Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

[Alectai]

1. Yes, but we can do that by other means.
2. I can see why. But getting an actual controlled powerbase for our faction set up is prob just as good. Which would mean the opposite approach.
3. I still think the cybernetic makes a better poisoned chalice.

I like it! I'm also noticing the painfully weird BP count and frankly the urge to round it off with some underground factories so we have something sensible to work with is strong.

Smugging on Thalya like that would be fun. But it'd also be implying we're done. Which we probably don't want to.

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Doesn't mean we're done, it just means we've gotten Advantage, which is going to make her wonder what our game is. We then ideally decoy it by going "Oh, she figured out some insights regarding superior augmetic design, nothing worldshaking but it's a respectable iteration.", so she doesn't look further and find out what our actual game is.

 

[Negentropy]

Here's my current overall list of potential roles, though some of them are overlapping a bit.
Pilot
Commander
Champion
Technologist - Anexa
Spy - Victan
Diplomat
Psyker

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@Neablis, would a Navigator count as a psyker or a pilot in this instance, since their technically psykers for purely pilot roles?

 

[thatguy99998]

Second comment - it's going to be harder to recruit more "Crew" going forward. You've got two members already, and the total number of crew is going to be capped somewhere between 5-7, with no repeat specialties. No more tech-priests for example, though maybe a skitarii would work for a military role. Here's my current overall list of potential roles, though some of them are overlapping a bit.
Pilot
Commander
Champion
Technologist - Anexa
Spy - Victan
Diplomat
Psyker

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no dedicated blank role? we would have to get lucky and be able to get them as another role?

 

[BigBadBob7070]

Oh yeah! Alectai's out with the plan and we're gon-

---[] 3x Underground Anti-Orbital Defenses (300 BP, 5 CP) (900 BP, 15 CP)

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Why? Why do we need these expensive fucking Anti-Orbitals? For that same price, we could get 36 Fighters which even if we don't rearm could take down 36-108 Killsats while those 3 ginormous guns can only kill 3 every 10 minutes. These things are made to shoot naval ships, not clear the orbit of a hundred satellites. They are INCREDIBLY cost inefficient for the purpose we want for them, even 3 Fighters would be better than 3 Anti-Orbitals b/c at least they can take down more than one in one go.

We could get SO MUCH Fighters from that 900 BP, 900 BP that could be vastly more effective in taking on the AdMech and their strategic weapons than 3 giant cannons that are overkill and fire too slow to be all that useful.

So please, please for the love of God don't go after the big shiny east of building material. If you really want Anti-Orbitals we could build 9 of them for the same price above ground after we pacify the Enclaves.

 

[Alectai]

I mean, it'll be handy if we get an Honorable Third Party getting stuck in here too, but I can take one of them off, I'm just not willing to deploy fighters unsupported.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

I mean, it'll be handy if we get an Honorable Third Party getting stuck in here too, but I can take one of them off, I'm just not willing to deploy fighters unsupported.

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Than deploy them with missiles? Seriously, we have drones that shoot (fighters) and drones that explode (missiles).

Can we develop an anti satellite and anti smaller craft orbital reaching ground based weapon instead of these huge lances maybe?

There are laser and plasma macrocannons in the lore let's use some of those. Something like Sunsear or Hecutor.

 

[Prime 2.0]

Than deploy them with missiles? Seriously, we have drones that shoot (fighters) and drones that explode (missiles).

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He is staging 100 missiles, though? I think Alectai is right to want some ground support, we shouldn't count on the point defenses of every sat being overwhelmed. It's good to have an option that just says "no, fuck you, die".

Also provides a decent distraction karnifex - get more value out of that void shield from surviving sats prioritizing us pointlessly because shit, at least they know where the lances are coming from.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

I mean, it'll be handy if we get an Honorable Third Party getting stuck in here too, but I can take one of them off, I'm just not willing to deploy fighters unsupported.

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But they AREN'T going to be unsupported, we are sending a hundred stealth missiles up there to activate on our command and we have the ability to hack them to try taking some offline. And as I said before, it's not like those Anti-Orbitals are going to be much help since, y'know, can only shoot once per 10 minutes.

And if there really is a Third Party coming in, we're gonna be fucked anyways even with some anti-orbitals it's not really going to be much if they come in any appreciable force. So we might as well focus on building our forces to deal with the Mechanicus now and AFTER they're dealt with we can build fucktons of Anti-Orbitals.

He is staging 100 missiles, though? I think Alectai is right to want some ground support, we shouldn't count on the point defenses of every sat being overwhelmed. It's good to have an option that just says "no, fuck you, die".

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But y'see, there IS an option that gurantees their destruction: building fucktons of fighters and just swarming them with them. Hell, I don't even think these Sats have Point Defense. They just have the WMDs and that's it.

