a villain base for the huchlander, or spreading the net by talking to Roswita or Julia.

that's our fault, not EIC or Boney.
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I totally agree, but given that we aren't using it right I'd rather just drop manual control of it entirely.
 
kingreaper said:
We can make better armour for ourself - when making our new mage armour one of the options was making it significantly more protective by windherding. But that was largely argued against because we don't have enough experience windherding to be certain we could do it and we were on a timecrunch.
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the opposite: the thread picked the option that was harder to get right because people were convinced they could turn the active effect of our mastery into a passive one.

but we didn't high roll, so we got the effect, but it was still an active.
 
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