If, for example, we get Biosphere + automated factories + we look into the planet, we may find 'Hey, a solution to this problem would require X things, which is way more than we're willing to spend time here'. If we have those things, we can just say 'alright, built the factories, put the order in and we'll be back here in a few decades/a century and then all the things will be done for us'. And it gives us an option beyond 'stay stuck here' or 'don't work on the problem'
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
Come to think of it, isn't the solution to this whole thing as simple as massively reoxygenating the water, thus also massively increasing the pace of the reaction, as the availability of oxygen seems to be the sole rate limiting step here? We could clean this place up in very short order that way, without setting 90% the planet on fire like someone else seemed to propose. Of course, masks probably wouldn't be enough in either case.
@OP, any ideas on ballpark population here? Given the low pop, nothing to say we can't get them in a void hab, or a proverbial glass dome with a seperate air supply while we fix things. For some reason I think either solution will go further than a mere mask can solve.
Who knows how many thousands of RP we'd need to sink into just it to maybe get unreliable communications that can be fucked with by daemons and shit without even more research?
No, it's a pie in the sky, it sounds good, but requirements insane amounts of investment for something uncertain when we can right now do that with automated manufactories, and once that's done (if), there will be another, likely AI or some other pie in the sky people will flock to. And like usual, we get nothing else done. It's like some rennaisance guy trying to make the Internet before having a large scale powergrid or computers, you're missing the point and have skewed priorities.
Point taken.
Wayy too expensive and the navigator is really, really not important at all. Like, functionally, there's nothing it can do that more Abacus research can't, and that isn't dependent on an unreliable person. That said +1 hero unit is useful. Our biology tech is crap, so the techs are like 200 in and of itself, 400 more if we ever want more. It's not on a timer.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Probably less than one across all prereqs combined, particularly since we have a crit tech that discounts everything and gives us a tech from far down the tree without its prereqs right there.
The hyperbolic assumptions you've made about RP costs in general are ridiculous, for that matter. Everyone speculates, but could you keep yours more grounded, please? Making up big numbers really does not help any of your cases.
...@Neablis, I can't be the only person who remembers you saying this isn't right. Could you set things straight about navigators versus abacus tech? And perhaps even if the two synergize.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm actually down with spending two turns here so we can deep dive the governors villa if everyone would be cool with that? Mini adventure sounds fun. Plus it will give us more time to finish up better warp stuff for Denva and fix our psykic tripwires while we're doing that.
Definitely want focus on Cia, we can give her gear and things if she needs other abilities.
Definitely want focus on Cia, we can give her gear and things if she needs other abilities.
avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
I actually really like this plan, I really want to help the natives out more substantially. Unlike the various space stations in the other system, this here is a humanitarian crisis we can quite feasibly whack at and deal with in a realistic timeframe (ie 1 or 2 turns).
Going to make my own variant of this plan:
[] Plan: Vacation in Ocean Hell, Stank Free Humanitarian Edition
-[] FREE: Database: Look in genetics database for possible organisms that might eat the seaweed. If we can grow some, and said organisms are eatable and not too hostile/dangerous, the natives will have another food source beyond seaweed, and another trade good for offworld once the organism population grows on its own enough. Consideration is to be made as much as possible to the native ecology of this world, but obviously whatever lives heres isn't eating the seaweed or enough of it, so the niche seems open for us to plop something in.
-[] Explore: Underwater palace, Cia, Victan, Green-haired Avatar, all humanized light and heavy bots.
-[] Orders: After harvesting as much seaweed as we can to supplement our onboard foodstuffs, use the Spark and her fighters to attack and burn the current overabundance of seaweed mats. Carefully. Start on the outermost peripheries away from settlements or fishing zones, work your way inwards.
-[] Construction (530 BP), all gifts for Stankberg
--[] Trade Goods (100 BP)
--[] Manned Manufactory x2 (200 BP)
--[] Spaceport (100 BP)
--[] Repair Harvesting Capacity (130 BP)
-[] Research (200 + 95 RP)
--[] Basic Active Stealth (34 RP)
--[] How to Build a Biosphere (100 RP)
--[] Demonology (55+95/150 RP) (Anexa)
--[] Advanced Materials (11/250 RP)
-[] Anexa active Action: Research
-[] Victan passive action: Diplomacy with Stankberg.
-- Let them know we're in orbit, we're offering humanitarian aid and trading opportunities, and a potential solution to the Stank (if our efforts work out). Finding out about where to build potential new infrastructure to aid the population is needed so we don't piss off the locals.