 

[Prime 2.0]

But y'see, there IS an option that gurantees their destruction: building fucktons of fighters and just swarming them with them. Hell, I don't even think these Sats have Point Defense. They just have the WMDs and that's it.

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What were the stats Neablis mentioned again - advanced stealth missiles would need 2:1 superiority to secure kills and basic stealth missiles like we're sending up will need 5:1? Something like that, he may have just been giving examples and the search bar isn't good for finding such small search strings like those ratios.

Call the defensive measures that make them so surviveable what you want, but these things very much do fight back. Sometimes you need a bigger gun.

 

[Angle]

What were the stats Neablis mentioned again - advanced stealth missiles would need 2:1 superiority to secure kills and basic stealth missiles like we're sending up will need 5:1? Something like that, he may have just been giving examples and the search bar isn't good for finding such small search strings like those ratios.

Call the defensive measures that make them so surviveable what you want, but these things very much do fight back. Sometimes you need a bigger gun.

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I remember it as 1.5:1 for advanced and 2:1 for basic, and that was more due to misses and failures then the killsats fighting back. Though for all we know they do that too.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

What were the stats Neablis mentioned again - advanced stealth missiles would need 2:1 superiority to secure kills and basic stealth missiles like we're sending up will need 5:1? Something like that.

Call the defensive measures that make them so surviveable what you want, but these things very much do fight back. Sometimes you need a bigger gun.

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It was actually more like 3-1 for the basic stealth missiles. And @Neablis also said that each Fighter can take down 1-3 Killsats on their own before they have to rearm. And as I keep saying, those Anti-Orbitals won't fucking matter since they can only gurantee 3 kills out of 100. They are the equivalent of a placebo for how useful they are in actually dealing with this when for an equivalent amount of resources we could guarantee that 36 Killsats die.

[] Plan: Taking the Skies!
-[] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[] Look up House Klyssar, and ask the same of Victan's contacts in Aevon. They're one of your main leads to figure out not just what's up with the Mechanicus' station, but also what made them leave a presence on the planet in the first place.
-[] Diplomacy/Subversion: Leveraging our Position
--[] Pay a visit to Thalya in person, don't be afraid to come off as a little smug, give the report and all of that business, and give the implications that while you may not have found the grand prize, you've found enough little bits and bobs so far to help refine your own understanding of some of the fundaments, and there's still plenty left to look into. Afterwards, go spend some time canvassing the Cogitae (While also making sure you clean up Thalya's latest attempt to track you down), and drop a few insights of your studies in too--such as the designs for your civilian augments, which if Anexa's response was any indication, should be a major carrot and a sign that what you're doing is a worthy task. While this is going on, touch base with some of the more... Committed acolytes, and make sure they get any tools they'll need for the plan of defanging the current regime. (Thalya Report mixed with further supporting and tossing incentives in to the Cogitae Exploratrum, with little carrots here and there to help encourage them, like our studies on optimized civilian augmetics and--perhaps our neural augments, presuming this doesn't get vetoed by one of our advisors, maybe the odd bit of useful gear too, we do have an extra budget for this now).
-[] Construction x2 (5300 BP = 2650 BP + 2650 BP)
--[] Construction slot, 1st (2650 GBP)
---[] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (2650/3000 BP, 50 CP)
--[] Construction slot, 2nd (2650 GBP)
---[] Underground Medium Void Shield installation (3000/3000 BP, 50 CP) (350 BP)
---[] 2x Underground Spaceports (600 BP, 50 CP)
---[] 46x Basic Stealth Fighters (25 BP, 5 CP) (1,150 BP, 230 CP) 46 fighters total over 4 spaceports
---[] 100x Basic Stealth Missiles (5 VBP, 1 CP) (500 VBP, 100 CP) - Launch them using the catapult, not to engage until things get spicy.
---[] Assorted Goods as required by Plans and The Rent (50 BP)
-[] Research x1 (200 + 25 RP)
--[] Blueprint: Basic Stealth Missiles (50 RP)
--[] Machine Spirit Emotional Hacking (150/150 RP)
---[ ] Anexa assists (+25 RP)
--[] Blueprint: Machine Spirit Jammer (25 RP)
-[] Pay rent (Trade Goods, Aevon 20 -> 70 -> 45)
-[][ANEXA] Research
-[][VICTAN] Subversion
--[] Assist with the Mechanicus Diplomacy action

 

[Alectai]

The point is, it forces the Admech to have to come to us if they want to retain orbital superiority--to the stronghold we've been developing all this time. If they happen to have a hole card or a secret monitor somewhere, they have to be circumspect about using it or they risk coming into our defense envelope.

