- Location
- California
The downside being the rate of fire and line of sight.
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Wait, even just like, one that's being sent to scout?
I thought the fighters would be able to at least try and fight if we got stumbled on, but this sounds pretty grim. I wonder if arming the fighters with nukes would help with that...
Psyker-wise some suggestions would be:
- Pyromancer: Military commander, when the soldiers under your command are all replaceable robots, you can afford for part of your strategy to be Fire In the Hole!(TM)
- Telepath: Pull a Diana Troy and become a diplomat, pasively listening to the thoughts of others is one of the safest things one can do as a telepath and being able to nudge them sometimes is useful
- Telekinetic: Assassin, it's a combat power like pyromancy but tends to be a bit more subtle
- Biomancer: Healer, we can heal people technologically of course, but it's going to be a while before we can match a skilled and experienced biomancer and when it comes to fighting off warp bullshit plagues this might be our only option
- Demonologist: Warder and psychic researcher, demonology tends to be the odd one out with all the weird powers
Ships in 40K are miles long monstrosities, bristling with enough weapons to wipe all civilization off the surface of a planet
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Personally, I think we should chill out on constructing defenses. If we are thinking about the overall war, then the most impactful things we can do are to take out the kill-sats and subvert more mechanicus, rather than defend a single location. Ideally, we cause a schism, and the fighting is done on mechanicus turf primarily, since they would be less likely to nuke themselves from orbit. (Less likely, not won't)
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
I like Alectai's plan a lot, but still wanted to make some tiny changes. First of all, building one less anti-orbital lance to get us one jammer cogitator bank ready. If things turn out badly due to horrible dice rolls, would be nice to have at least one. Also made a different write-in for the diplomacy action with Thalya/AdMech.
Also, yay, 100 pages! Congrats Neablis!
[] Plan: The Robot-Satan-Snake In The Garden
-[] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[] Look up House Klyssar, and ask the same of Victan's contacts in Aevon. They're one of your main leads to figure out not just what's up with the Mechanicus' station, but also what made them leave a presence on the planet in the first place.
-[] Diplomacy/Subversion (AdMech):
--[] Visit Thalya's Enclave in person this time. Affect a carefully concealed frustrated disposition in the noosphere, and "reveal" that you have need for more assistants than just Anexa at this point to "accelerate the search". Deny taking them just yet, because "you want to ensure they are capable enough" in a way that will hopefully make Thalya think of you being paranoid of her infiltrators and spies. Instead, say that you will take them under your wing in the next five years after making sure that your facilities are ready. Use the cover of scouting new talent in different Enclaves to get in contact with Cogitare Exploraratum, and with Victan assisting remotely, starts fully subverting those that you can, while at least getting your hooks into those you can't. See also about probing for vulnerabilities and installing backdoors to systems of Enclaves with their help, hopefully with improved understanding about emotionally manipulating the machine spirits. (Dedicated subversion effort. Find both true believers and opportunists, as well as those whose loyalties can at least be compromised. Probe for and introduce weaknesses in the systems of the Enclaves.)
-[] Construction x2 (5300 BP = 2650 BP + 2650 BP)
--[] Construction slot, 1st (2650 GBP)
---[] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (2650/3000 BP, 50 CP)
--[] Construction slot, 2nd (2650 GBP)
---[] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (3000/3000 BP, 50 CP) (350 BP)
---[] Underground Spaceport (300 BP, 25 CP)
---[] 22x Basic Stealth Fighters (25 BP, 5 CP) (550 BP, 210 CP) 30 fighters total over 3 spaceports
---[] 1x Underground Machine-spirit Jammer (300 BP, 10 CP)
---[] 2x Underground Anti-Orbital Defenses (300 BP, 5 CP) (600 BP, 10 CP)
---[] 100x Basic Stealth Missiles (5 VBP, 1 CP) (500 VBP, 100 CP) - Launch them using the catapult, not to engage until things get spicy.
---[] Assorted Goods as required by Plans and The Rent (50 BP)
-[] Research x1 (200 + 25 RP)
--[] Blueprint: 50 RP - Basic space stealth missile (5 Void BP, 1 CP)
--[] Blueprint: 25 RP - Machine-spirit Jammer (100 BP, 10 CP)
--[] Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking (150/150 RP)
---[] Anexa assists (+25 RP)
-[] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 20 -> 70 -> 45)
-[] Anexa active Action: Research (Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking)
-[] Victan active action: Subversion (AdMech)
Also, yay, 100 pages! Congrats Neablis!
[] Plan: The Robot-Satan-Snake In The Garden
-[] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[] Look up House Klyssar, and ask the same of Victan's contacts in Aevon. They're one of your main leads to figure out not just what's up with the Mechanicus' station, but also what made them leave a presence on the planet in the first place.
-[] Diplomacy/Subversion (AdMech):
--[] Visit Thalya's Enclave in person this time. Affect a carefully concealed frustrated disposition in the noosphere, and "reveal" that you have need for more assistants than just Anexa at this point to "accelerate the search". Deny taking them just yet, because "you want to ensure they are capable enough" in a way that will hopefully make Thalya think of you being paranoid of her infiltrators and spies. Instead, say that you will take them under your wing in the next five years after making sure that your facilities are ready. Use the cover of scouting new talent in different Enclaves to get in contact with Cogitare Exploraratum, and with Victan assisting remotely, starts fully subverting those that you can, while at least getting your hooks into those you can't. See also about probing for vulnerabilities and installing backdoors to systems of Enclaves with their help, hopefully with improved understanding about emotionally manipulating the machine spirits. (Dedicated subversion effort. Find both true believers and opportunists, as well as those whose loyalties can at least be compromised. Probe for and introduce weaknesses in the systems of the Enclaves.)
-[] Construction x2 (5300 BP = 2650 BP + 2650 BP)
--[] Construction slot, 1st (2650 GBP)
---[] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (2650/3000 BP, 50 CP)
--[] Construction slot, 2nd (2650 GBP)
---[] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (3000/3000 BP, 50 CP) (350 BP)
---[] Underground Spaceport (300 BP, 25 CP)
---[] 22x Basic Stealth Fighters (25 BP, 5 CP) (550 BP, 210 CP) 30 fighters total over 3 spaceports
---[] 1x Underground Machine-spirit Jammer (300 BP, 10 CP)
---[] 2x Underground Anti-Orbital Defenses (300 BP, 5 CP) (600 BP, 10 CP)
---[] 100x Basic Stealth Missiles (5 VBP, 1 CP) (500 VBP, 100 CP) - Launch them using the catapult, not to engage until things get spicy.
---[] Assorted Goods as required by Plans and The Rent (50 BP)
-[] Research x1 (200 + 25 RP)
--[] Blueprint: 50 RP - Basic space stealth missile (5 Void BP, 1 CP)
--[] Blueprint: 25 RP - Machine-spirit Jammer (100 BP, 10 CP)
--[] Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking (150/150 RP)
---[] Anexa assists (+25 RP)
-[] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 20 -> 70 -> 45)
-[] Anexa active Action: Research (Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking)
-[] Victan active action: Subversion (AdMech)
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It's said we only need about 25 Fighters on duty to swat down missiles. If we have like 90 or 80 Fighters we should be golden to handle this.
And y'know what would be great to actually deal with any foreign threats? Actual Void Infrastructure. And we can get to work on that pronto as soon as the Mechanicus is subdued, which I'm planning on doing Turn 13. The thing is those Lances are so freaking expensive that it might delay things, and the more things are delayed, the more likely this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I promise, as soon as those Enclaves are subdued I'll advocate for building a dozen of those sumbitches when we no longer have to worry about hiding anything.
In general, the way you fight spaceships is with other spaceships. Even ground-to-orbit defenses are closer to area denial weapons unless they're very well-hidden and can take out the attacking force before it can run out of range. The attacking force just stays out of the attack cone and drops ground forces to assault the orbital defenses on foot. That's the primary reason why ground battles even happen. Well that and sometimes you want to capture something instead of destroying it.
But yeah, if a single scout destroyer showed up and waltzed into orbit you could probably blow it up with 3 orbital lances, though you'd probably need more than 1 volley. But it's victory condition is probably "escape" rather than "win," especially if your lances were covered by a void shield. In fact, 3 lances + void shield probably wins against a bunch of destroyers, a few frigates or a cruiser in an extended duel, but they'd probably just rather not come into range instead.
It's possible for small craft to threaten bigger ships, and the way that happens is called bombers. Well, and boarding craft. And even then if the enemy craft is specced into point defense it would take an absurd number of small craft to win. They're just not an efficient solo solution against Big Ship, they're good at distraction and scoring critical hits when the other ship is more focused on another ship.
Huh. Yeah, I could see those. This is why the list of roles is tentative and not in an informational threadmark or anything. You probably wouldn't have a telepath psyker and a diplomat, or a pyromancer/telekinetic and a commander/champion. I could also see assassin being a thing too, though it overlaps with Victan a bit - but he's more of a spymaster than an infiltrator.
Thanks! It's been a wild ride so far, and I'm looking forward to it continuing for a while longer.
Edit: Oh apparently I'm in the running for best new quest. That would be neat.
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So just checking in with people, we are going to wait until after we deal with the mechanicus to talk to the cloistered psykers, yes? I'm just thinking that they may have opinions on the whole mechanicus getting overthrown thing. Or maybe not, I guess it depends on how things go down, and how isolated they are.
Beyond that, I wonder if we would register weirdly to them as an AI. We'd probably have to research at least basic psytech in order to seem mostly normal and not as either completely null or as some kind of hive mind or something in a in-person meeting.
Beyond that, I wonder if we would register weirdly to them as an AI. We'd probably have to research at least basic psytech in order to seem mostly normal and not as either completely null or as some kind of hive mind or something in a in-person meeting.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
You know, I find many problems with your approach. But your argument falls mostly apart already to the fact I'm also planning for solving the mechanicus problem on turn 13. We now have enough build capacity for it, and will have after this turn the two most expensive projects, the mag-rail and the void-shield done.