-- Let them know about Denva, a nearby democratic power that's developing their own industrial capacity, they might want to make friends with them to trade the seaweed for things they need.
-[] Passive Psyker improvement
-[] [Quorath] 30 BP Trade Goods
-[] [Cia] Focus
***
First time I've modified a plan to make my own on this Quest, let me know if this might work.
EDIT: Swapped out In Vitro for How To Build A Biosphere. Very critical for this world, and damn useful for any other potential world we run into (and considering we're explorers...).
Last edited:
-[] Basic Automated Manufactories (150 RP)
-[] How to Build a Biosphere (100 RP)
-[] Abacus Manufacturing (100 RP)
-[] Efficient Equipment Distribution (100 RP)
-[] Miniaturized antigrav (50 RP)
Research-wise, for this turn's priorities in order of priority, imo. Could spend 2 actions on R&D, 1 on construction (masks, air filters, a bubble?). Or 1 R&D, 1 deal with the proverbial kudzu, and 1 construction is probably better. Either way, exploring seems to be foolhardy this turn if we want to make any real impact, or react to bad rolls.
-[] How to Build a Biosphere (100 RP)
-[] Abacus Manufacturing (100 RP)
-[] Efficient Equipment Distribution (100 RP)
-[] Miniaturized antigrav (50 RP)
Research-wise, for this turn's priorities in order of priority, imo. Could spend 2 actions on R&D, 1 on construction (masks, air filters, a bubble?). Or 1 R&D, 1 deal with the proverbial kudzu, and 1 construction is probably better. Either way, exploring seems to be foolhardy this turn if we want to make any real impact, or react to bad rolls.
That would be helpful, I always saw Abaci as better, more reliable, but less powerful non-fleshy replacements (certainty of steel etc.) to Navigators.
Not spending 2 turns would be hella irresponsible, to be frank. We aren't in a race here. I'm up to 3 even.
Last edited:
Okay, first of all? It seems absurd to me to suggest we won't be able to build daughter AIs. We don't know exactly how many RP in, to be sure. And even more absurd for you to make up a price for it.
Also, frankly, arguing we shouldn't go deep in tech trees seems completely misguided. We're not going to finish things. Techs being low in the tree does not mean that they're more essential than ones behind a thousand or so RP we've already invested, or a few hundred we haven't either.
You seem to be making assumptions about what we're doing immediately? And I don't know what.
Heavy void shields: literally useless until we are designing new ships or looking for techs behind it, I think. Also, solves literally zero problems we've had in the game to date - nothing has ever knocked down our void shields. Desirable if we're going to build any cruiser+ warships when we stop moving though.
Automated Manufactories: Barely useful for anything, sadly. Maybe useful for Denva. For Vita, the inflexibility means they're a questionable thing to put in a flagship slot and the CP dependency means deploying them anywhere else has the same problems of needing OMC operators as generalist manufactories do. I'm interested, because stuff behind it may be great, but this tech seems more exploratory than practical.
MSSM: As noted, does nothing for us until we build factory ships. The flagship manufactory setup doesn't benefit. Also, not as good at what it does as LSVM, though great to add on after LSVM when relevant.
Abacus techs: As you say, we want Denva to have those. However, that means we don't need them right now unless you think our action this turn will go back to Denva. Which I don't think it will, between looting and trying to do some kind of Stank intervention I expect we'll be here 2 turns, not just 1. (I hope we focus enough to not need 3, though, this seems like a place we could set up for a significant amount of success faster than that.)
Cramming techs: Great, but mostly pays off when we get new designs and/or lots of production capacity. That said, we're almost done with the big repair so we could start cramming down flagship stuff. However, we probably won't have time to get a lot of it done before Denva.
Advanced Materials: Why do you think it's necessary to upship? Was that written somewhere? Also, is upshipping a current goal vs building supporting ships? I'm sure this tech has value, but you're not selling it.
Stealth stuff: 175 total RP isn't really dirt cheap, and shouldn't you indicate why it's urgent? Probably does give us cool stuff though, no contest there.
Antigrav: I'm fairly in favor, but there's lots of 50 point techs you're not promoting, and what do you want us to do with drones? (Combo this with stealth techs for infiltrator units we can shoot into places like Ascalon from space for close investigation maybe...)
CNI: It is very cheap, but seems extremely narrow utility too? Cia might get a little out of it, but she's the only organic we want in combat at present. I certainly don't hate this tech, but I see no reason it belongs at the front of the queue.
