Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

[Xon]

Then let us treat it as an epidemic. Like a civilized, humane person treats a contagion. Quarantine, triage, humanitarian aid, research, possible treatment or cure or failing that, palliative care.

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One thing about infectious chaos corruption is you need to move any victims away from everything they where near before and then ensure they don't bring anything with them. No nicknacks, not family relics, no clothes, etc.

Then burn/meltdown the entire habitat they where living in, and dispose of it somewhere people aren't going to get near for a few decades/centuries.

The goal here is to give Cia experience fighting in her new armour, and to test the new psychic shielding developed against Chaos (assuming there are any daemons or psykers here that they'd be needed against).

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This is actually quite a useful goal, as introduction to fighting active chaos cults is something we need beyond hordes of single use robots

 

[Lord4StarCommand]

My opinion is we just research on Anti-Chaos tech, get the materials needed from the asteroids, make a kit-colony for non-Chaos factions just enough to surviver, cut off the constant bridge connecting to prevent the bloodshed for the forseeable future, have Cia test against any violtile Chaosy shit and then leave.

 

[Asheram]

One thing about infectious chaos corruption is you need to move any victims away from everything they where near before and then ensure they don't bring anything with them. No nicknacks, not family relics, no clothes, etc.

Then burn/meltdown the entire habitat they where living in, and dispose of it somewhere people aren't going to get near for a few decades/centuries.

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And this only relates to those unknowing as chaos itself is a cognitoazard.

 

[Cookiesndip]

We can't keep burning all our research on anti-chaos when we haven't even touched huge swaths of the tech tree. Like, we've focused on it for practically every single turn post-unification thus far,same with stealth. Manufacturing, materials, and weaponry have been left by the wayside for the most part.

We aren't even handling Chaos aside from Bongo, which still isn't a problem. Remember, the only reason our core took damage is because we lost the 1/4th modifier for the turn. Still, I know everyone will instead of being sensible, will panic and spend 3 turns just researching anti-chaos =/.

 

[Shogeton]

Obviously, Chaos is dangerous. It's gonna be far more involved than just getting Imperials weaned off the fash-juice.

But damn it, if we can't fucking stick it to the Four and the Throne Guy all by eventually redeeming a bunch of X'th generation Chaos cultists in the Quest where all ingredients are present for us, then we're wasting some good Power Fantasy material.

Again... we have never butchered a bunch of civilians before. Do we really want to break that streak on a bunch of people that are, on a large scale, mostly a threat to themselves?

 

[meianmaru]

Then let us treat it as an epidemic. Like a civilized, humane person treats a contagion. Quarantine, triage, humanitarian aid, research, possible treatment or cure or failing that, palliative care. And it seems like these Chaos cultists are mostly quarantined already. To kill thousands of men, women and children because 'Chaos bad' even if they are no threat at all to us, don't even know we exist would suggest Vita is far more indifferent to human lives than I'd like her to be.

If we were an Imperial character, obviously, even the most iconoclast of Inquisitors would probably blow them up. But we're not of the Imperium. We can and will do better than them.

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Too much effort for something, very unfortunately, small on the galactic scale. I don't want to make Vita someone who gets bogged down on the suffering of everyone she ever comes across. As it was pointed out to us:

There's so much suffering in this galaxy already. If I start taking responsibility for the plight of anybody I run into, then it'll crush me, and prevent me from doing everything I can to actually force the kind of long-lasting change that matters.

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So I'm more towards of a more pragmatic and so brutal approach of killing those infected by the Chaos. And at the same time, offering those not infected minimal aid needed to stabilize them and to stop them from sliding towards worshipping the Chaos Gods in desperation. Because Chaos is a disease that at least currently, we do have to burn out rather than cure.

Of course, we could just let them duke it out and leave. But if we are going to do something, I think we will have to either get our hands dirty or be stuck here for a very long time trying to fix towards reversing existing corruption from the Chaos.

 

[Cookiesndip]

I don't like the precedent of us accepting that the proper resolution for 'Chaos infestation' is 'kill them all'. Obviously, right now, it's just a few wretched people.

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But that is the correct reaction to Chaos. Burn it out, ensure it cannot spread. No seriously, there's no way for us to filter cultists and non-cultists, or remove contamination, or somehow flip chaos-worshippers that have committed crimes against humanity, usually by their own will (why would we bother, no seriously, surely there are others more deserving of our help?). This is 40k, 21st century highminded morality has no place here. Being nice and generous to Denva or other people, uplifting and improving living conditions such is all well and good, but that must be grounded in a bed of pragmaticism and realism about the state of the galaxy and our foes. To do otherwise is foolhardy and naive, if not destructive to our own cause in and of itself.

No seriously, the only thing worse than allowing Chaos to get ahold of Denva because we decided to help these people, is a genestealer cult taking it over. The high standard of living and psychic shielding means it's far less vulnerable to the former, but it could still happen, and we'd have to go after it with extreme prejudice - the bad apple spoils the bunch and all. Like, imagine saying the same with a Genestealer cult 'but yeah, they're just heavily mutated, and some are probably not Tyranid!', I'd rather kill hundreds of millions of innocents purging them, than potentially leave even one alive to restart the whole thing a decade down the line. That fate is far better than the Tyranids subverting and taking over the entire planet because we couldn't stomach doing our job as a leader.

This is 40k, not Mass Effect or Star Wars. Stop taking the primary antagonists of this universe so lightly.

 

[Asheram]

Again... we have never butchered a bunch of civilians before. Do we really want to break that streak on a bunch of people that are, on a large scale, mostly a threat to themselves?

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You're not getting it. If they've got the chaos star on their hull then they're not civilians, they're actively engaging with chaos. I'm willing to bet that they're tattooing or branding the chaos star on their fucking newborn just to have them get the Dark Gods blessing, because that's what it takes to survive on a space station with no influx of air, food, or materials for 200 years.

Edit: What you don't seem to get is that if there's chaos corruption in a person there there's no way back. Not that we know of anyhow.

 

[Shogeton]

You're not getting it. If they've got the chaos star on their hull then they're not civilians, they're actively engaging with chaos. I'm willing to bet that they're tattooing or branding the chaos star on their fucking newborn just to have them get the Dark Gods blessing, because that's what it takes to survive on a space station with no influx of air, food, or materials for 200 years.

Edit: What you don't seem to get is that if there's chaos corruption there there's no way back. Not that we know of anyhow.

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'now that we know of?' Well then let's not just assume that we know everything. If there's anything the Chaos God would hate is us finding out that there is actually a way back. Or at least a way to stop the progress.

And a civilian with a Chaos star tattooed on them is still a civilian. A civilian you wouldn't want want to let waltz into another world because, yeah, cognitohazard, but still a civilian. A human life with worth to it.

Chaos is not to be held in contempt. It is dangerous. But one of the beautiful things about this thread is that it invites us to defy all the 'Well, that's just the way it is' that a normal 40K story has to take. And I would find it a shame if we'd let ourselves just accept that we'll have to kill billions of people that just were born on the wrong planet or state station, without even TRYING to find an alternative. Because if we say that death is the only solution for these people, who are as harmless as a Chaos controlled society can physically be (And can be made even less harmful by preventing them from accessing that ship) then there's little reason why we would ever blink at cleansing every Chaos ruled planet with nuclear fire.

And that, I think, would be a shame. There's plenty of that in the 40K universe around. Let us try something else. Even if there is no solution, we will be better for having tried to find it.

And you know, obviously I'm not saying 'alright, let's give these people a ticket to Denva. Absolutely, isolate them. Prevent them from leaving their place, give them some essential so that we're not just dooming them to a slow, miserable death. And in time, in the fullness of time, we can take a look at this Chaos, and study it. And slap the four in the faces by snatching the souls from their plates.

 

[meianmaru]

No seriously, the only thing worse than allowing Chaos to get ahold of Denva because we decided to help these people, is a genestealer cult taking it over. The high standard of living and psychic shielding means it's far less vulnerable to the former, but it could still happen, and we'd have to go after it with extreme prejudice - the bad apple spoils the bunch and all. Like, imagine saying the same with a Genestealer cult 'but yeah, they're just heavily mutated, and some are probably not Tyranid!', I'd rather kill hundreds of millions of innocents purging them, than potentially leave even one alive to restart the whole thing a decade down the line. That fate is far better than the Tyranids subverting and taking over the entire planet because we couldn't stomach doing our job as a leader.

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I do realize that this is an exaggeration, but I would like to point out if we are approaching "kill hundreds of millions of innocents purging them" I think we might be going a bit too far, like the Imperium. And also doing it very inefficiently, also like the Imperium. I think that LightLan's plan is good because it incorporates improving our psychic sensors, so sniffing out actual warp-corruption should be easier.

EDIT:

And that, I think, would be a shame. There's plenty of that in the 40K universe around. Let us try something else. Even if there is no solution, we will be better for having tried to find it.

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I have nothing against going towards finding a solution. But currently we don't even have an easy-to-reach lead towards that, at least from what I can see. So I don't see much point in trying just for the sake of trying, so that we can say to ourselves that we tried.

In the end, this quest is meant to be mainly about exploration as a concept (and a game-mechanic). If you don't want Vita to get involved in killing those infected, I think that making a plan that doesn't even try interacting with this place and its people at all and instead moves on immediately? Might be the best option.

 

[ShadeFiende]

This could be a place to test the creation of a different faith or altered imperial one? Lots of different isolated test beds to view the reactions of different types of worship.

That's minor though, the main thought for me here is that this is kind of like Bongo. A time sink and opportunity cost. If we can perfect our humanitarian aid techniques and material/weapons here, that could be incredibly useful.

I still think spending 2-3 turns here would be a good plan. 1 for researching some of the important, basic things we want to get done, 2 to start actually working on fixing some of the problems in this system, and 3 to follow up on the issues or just prep to move on. If nothing shows as even being viable in the 2'nd turn, we can drop things.

Investing a single turn in trying to help to set the baseline of what we can do for them feels appropriate. Even just contacting the ship and putting our efforts there would work.

If we convert the ship to our side, we can then use it to convert the rest of the stations. So hack the ship to leave it stuck in a stable orbit without connecting to any new stations. Begin diplomacy with that ship. Start whittling them down diplomatically while we prep Cia for going in and personally roasting the Chaos Cults.

We can even casually set up new void manufactorums as well as long as they aren't near the others. Once the ship isn't moving, it'll be easy enough to keep those safe.

This system is mostly empty, which gives it incredible value to us as a sandbox for testing things in. That's the primary value of this place. It's mostly stable too- a few purpose built life supporting manufactories for the ship at least (after diplomacy bombing them into being better for Denva's eventual collection) and we'd maintain that sandbox for future use.

Even if that's the only use that we have for this system- testing Cia, testing faith tech, testing diplomatic measures, testing humanitarian ability, testing weaponry, etc…- it's still a highly valuable use.

Plus, aside from desires- Cia go stabby some Chaos, humanitarian work- we have no pressing issues right now. Research can easily focus on the material sciences for the most part. Boosting SOME of the other Tech Trees at least into the second or third layers of Researchable Tech.

That feels pretty great to me.

(Also, just to reiterate my earlier minor desire, I feel that faith and religion Tech could be VERY useful here and in the future. For dismantling Chaos worship, even if we don't replace it with our own faith. If nothing else, it helps Cia.)

 

[LightLan]

We need to spend 2 turns in this system anyway to get our psychic shields repaired.

Gotta make ourselves useful in the mean time.

 

[KyleDaScourge]

Just to float a crazy compromise for handling the Chaos people...

We have cryo / stasis technology right? Or am I misremembering from when we used that as a cover story at the start of the quest?

This would probably be a rare situation where we're dealing with small enough groups and have sufficiently overwhelming force, that we could just capture everyone on the chaos stations and stasis them until we develop a reliable detection for corruption, or even a cure.

 

[Silver719]

Nat 1s on important actions two turns in a row. I am screaming inside.

 

[Shogeton]

But that is the correct reaction to Chaos. Burn it out, ensure it cannot spread. No seriously, there's no way for us to filter cultists and non-cultists, or remove contamination, or somehow flip chaos-worshippers that have committed crimes against humanity, usually by their own will (why would we bother, no seriously, surely there are others more deserving of our help?). This is 40k, 21st century highminded morality has no place here. Being nice and generous to Denva or other people, uplifting and improving living conditions such is all well and good, but that must be grounded in a bed of pragmaticism and realism about the state of the galaxy and our foes. To do otherwise is foolhardy and naive, if not destructive to our own cause in and of itself.

No seriously, the only thing worse than allowing Chaos to get ahold of Denva because we decided to help these people, is a genestealer cult taking it over. The high standard of living and psychic shielding means it's far less vulnerable to the former, but it could still happen, and we'd have to go after it with extreme prejudice - the bad apple spoils the bunch and all. Like, imagine saying the same with a Genestealer cult 'but yeah, they're just heavily mutated, and some are probably not Tyranid!', I'd rather kill hundreds of millions of innocents purging them, than potentially leave even one alive to restart the whole thing a decade down the line. That fate is far better than the Tyranids subverting and taking over the entire planet because we couldn't stomach doing our job as a leader.

This is 40k, not Mass Effect or Star Wars. Stop taking the primary antagonists of this universe so lightly.

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In a normal 40K story? Sure. Yeah, we play with characters that have a very limited ability to affect the world.

This is not a normal 40K story, and we're not a normal 40K protagonist. We are explicitly able to work wonders that the 40K universe forgot. We are explicitly a mind that is formed in a brighter, better age and wants to do better. This is not a story about working within the normal constraints of the 40K universe, but to challenge them. And I find the idea of seeking a path of redemption not only for the Turbo-Fash Empire, but also the spiky, tainted people that face them a great challenge. To not do so, and just go 'Chaos is scary, start the massacres' would be wasteful of one of the few 40K stories that offers alternatives.

It's obviously not something we're equipped with now. But if we wanna have a hope of it, this is pretty much a perfect 'patient' to study. All we need to do is just isolate them and not butcher every last one of them. We can just move on. We can remove the ability for the ship to dock at them and just send them some stuff so they can hold out while we work on other things. I'm not saying we build 'Vita's House of Redeeming Poor Chaos Wretches' right now. We got other fish to fry. Maybe come back in a human generation or three.

Will it be difficult and dangerous? Yes. Especially IF there is a path to reverse this, the Chaos Gods are going to be... unhappy about it. But quite frankly, it's worth it.

 

[Speedemon22]

I still think we should be preparing to expand the fleet. The system is relatively safe and there is plenty of opportunity to set up manufacturing this turn. Though, I suppose everyone want to wait until we get back to Denva before we do that huh?

 

[Alectai]

Well, nice to see that "overbuilding because we have no idea what is coming in the future" pays out again. I was damn near bouncing off the walls waiting for this doot.

 

[chryssalideater]

You're a little bit worried about the rate at which he's accumulating power, but it's not like you're very worried about it's capabilities. You're immune to scrapcode, after all.

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I mean that makes sense. Baldur is immune to all threats, physical and magical, after all.

Researched Scrapcode Immunity - rolled 1+20=21, Poor success. Failure, tech lost (though you've gained a replacement)
You've reverted your shield back to the scrapcode resistance versions that take 1/4 damage.
New research unlocked - Machine Spirit Scrapcode Immunity (350 RP)
New research unlocked - Manufactory Scrapcode Immunity (300 RP)
New research unlocked - Ship system Scrapcode Immunity (300 RP)
New research unlocked - Implant Scrapcode Immunity (250 RP)
New research unlocked - Scrapcode Denial? (400 RP) Requires Psychic Encryption
Existing research cost increased - Psychic Shield Tuning cost +50 RP
Existing research cost increased - Psychic tripwires +25 RP

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NOO BONGO YOU FOOL! YOU PLAYED YOUR HAND TOO EARLY!
Ahem.
@Neablis lovely scene as always, your chaos writing remains a 10/10 for creativity.
I get why you did it, as the thread probably would have rioted, but I am sad bongo didn't wait for us to research some of the other "scrapcode immunities" before attacking.
Anyhoo, WhyIShouldThrowThisScrapcodeGeneratorIntoTheSun.pptx

There's an argument to be made that it's possible, or even likely, that this system has fallen far enough that the stations openly flouting Chaos livery are only doing it because all they know about Chaos is "It's the enemy of the Imperium" and all they remember about the Imperium is "They're those guys who repaid our millenia of service by fucking off and leaving us to our current fate of a slow agonizing death as our stations waste away around us, also those assholes in the ship who come around and raid us every once in awhile."

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And a civilian with a Chaos star tattooed on them is still a civilian.

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Feel like you guys may have missed some key words here, let me go back and highlight them real quick:

The first portrays a somewhat battered but still golden Imperial two-headed eagle, while the second shows an eight-pointed star splashed on the inside of a window in blood

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We aren't going to be finding civilians in those stations. Not after a thousand years of isolation (or however long it's been since the imperium bailed)

As for being overly brutal, everything people have suggested this far is merciful compared to how things usually go, and maybe not for the best. To play imperial advocate here:

============][============
Thought of the day: "Innocence Proves Nothing"​

We're currently treating the stations like they can be divided into chaos and "normal". Thing is, there actually isn't any guarantee that the stations without the chaos symbology are actually chaos free. The Inquisitions approach here would definitely be to wipe all the stations out, and probably the ship for good measure. As is, supplying aid to the "normal" stations runs the risk of a cult resurgence later down the line.

============][============
​

I'm not saying we should just leave mind you, but I think starting with the ship might be a better idea. And sorting the stations into good and bad based on the wallpaper is a dumb idea.

 

[Cookiesndip]

But, like, why? We'd be endeavoring to 'save' a society of effectively Dr. Mengeles, cannibals, sex cultists, and war fanatics. Why waste our time and effort on people that are actively, on both on a cultural and a metaphysical level, inherently antithetical to us and the universe as a whole? They're a danger to not only us, but any species in general. None of them are innocent, there's no way more than the smallest handful aren't chaos cultists after 200 years in an environment with shitall resources, knowingly or not. Yeah, they were in a shit situation, what's new in 40k, but it doesn't excuse them, nor does it change what we have to do. Leaving them alone isn't a good idea either, they're a threat to Denva when they inevitably scout this sector.

That's getting into annoying stereotypical Mary Sue-levels of mental gymnastics because you don't want to treat 40k with any sort of respect regardig the difficulties of the setting. This is 40k, we don't want to help every evil asshole we come along, and you have to be realistic rather than having the expectation that we can or SHOULD solve everything by researching for a turn or two and never ever solve a problem thriugh any means but a diplomatic one. What's next, we run into the daemon planet or genestealer cult and our first thought will be 'I can fix them!', then hand over our finished product to Denva to 'manage' wherein it blows up in our face predictably? Or maybe we head over to Commorragh, and our first thought will be 'I'll find a way to cure the Drukhuri, there are good ones, I'm sure', or 'I can't blow up the place because there's a few innocents in some dungeon somewhere, clearly we need to execute an impossible rescue mission instead of blowing the place up'!

Fuck that. Be more pragmatic, people, we aren't Madokami (who is ironically a lot more sensible in that quest despite having an order of magnitude more resources than us), we're an AI in a ship and are nothing particularly special or unique in this universe, either technologically or by our nature, and the universe gobbled the others up all the same. That can change, but for now, we aren't anything new, stop acting like we're Madokami's gift to the universe.

 

[Driven by Apathy]

You're all very quick to jump to conclusions when the truth is that Vita knows almost nothing about what's actually happening in this system.

Maybe figure that out first before going in guns blazing?

 

[Shard]

I would really prefer we dismantle Bongo. I want to spend time reading on things that aren't 'be even more immune to something you have largely have handled already'.

As for Chaos!

The Imperium is the only faction in the entire 40k setting who actually suffers from Chaos. If there was a way to trivially cure Chaos they wouldn't even attempt, to be honest. Not saying that there was one, but like.. I can believe that Chaos is incurable by the Imperium. But the Imperium probably also couldn't cure smallpox, in this analogy.

 

[Alectai]

I mean, Chaos plagues everyone, it's just that the Imperium is super weak against it. How much of this is a matter of "It's just built that way", and how much is "Chaos just can't be assed with anyone else because they already have a favorite toy" is unclear. Other species either deal with them in specific ways, or have to deal with their agents fucking around rather than "Someone saw a Nurgling once and now the entire planet is pus" which the Imperium seems to deal with.

 

[chryssalideater]

I mean, Chaos plagues everyone, it's just that the Imperium is super weak against it. How much of this is a matter of "It's just built that way", and how much is "Chaos just can't be assed with anyone else because they already have a favorite toy" is unclear. Other species either deal with them in specific ways, or have to deal with their agents fucking around rather than "Someone saw a Nurgling once and now the entire planet is pus" which the Imperium seems to deal with.

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I'd like to point out that the imperium is plagued by chaos because it's chaos's current priority. Please direct your attention to the eldar to see what a society that lost to chaos looks like.

 

[KyleDaScourge]

Snip

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I wouldn't be terribly broken up about deciding to sterilize or obliterate every obviously chaotic station in the system but you can pretty much apply all of your arguments to imperial humanity as well. They're definitely culturally a threat and considering both that the emperor is unlikely to look on us kindly and they're the galaxy's largest source of chaos there's plenty of room to label them a metaphysical threat, their entire culture is devoted to exterminating everything external and massively repressing everything internal so you can just as easily argue none of them are innocent, they're also a threat to both Denva and ourself. We even have an example in the last system of an isolated pocket of them who have sworn to destroy us and have every intention of turning every one of their fellows they manage to contact in a similar direction.

...So should we head back ASAP to sterilize that planet and just write off ever having friendly contact with anyone?

 

[Cookiesndip]

We're currently treating the stations like they can be divided into chaos and "normal". Thing is, there actually isn't any guarantee that the stations without the chaos symbology are actually chaos free

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Much the opposite really, given they meet and fight every so often, contamination between is guaranteed. If they were truly segmented this would be different, but they aren't.

Just because we don't want to be the Imperium, doesn't mean we have to take the most unrealistic braindead choice every time while acting as the fairy godmother to a bunch of resource starved chaos cultists, or taking the riskiest possible option every time. Fact of the matter, diplomacy does shitall for chaos and will sabotage our allies, we can't rely on it for everything.

Mark my words, if we try to deal with these yahoos as anything but targets to mercy kill, and then introduce them to Denva, Denva will gain a chaos cult, almost guaranteed. Even if we de-chaosify everyone with some sort of magic, due to their culture, a good chunk would regain it the moment they leave a psionic shield. What, we want to somehow change their chaos-worshipping culture engrained from 200 years of suffering, entirely too so they stop marking their newborns, for example? Well, good fucking luck with that.

Chaos is not a 'disease' to realistically cure. Minor corruption, sure, but anything past that? Glglgl Like spending 3 more turns researching more Chaos shit when all our other techs continue to die by the wayside because we've invested like all of our turns thus far primarily on Chaos research. Not to mention that, for the most part, they joined and acted by their own will. What, do you guys really want to save a bunch of evil chaos worshippers and inevitably practices ritual human sacrifice and cannibalism, all that makes the worst from our world seem like moral paragons? Priorities.