Hmmm. Might rejigger my plan a bit more to have 3 lances. Maybe removing the missiles for this turn, and just taking two construction actions on the next turn to throw them to the orbit. @Alectai, how would that sound to you?
- Location
- Australia
Interesting - if we get a navigator (or navigators), could we research how to adapt a void abacus and train navigators to work together for greater efficiency and safety margins/redundancy?
Sure? Probably somewhat marginal gains. And the Navigator might be grumpy about it. In the "Don't need no stinkin' AI model doing my job for me - but badly!" kind of way.
It's not like 3 lances is the magic number. 1 lance + void shield would make a destroyer run, you would just need to crit to destroy them.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Not a magic number, but it does sound to me that it would be the threshold for more reliably catching that weight-class of ships before they can run away and call for reinforcements to deal with the threat. But anyway, after looking at the math for a bit? Decided that I still wouldn't go for it. Still good enough to for most of the reasonable worst-case scenarios as deterrence, so we are not at least completely vulnerable to that kind of threat before we can build up more stuff to deal with it.
I feel like you are being a bit paranoid. This system has been isolated for 160 years. Is there any reason to expect a visit in the next five?
That would be bad. Navigators are known for having absolutely no chill with regards to anything that threatens their monopoly on FTL. Why? Because the Imperium (and humanity in general) hates them for both understandable and some not so understandable reasons.
It's not like we are talking to the Paternova here. 'Hey Jimmy have the secret of eternal life and a supportive crew that treats you with dignity and respect, now what's your opinion on the monopoly of the Navigator houses in the Imperium that would shoot you for consorting with AI anyway?'
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Because invisible QM dice rolls to see if something happens might be a thing. Because Neablis has been dropping hints that we might not have forever to device a perfect counter for the AdMech, as something else might drop in and invalidate most of our specialized counters due to being a completely different threat.
More IC reason: it has been, but Vita has been there for 60 years soon. At some point, somebody is bound to drop in, and we can't know when. I mean, those stations are pretty big and AdMech is interested in them. Who knows who might want to loot them besides the AdMech, now that their and the Imperium's presence here is so weakened?
Anyway, all this means that I'm trying to device a good enough counter for the AdMech as soon as possible, while also including defenses that would hopefully allow us survive for long enough to pivot against any unknowns potentially dropping in.
The thing is you are fixating on 'ships showing up' as the disruption, but it could be anything. A Nurgle plague could start in one of the monasteries because someone had a psychic oopsie, one of the other nations could be infiltrated with genestealers etc...
If anything the reminder that we have been here 60 years is one more IC reason why no one would show up in the next 5, it's been almost quarter of a millennia since anyone showed up in this system, I do not think the chances of someone showing up in the next 5 are all that great and conversely that is BP we could use to just get our plans done faster and get the Denvans on their feet, in the long run and against the unknown unknowns out there I think that is most important.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Yeah, those we should be able to manage on the next turn now that both the mag-rail and void-shield are done. One research action plus Anexa, and we could grab these:
Who knows, maybe the combat bot humanization research will actually roll well, and we get some sort of nice buff to the bots we will make at the same time! ...Yeah no, that research topic seems cursed so I don't hold much hope, but I will take at least normal-costing robots who look like humans who have been made into meat-robots.
I think you are kinda underestimating a few factors... For one, all navigators are bound to the Paternova, it isn't explained much but it is why they don't need to be bound to the Emperor. Secondly, because they are completely and utterly necessary to the function of the Imperium, they have used their status to live the richest lifestyles possibly for since before the Imperium's existence, not even the Emperor could get them to give up their insanely lifestyles. This plus the fact that the Imperium would leap to kill them all if they weren't so necessary means that they jump on even the slightest possibility of non warp ftl and anything that could threaten their monopoly. Some nice words aren't going to change the mind of a navigator, they simply have too much to lose by our Warp Abacus' existence.It's not like we are talking to the Paternova here. 'Hey Jimmy have the secret of eternal life and a supportive crew that treats you with dignity and respect, now what's your opinion on the monopoly of the Navigator houses in the Imperium that would shoot you for consorting with AI anyway?'
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Yeah, but enemy ships are much more common threat than those that you listed out, and the mechanicus might still have some hidden in the system. We can't prepare for absolutely everything yes, but we can still prepared the more obvious and common potential threats. Also, still useful for smashing apart any satellites that potentially slip past our other hard-kill-methods, even if very inefficiently.
The reason they do not need to be bound to the Emperor is because no one needs to be bound to the Emperor, it's helpful, but you can explicitly be a sane and stable psyker without it. Imperials have a thing for hierarchical so they exaggerate the point to which the Navigators have to care about the Peternova. They work with pirates and rebels just fine and they plot against the Paternova even better.
As for the second point, Jimmy the Navigator would be killed on sight for working with an AI, it doesn't matter to him what the IoM would or would not do to other Navigators because they too would kill him on sight for working with an AI, as well as any immediate family he may have who might possibility know about the AI. Once you are over the line of 'yeah I'm working with Abominable Intelligence what of it?' loyalty to imperial institutions goes out the window.
We would have noticed a ship in system, imperial ships are not stealthy.
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