Don't dispute the biosphere thing is a must to hack the planet. I'd probably go for it, even though its description implies stuff we'd need to babysit or detach more Cogitare for, for a significant period, to deliver results. Maybe we'd be able to move faster here due to the convenient circumstances, either with that or a fast follow tech though.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
Empathy at range. 200 (Half of the prereq for basic warp-based FTL communication)
Yelling into the warp 175 (Half of the prereq for basic warp-based FTL communication)
Alternative Shield Meanings 150 (In order to unlock Yelling into the Warp.)
So 525 in order to unlock it. Then at most 600 (likely just 200) RP in order to get it fully.
Likely 725 (Max 1125) RP in total for (basic) warp comms.
Last edited:
- Location
- Boston
Just a reminder that there is a chance of combat at the palace, might not want to send Victan along. He can easily analyze any intel we get back at the ship
It seems pretty likely they don't have the skill set for operating our manned manufactories, to me? We've specifically clarified that those require technical training to run, not raw muscle.
Maybe if we started teaching them this turn we could get them ready to run them by the time we leave.
Unless they're actually quite tech-savvy and just not using combustion because the conditions are bad for it. My impression, though, was they're largely at a muscle-powered tech level.
Now, that's a bad take. It's arguably one of our most powerful tech branches. To reiterate:
It's basically Von-Neumanning our shit, and it means we don't treat Denva, or our resident population like a slave caste, wherein any time we want to build anything we can hijack half of their economy. That's how you build resentment.
Only 200 RP seems too low, and you're also neglecting that basic warp comms won't be enough, since there's no way it'd be secure nor reliable. Furthermore that's assuming flawless rolling, whebneven one failure can massively change that, or a critfail making it massively harder to acquire.
Last edited:
Couldn't the Automated Facotries be used to build breathing aparatuses? And if we build them on the surface we could basicaly say 'hey, just put raw materials in, and finished masks will come out' and thus guarantee that, while the problem isn't solved, at least the population can survive and perhaps even flourish?
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
That is fair, but Anexa has the Warp speciality so a critfail is unlikely as long as she works on it.
Last edited:
avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
Oh, and another reason to research Advanced Materials:
Materials as strong as steel, yet as light as foam. And there's LOTS more locked behind that. I imagine Vita would find that useful, not to mention Denva and any other friendly world we run into.
Machine learning and 3D printing yield steel-strong, foam-light materials
Researchers at the University of Toronto's Faculty of Applied Science & Engineering have used machine learning to design nano-architected materials that have the strength of carbon steel but the lightness of Styrofoam.
phys.org
Materials as strong as steel, yet as light as foam. And there's LOTS more locked behind that. I imagine Vita would find that useful, not to mention Denva and any other friendly world we run into.
So here's a plan per my thoughts last night.
[] Plan: Mercantilism
-[] Research 2x (400 + 75 + 20)
--[] Psychic Shielding Reliability (100 RP)
--[] Reliable Gellar Fields (300 RP)
---[] Anexa assist
--[] Abacus Manufacturing (95 / 100 RP)
-[] Diplomacy: Introduce yourself to the natives and offer to help them with the stank problem in exchange for basing rights in the system and on the planet.
--[] Victan assist
-[] Construction:
--[] Build 2 Machine Spirit Manufactories on the ground. (240 BP)
--[] Build lots of masks and medical supplies for the locals. (all remaining BP)
-[] Free action: Have dinner on a nice beach with your Crew
The research is mainly finally picking up reliable gellar fields and going most of the way through abacus manufacturing with the idea that we're going to want both of those when we head to Denva soon. Psychic shielding reliability is another necessity. I agree with the people who say they're getting tired of focusing on warp stuff, but I still think this one is a necessity.
The diplomacy is basically an initial offer of, guesstimating, the ~50,000 masks we can make while still having room to build a couple of ground manufactories in exchange for the right to build those manufactories (which will supply more masks) and whatever else we want in the system. I don't expect the locals to do anything but jump at this offer, but I do still feel the need to make it and get their acceptance down officially.
The construction action is a couple of manufactories and then a bunch of masks. I know it might be more efficient to look into biology research with the aim of actually solving the stank, but we already have too many research priorities and they've been living with it for decades at least. There is the issue of someone needing to run the manufactory, but I'm optimistic that the friendly locals will make getting a few Cogitare to sign on for mask production and recruitment duties an easier prospect than it was with the last system.