As Prime said, it's a Distraction Carnifex--a threat they have to answer or else yield an entire hemisphere to us uncontested. Ideally, the missiles work and get the job done in themselves, if they don't, we have the fighters, if the target is too big for fighters, we have the anti-orbital batteries to secure a hemisphere if need be.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

The point is, it forces the Admech to have to come to us if they want to retain orbital superiority--to the stronghold we've been developing all this time. If they happen to have a hole card or a secret monitor somewhere, they have to be circumspect about using it or they risk coming into our defense envelope.

As Prime said, it's a Distraction Carnifex--a threat they have to answer or else yield an entire hemisphere to us uncontested.

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If there was some super secret monitor they have, we likely would have known about it by now with all the records we have access to. And they'll likely know that they'll have to come to us since when they actually start scanning, they'll see the dozens of fighters flying out of and returning to our base.

 

[Alectai]

If there was some super secret monitor they have, we likely would have known about it by now with all the records we have access to. And they'll likely know that they'll have to come to us since when they actually start scanning, they'll see the dozens of fighters flying out of and returning to our base.

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Not if it's hiding behind the moon, or if they've got some limited control of the Big Thing.

We have an observatory, it's not magic, if they're hiding something out of line of sight, we won't be able to see it without getting another angle.

The point is, it doesn't really cost us anything to do this at this point, you know? We can't throw up more than a hundred missiles a turn with our current spacelift capacity. At least this way if the worst happens and we go loud this turn (Not impossible, it just takes one bad counterintelligence roll and the jig will be up), we'll be able to make a good showing this way, since three batteries and a Medium Void Shield gives us functional immunity to their orbital bombardment, even if we can't protect anything outside of our line of sight. But assuming "we can ignore the spaceport limits we'll be fine" feels like a bad idea.

 

[Prime 2.0]

Hey, remember those giant space stations which we still have no clues to the purpose of other than that the mechanicus are constantly shipping supplies to them to keep a constant presence there?

Just saying, but those "what's in space" rolls hit the maximum for mechanicus space presence, and the maximum for "random cool shit in space". If it was ever mechanically possible for them to have a trump card up there, then they probably do and it wouldn't be all that surprising if it's one of those big honkers in plain sight.

Better to have an answer for that and not need it than to need it and not have an answer.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

We have an observatory, it's not magic, if they're hiding something out of line of sight, we won't be able to see it without getting another angle.

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Even completely disregarding the Observatory, I am pretty damn sure that we would have heard something about their being a ship out here in the AdMech's archives b/c this isn't exactly something they have much reason to deliberately keep hidden from a bunch of locals that can only launch satellites. You are just being incredibly paranoid and searching for any excuse to have these guns that are again, incredibly inefficient for the job at hand.

Hey, remember those giant space stations which we still have no clues to the purpose of other than that the mechanicus are constantly shipping supplies to them to keep a constant presence there?

Just saying, but those "what's in space" rolls hit the maximum for mechanicus space presence, and the maximum for "random cool shit in space". If it was ever mechanically possible for them to have a trump card up there, then they probably do and it wouldn't be all that surprising if it's one of those big honkers in plain sight.

Better to have an answer for that and not need it than to need it and not have an answer.

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And the AdMech don't have it online at all, they only have the smallest, most meager presence and it isn't even in one of the stations more vital areas.

 

[Neablis]

Two quick points:
First. Missile math is that you want 2:1 superiority for basic stealth missles and 1.5:1 for advanced. And that's to get 100% kills on a basic success roll. But even a poor success is only going to leave a few sats alive, and 1:1 of basic stealth missiles will still get 75% of them on a normal success. But 25 kill-sats is still enough to take out every city on the planet.

Second - don't feel like you can save an action by just building up until the mechanicus notices you without penalty. That hands them the initiative, and lets them take the first move. Which might be identifying the origin point and dropping every single weapon that can range on your head. It's not likely to work since it would take 4 terrible (sub 5%) rolls in a row (1 for them to spot the stealth, 2 to backtrace the origin, 3 for your spies not to tip you off, 4 for your defenses to not be able to interrupt their alpha strike at all and the full number to overwhelm your shield). Their more likely decision is to try and figure out what the hell is going on.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

Two quick points:
First. Missile math is that you want 2:1 superiority for basic stealth missles and 1.5:1 for advanced. And that's to get 100% kills on a basic success roll. But even a poor success is only going to leave a few sats alive, and 1:1 of basic stealth missiles will still get 75% of them on a normal success. But 25 kill-sats is still enough to take out every city on the planet.

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Then good thing we're planning on using Fighters as well. Say, now that you're here, could you say what the odds of success would be if, I dunno, we send 50 Fighters on top of the 100 missiles to deal with the Killsats?

 

[Questwolf]

I think the Anti-orbital guns are worth it, just for the defense in depth. We put a lot of BP into building up our main industrial so site its worth spending some to keep it well defended from orbital bombardment.

 

[BigBadBob7070]

I think the Anti-orbital guns are worth it, just for the defense in depth. We put a lot of BP into building up our main industrial so site its worth spending some to keep it well defended from orbital bombardment.

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Orbital Bombardment From what exactly? From the derelict space station the AdMech are only in the armpit of? From some nonexistent monitor that the AdMech would have no reason to hide? From the Killsats that our Fighters are much better suited towards taking down? Please enlighten me.

 

[Questwolf]

Orbital Bombardment From what exactly? From the derelict space station the AdMech are only in the armpit of? From some nonexistent monitor that the AdMech would have no reason to hide? From the Killsats that our Fighters are much better suited towards taking down? Please enlighten me.

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Lets say AdMech discovers us and strikes first. Fighters take time to scramble while lances are lightspeed weapons. Thats just one example were having different types of defense can help protect us. And that's just the killsats we know are there. What if some other faction shows up early? Having shields, Lances, fighters, and missiles protects us with an overlapping defensive envelope. Even if we never wind up having to use it its not like it will be wasted. Aevon will inherit the industrial site and its defenses when we leave and having a friendly and well protected safe harbor is a valuable thing in this galaxy.

 

[Prime 2.0]

Orbital Bombardment From what exactly? From the derelict space station the AdMech are only in the armpit of? From some nonexistent monitor that the AdMech would have no reason to hide? From the Killsats that our Fighters are much better suited towards taking down? Please enlighten me.

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Yes and Yes to the first few, and Questwolf answered the third with another "yes".

I will reiterate that we do not know why they're on that station or what it is for. What we do know is that the mechanicus used to have a much greater presence that they've have used to determine what they're for and the minimum to still get use out of it - if what's there is all that's needed to boot it up and shoot something nasty at us, then we haven't even bloody checked.

Checking that would take another action. Just build the guns and take the advantages they provide against the other sats.

And the reason to hide a monitor is "so it doesn't get found". That seems reason enough? They didn't want Secondus knowing about the killsats either, you know.

 

[meianmaru]

Orbital Bombardment From what exactly? From the derelict space station the AdMech are only in the armpit of? From some nonexistent monitor that the AdMech would have no reason to hide? From the Killsats that our Fighters are much better suited towards taking down? Please enlighten me.

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From unknown unknowns.

I had more here going into detail, but Questwolf beat me to it. Anyway, assuming that you have perfect understanding about our known opposition, or that we even know who we might be facing? That might get us killed by random event being rolled in secret by Neablis (if they are doing that). I'd rather take redundancy and comprehensive defenses, rather than go for just hyper-efficient specialization.

 

[Aura Dragon]

Then good thing we're planning on using Fighters as well. Say, now that you're here, could you say what the odds of success would be if, I dunno, we send 50 Fighters on top of the 100 missiles to deal with the Killsats?

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The fighters are going to be busy dealing with the nuke barrages. They might be able to deal with the kill sat's after that but that still leaves them enough time to destroy everything on the planet if the missiles don't completely wipe them out.

 

[Neablis]

I'm assuming that wouldn't be Trade Goods but that it'd come under Heavy Infantry Weapons below?

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Yeah, though that's almost a level of abstraction I don't want to get to. It's more in there to help you levelset how many BP converts to how many weapons.

@Neablis, would a Navigator count as a psyker or a pilot in this instance, since their technically psykers for purely pilot roles?

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Prooobably pilot? Depends on what else they're good at. In the lore most navigators are basically only navigators, so if you got one like that they wouldn't be that different mechanically from a void abacus, just faster and with somewhat more personality.

no dedicated blank role? we would have to get lucky and be able to get them as another role?

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Again, depends on what else their skills are. If their only capability is "Blank" then they're less likely to be crew. Crew are active. Crew do things. Blanks are... mostly reactive, and don't usually progress. You'd get a named character who goes along on adventures and gets augments and stuff but doesn't level, unless they're also a champion or something like a Sister of Silence would be. I'm already unsure what a psyker's going to do, unless they roll into foresight or something in which case it's probably dice manipulation.

Then good thing we're planning on using Fighters as well. Say, now that you're here, could you say what the odds of success would be if, I dunno, we send 50 Fighters on top of the 100 missiles to deal with the Killsats?

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Nearly 100%, but there's a low chance the satellites could get some launches off before the fighters reach them, since they're not instantaneous. The anti-orbit lances are. They're also much heavier punches - it's pretty much swatting a mosquito with a sledgehammer. Also the anti-orbit defenses would also be able to damage a real ship in ways a fighter can only scratch.

Again, not saying you should build any. Just pointing out that for this purpose the missiles/fighters are more BP efficient, but the anti-orbit lances have their own advantages.