- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No humanitarian aid for the chaos cults. Containment yes, aid no. If you won't be complicit in committing atrocities, then I won't be complicit in aiding others who will go on to commit further atrocities.
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
Do you think the stations under Imperial control aren't committing atrocities? Do you think they're not putting babies in the incinerator for having a mutation, or Psykers for awakening to their powers?
That said, I know I'm in a minority position. If the best I can get is 'don't do anything with 'em' I'll take it.
JuliusClonkus
Scatterbrained Speculator
- Location
- Federal Reichspublic of Karlsland
Okay, so. Colchis existed to sneak a metaphysical time bomb into the nascent Imperium. Not devolving into a self-cannibalizing orgy of death was beneficial in the long term.
Any number of cults do the same shit, feigning beneign behavior until they're in a position to make a play for power.
Bongo, our own chaos shitheap, narratively managed to pull the wool over Vita's eyes twice now and only intermittent well-warranted paranoia kept her safe despite it all.
There's exactly zero reason to trust that hypothetical "stable" Chaotic societies will not devolve into the usual mask-off monstrosities.
I mean, this place is an ongoing mass casualty event - I don't think all those dead stations died at the same time, and the ship is a mobile war.
The trouble is Vita doesn't have a clear solution with or without getting her hands bloody.
Oh hey, here's a notion, though not one we're well positioned to perform right now. How many people are even still here? I bet we could take them someplace else. Maybe someplace with air that doesn't have to come out of decaying centuries-old machines.
Forced relocation has advantages over the other horrible options.
Of course, we don't currently have a spare habitable planet, but that'll probably change sooner or later.
- Location
- colombia
i could argue pages,but it boils down to your take being simply wrong
i honestly belief the exact opposite of everything you just said
is very much as "slow,slow,then all at once" scenario
we arrived here,and we dont have anti-scrying defense,that is enough to paint a target on the system to make answering sacrifices more attractive
and time still plays into a cult advantage,it turns into gradual but accelerating climb up of attrocities and power concentration
over the course of decades (how long turn last),the idea nothing will happen strikes me as absurd
chaos tactical advantage is bringing the AI down to try play savior with half cooked security measures or stay there and eventually react critical mass at wich point recently summoned "HYPER BONGO" slaps vita around
either blow the thing,or commit to going deep on anti-chaos,no half cooked measures
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- Location
- Earth
I am not seeing the reason for Complex Genetic Enhancement?
We do have much higher priorities. Machine spirit psychic shields e.g.
Not sure I want to sit around for 5 year watching the situation get worse either.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I mean, we don't even know enough to know if we should start doing anything, which is what my action is meant to learn, are we just supposed to charge in blind or something?
Complex Genetic Enhancement is to work towards getting Navigator Genetics, which is important to prevent our Navibean from transforming into a squid.
Complex Genetic Enhancement is to work towards getting Navigator Genetics, which is important to prevent our Navibean from transforming into a squid.
- Location
- Earth
Even Imperials rate much higher to save on my list than chaos cultists.
Even imperials can be taught better. As long as we have the superior fire power, which we do in this system.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
And you're saying a cursory look has already identified literally everyone in the system?
- Location
- Earth
I doubt it, which is why I am not uplifting anyone in my proposed plan, but am also looking.
While kicking in some of the chaos stations.
Those need kicking anyway.
That alleges a level of conspiratorial behavior that is not possible for humans. Daemons can lie in wait for centuries, perfectly crafting lies while searching for any cracks in one's defenses, but cultists cannot.
Chaos is a downward spiral, but that does not mean anyone who's ever seen a daemon or sworn by the name of a Ruinous Power is an instantaneous suborned time bomb. In fact, that's not really how Chaos cultists act at all. They're free-willed. Every step into the dark is voluntary. Do daemons want to put their fingers on the scale? Of course they do.
But until one reaches spawndom or daemonhood, they remain a person with their own soul and own mind, able to make choices. There are even canonical instances of Chaos Astartes turning away. Hell, the entire conceit of the Alpha Legion is that you can play these games back at Chaos.
Furthermore, there is no grand plan from Chaos. Not even from the Ruinous Powers themselves, and sure as shit not from individual daemons or cultists. It's the ultimate shambolic nightmare, as is only appropriate for such a force. They are flat-out doing whatever.
Consider also societies like Q'Sal, which would come off as utopian at a glance. They're continuously feeding blood and souls to daemons in exchange for all those blessings, but the fact remains that daemons can be mercenary like that. Some play the long game, some aren't playing a game at all, just being what they are.
Chaos will choose a strategy to respond to however we treat it, including blunt refusal. You think they haven't heard that one before?
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Fine, let me clarify: I won't be complicit in sending more souls directly to the big 4.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I mean, I'd argue that "no, it really isn't, you see a Chaos Glyph and you just suddenly become a cultist" is the norm, "Every step is by your own choice" is generally only for people who have non-trivial willpower, and as we keep seeing, even that is questionable (Since they just remove your ability to make other choices with their mere presence, as we keep seeing with Cain until Jurgen walks in to cancel it).
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Good ole Jurgen. Man could solo a primarch if he had his melta on him.
Actually there's a thought: if we just parked a blank next to our AI core, would that work to provide shielding?
So I'm a bit worried about this, because Bongo at the very same time proved that scrapcode can punch through barriers that aren't fully broken down. And that Vita's narration can be unreliable on this.
Vita's probably okay? But I'm more inclined to worry about the personal(ity) defense.
The budget version (still a 200 RP tech) might be the triple-nesting. So long as we have a layer that wasn't damaged we can be pretty sure it didn't leak...
- Location
- Milky Way
[] Plan: More Info and better Anti-Chaos-Tech
-[] Explore:
--[] Explore System look for other groups. Collect Information to Contain/Eliminate Chaos Groups. Collect Info about Imperials.
-[] Research x3 (600 + 112 Anexa RP)
--[] Basic Cognition Filter (138+112=250/250 RP)
---[] 112 Anexa RP
--[] Empathy At Range (200/200 RP)
--[] Psychic Encryption (150/150 RP)
--[] Psychic tripwires (50/50 RP)
--[] Intelligence Coding (62/400 RP)
Plan is to get more Info to then deal with Chaos and Imperials in the System.
Basic Cognition Filter and Psychic tripwires is to help prevent chaos corruption.
Psychic Encryption to prevent Warp based Espionage.
Empathy At Range for better Sensor and to get FTL Communication.
Intelligence Coding we will need it at some Point and it also leads to more protections from Chaos.
-[] Explore:
--[] Explore System look for other groups. Collect Information to Contain/Eliminate Chaos Groups. Collect Info about Imperials.
-[] Research x3 (600 + 112 Anexa RP)
--[] Basic Cognition Filter (138+112=250/250 RP)
---[] 112 Anexa RP
--[] Empathy At Range (200/200 RP)
--[] Psychic Encryption (150/150 RP)
--[] Psychic tripwires (50/50 RP)
--[] Intelligence Coding (62/400 RP)
Plan is to get more Info to then deal with Chaos and Imperials in the System.
Basic Cognition Filter and Psychic tripwires is to help prevent chaos corruption.
Psychic Encryption to prevent Warp based Espionage.
Empathy At Range for better Sensor and to get FTL Communication.
Intelligence Coding we will need it at some Point and it also leads to more protections from Chaos.
We really need to get daemonology done Bongo keeps causing problems and we can easily solve it by doing the tech and throwing Bongo into the sun once and for all.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
I will be not satisfied with throwing Bongo away so that he can pop up again somewhere sooner or later, but now free. No, I want for either us to discover a method to use technological means to True Kill daemons, or have Cia reach that point with Pyromancy. It has also the benefit of figuring out how to True Kill daemons in the future too, which's effectiveness I think will be harder to be certain about without our unwilling test-subject.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Again, I hope that demons never become a "solved" problem. That said, I'm pretty sure we can get to a place that is "good enough".
- Location
- colombia
neat,may you change intelligence coding for personality checks for vita?
i think chiping away the "check you aint chaos compromised" botton is important if we going for a pure anti-chaos plan
but besides that i wholly agree with this plan
we need eyes on the issue
so cognition filter,empathy at range and tripwires give us a way to actually gauge corruption
- Location
- Earth
Can't do personality checks until intelligence coding is done.
- Location
- colombia
oh then is perfect for me then
Staff Notice - Spaghetti Posting
Well, that went great.
Y'all gotta remember that we'd be destroying Bongo's binding, not Bongo itself. This is a bit like being beaten by someone who's handcuffed, so you break their handcuffs.
Seems to me like there is little point to trying to help these folk at this point in time, and going "Exterminate!" would probably cause issues—yes, we've got them heavily outgunned, but anyone who knows anything about cults can tell you violent approaches will end on tragedy, and where a real world cult might pull out weapons or commit mass suicide, a Chaos Cult might start summoning things. Things we're not ready to kill right now.
That said, I do want to get Encryption soon.
Cheap Research List update!
Total 1175 RP, not counting current progress. If we go for just the stealth and machine spirit ones, that's 400 minus current progress. Should be enough in two actions to get these plus Faith is My Shield and Psychic Tripwires!
Y'all gotta remember that we'd be destroying Bongo's binding, not Bongo itself. This is a bit like being beaten by someone who's handcuffed, so you break their handcuffs.
Or for us. We've given Denva enough.
No plan that involves Cia or Victan interacting with people likely to be corrupted is a starter before we get some cognition filters online. We haven't even told them the name of the Chaos Gods out of a desire to keep them safe. And before anyone says something about paranoia, that wasn't even a vote. Vita chose to do it after reading some restricted files on the Archenemy.
The way you say it, it makes it sound like we're going to spend ten turns away.
Fact is, if they haven't summoned any demons in the centuries they've been here, they're unlikely to do so in the next couple of decades. And if they are on the brink of doing it then attacking them may give them the motivation (or the attention from Chaos) needed to do it.
Fact is, if they haven't summoned any demons in the centuries they've been here, they're unlikely to do so in the next couple of decades. And if they are on the brink of doing it then attacking them may give them the motivation (or the attention from Chaos) needed to do it.
Neablis has said we're not meant to be able to go deep into every branch of the tech tree. It was designed to be too wide for that. You should also keep in mind that we left Denva doing some research for us, and that we are a Woman of Stone, not Steel.
It is something that takes root in mind and body, cannot be rooted out with any methods we have or are likely to discover soon, and spreads via word of mouth. Something that enables one to cause untold harm, given time and access to materials.
So we have no hope of curing/restoring people within able time, and any form of quarantining that might be effective in the long run would necessarily involve impeding all outside communication; taking away means to harm others or the self, writing symbols, or otherwise performing rituals; and removing all worldly possessions.
That means we're either killing people or sticking them in a nightmare mix of concentration camp and early 20th century mental hospice.
You are making a logic error. Necessary and sufficient are not synonyms. And we know for a fact that even knowing the names of the Four will draw attention. Why should their sign be any different?
We deal with Chaos in some capacity whenever we go into the Warp... but also, we will have to deal with this place at some point. We also have the experience of reading the names of the Four from a file and that being enough to bring damage onto our shields.
Folks, please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, from where we stand, Chaos is not like a normal sickness, which we can cure with medicines, or an ideology, where separation from leaders and de-programming can help people recover.
It is something that takes root in mind and body, cannot be rooted out with any methods we have or are likely to discover soon, and spreads via word of mouth. Something that enables one to cause untold harm, given time and access to materials.
So we have no hope of curing/restoring people within able time, and any form of quarantining that might be effective in the long run would necessarily involve impeding all outside communication; taking away means to harm others or the self, writing symbols, or otherwise performing rituals; and removing all worldly possessions.
That means we're either killing people or sticking them in a nightmare mix of concentration camp and early 20th century mental hospice.
Valid concern. Uplifting them may not be viable at the moment.
This is well and good as an aspiration, but we do not have the means to make it happen any time soon. And we can leave the place to its own devices for a while, but it will not keep forever. And as of now we don't have the means to know how close it is to boiling over.
What do you mean "clear it"? Kill those who oppose us within it?
I do't think we should spend RP on Agriculture before we know there's anyone who could use it here. And anyway meianmaru's argument against placing complex tech here still applies.
The ship doesn't seem to bring anything to the stations anymore. It is controlled by its own set of factions which are hostile to the station factions.
They're still dying out. Just slowly. They need tech for temperature insulation, food, and fresh air. Probably artificial gravity, as well.
Seems to me like there is little point to trying to help these folk at this point in time, and going "Exterminate!" would probably cause issues—yes, we've got them heavily outgunned, but anyone who knows anything about cults can tell you violent approaches will end on tragedy, and where a real world cult might pull out weapons or commit mass suicide, a Chaos Cult might start summoning things. Things we're not ready to kill right now.
Honestly, unless we're staying here, not that much. And I don't think we want to stay here.
This kind of metagaming reasoning doesn't make much sense; a nat 1 was going to have Bongo screw us up somehow. If we had Encryption, it would be something else.
That said, I do want to get Encryption soon.
Do we need to rush the Navigator already? I get going for one of the techs, but we don't need to be rushing into it yet with a couple more turns of exploration to go.
This is true, though I would imagine we got a lot, and every turn we stay here is a turn where something Chaotic could notice us. Then again, repairs are ongoing...
Cheap Research List update!
- Ship Design
- General Design
- Stealth
- Robotics
- Psychic Shielding
- The Warp
- Psytech
- Physics
- Machine Spirits
- Biology
- Cybernetics
Total 1175 RP, not counting current progress. If we go for just the stealth and machine spirit ones, that's 400 minus current progress. Should be enough in two actions to get these plus Faith is My Shield and Psychic Tripwires!
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MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
The short of it. Chaos is a magical affliction and a cognitohazzard. Knowledge of it on 40K specially (they arent as wanked in fantasy) will induce passive corruption that ear on One's soul. Paranoia says Vita have no particular soul health to avoid falling.
It's a disease on a more macro scale with entire sepcies being a macro organism, A person, a soul on this case is just a cell not the complex organism.
Do with this information what you may.
My personal take is eventually on the high end of psy tech (like eldar tier) or mundane supertech (Necron tier) we could do something about it but we are very not there yet. Immunity the fhaos corruption on demand it one of the big shinny on this scenario.
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