[] Plan: Mercantilism
-[] Research 2x (400 + 75 + 20)
--[] Psychic Shielding Reliability (100 RP)
--[] Reliable Gellar Fields (300 RP)
---[] Anexa assist
--[] Abacus Manufacturing (95 / 100 RP)
-[] Diplomacy: Introduce yourself to the natives and offer to help them with the stank problem in exchange for basing rights in the system and on the planet.
--[] Victan assist
-[] Construction:
--[] Build 2 Machine Spirit Manufactories on the ground. (240 BP)
--[] Build lots of masks and medical supplies for the locals. (all remaining BP)
-[] Free action: Have dinner on a nice beach with your Crew
The research is mainly finally picking up reliable gellar fields and going most of the way through abacus manufacturing with the idea that we're going to want both of those when we head to Denva soon. Psychic shielding reliability is another necessity. I agree with the people who say they're getting tired of focusing on warp stuff, but I still think this one is a necessity.
The diplomacy is basically an initial offer of, guesstimating, the ~50,000 masks we can make while still having room to build a couple of ground manufactories in exchange for the right to build those manufactories (which will supply more masks) and whatever else we want in the system. I don't expect the locals to do anything but jump at this offer, but I do still feel the need to make it and get their acceptance down officially.
The construction action is a couple of manufactories and then a bunch of masks. I know it might be more efficient to look into biology research with the aim of actually solving the stank, but we already have too many research priorities and they've been living with it for decades at least. There is the issue of someone needing to run the manufactory, but I'm optimistic that the friendly locals will make getting a few Cogitare to sign on for mask production and recruitment duties an easier prospect than it was with the last system.
To be frank, foundational techs are basic and unsexy, but lead to important things and discount everything with a good roll.
I feel like interestellar travel is relatively safe. Don't know if improving Gellar Fields is where I'd want to put 1.5 action worth of research in when there's far more immediately useful things. Heck, we're not likely to Warp out this turn, so it's guaranteed not useful this turn, no?
For Cia, the one problem with focusing on Pyromancy is that she gets stronger, and that's a double edged sword for psykers. I'd be fine with that, but we would need to make sure we're investing in keeping her safe. Helping Cia's Training for a while and getting Improved Pyromantic Understanding would be important to make sure she doesn't fry herself or others on a bad roll.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The hell of it is, there's only one anexa and LOTS of foundational techs on our list right now. We're really stretched, lmao.
You probably already know this, but the foundational tech I'm most concerned about is, of course, Intelligence Coding.
Not aimed at anyone in particular, but I continue to insist that putting it off is penny wise pound foolish, and I think I'm at the point where I'm willing to accept partial progress per turn just to make sure we get there in a reasonable time, because there's always something we could be doing that doesn't cost more than 1 research action to complete.
Last edited:
I mean, I would really rather not give Denva or anyone else unreliable gellar fields. So I consider it a must-have for that reason alone. And I'm planning to head back to Denva at the end of the next turn.
avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
Exactly why we should research it! I find Steel Foam sexy as all heck! Not to mention Organic Superlubricant, or Frictionless Materials...
Last edited:
Now you're not talking about fundamentals, you're talking about diving behind the tech to several next techs of unknown cost. I like the destination, but it's frankly at odds with what you were arguing. If you have a problem with deep-diving, you don't want this. If you just thing BP is a better focus that FTL comms, well, there's an argument there, but not the argument you've been making.
Also, WTF? The manufacturing we already have, operated by Vita (and optionally technician crew) is ours. It's not the basis of somebody else's economy we're hijacking. As for Denva, we bought a boon. Spending the boon we bought isn't, in fact, going to turn out to be a horrible idea that makes us a bad person who everyone hates.
We just don't fail tech rolls, thanks to Vita's extreme tech investment, only critfail them or 'poor success' them.
Again, they require CP, so as soon as we leave they turn into junk.
Unless we get more research, or leave techpriests to operate them. (But techpriests should always be provided at least some flexible production, not just a day job babysitting a mask stamping plant.)
Last edited:
Angle
Release Candidate Enby
- Location
- Colorado, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Theirs/Comrade
That's if we take the entire research chain. We'd also need:
in addition - and that says it reduces CP requirements, not eliminates them, so we'd still need more techs most likely.
Which isn't to say I don't like machine spirits and don't want to go in for more of them! Lets just be realistic about what they can accomplish for any given level of investment.
I'm pretty sure Independent Manufactories isn't the automation follow-up tech that goes toward letting them operate without us. I thought it might be when I saw the name, but that's not what it says it does. We'd presumably need to do the Basic Automated tech before we can see the tech we'd need.
Last edited: