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The T-34 was a very good tank for its time, the later -85 revision being a nigh-peerless tank for its time, but said time was before guided missiles were a thing, and they change the paradigm for armored warfare significantly.

I don't mean the T-34, I mean the infrastructure to used to build T-34s. Is it genuinely useless for significant military or civilian purposes? I feel like there should be a middle ground between building hopeless out of date tanks and not being able to do anything with it.
 
100% correct - we're currently facing a major shortage of agricultural equipment, and T-34 engine/chassis are basically converted tractors. We might need to do a little retooling to meet more modern fuel-efficiency/environmental standards, but a pre-made tractor factory would be really nice at this point.
Everybody's gone electric in civilian industry. They were selling electric cars in the 2030s in this AU.
By the time we muster sufficient force to put down Victoria for good sometime in the next two decades, we certainly will not be operating diesel vehicles in the civilian sphere anywhere.

Even if we were, the difference between a 1930s motor vehicle and a 2020 motor vehicle is....vast.
The value to us of a 1930s factory with 1930s tools is basically historical.

Is it really that bad? Genuine question, this is not my area of expertise.
It allegedly is that bad for anyone who's used a modern vehicle.

The maximum effective range of the tank gun on a T34 is 800m, with usual combat ranges much shorter than that, and its targeting is horrible. No night vision, terrible reliability by modern standards, fucking horrible ergonomics......it's saving grace was that it was good enough, and cheap enough, to be mass produced by the Soviets. Russian tankers preferred the Land--Lease Shermans; crew comfort mattered, and it was easier to maintain to boot IIRC.

A force of militia driving Toyotas and armed with ATGMs would annihilate them from outside their own range and with zero losses.
I'd take a Toyota with a TOW-missile and a 50 cal over a T-34.
Heck, that would work.
See above.
Even the workforce would require retraining, because they are building 1930s tech with 1930s techniques, and would have to unlearn bad habits that new workers would not have.
 
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The T-34 was a very good tank for its time, the later -85 revision being a nigh-peerless tank for its time, but said time was before guided missiles were a thing, and they change the paradigm for armored warfare significantly.

Hmm depends on which iteration of the T-34 you are talking about the later war one's were pretty good and the ones they up-gunned were pretty good and the Russian had it down to an art form at turning them out and refurbishing badly damaged ones to the point we are still unsure about some of the numbers of destroyed tanks since the number on refurbished tanks are so spott.

Still lot of stuff out there that came out in the 50# that can take one out that really shortened their service life and the earlier ones had issues if the Vics get a few of them they could be left scratching their heads. Also there is the issues is despite their simplicity given the fact the USSR spent a great deal of time striping them out and simplifying them to the point some didn't have have seats when they rolled off the lines the Vics may not be able to maintain them given how they gutted their own manufacturing capability and knowledge base.

The engines maybe they can do that but the turret hydraulics, Barrel maintenance and some of the other stuff doubtful.
 
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Since we talking about the T-34 thought I'd throw this up its a video done by the Tank Museum down in Bovington in the UK.

 
Considering how many of those spam cans the Russians have it not surprise they would have multiple field armies of them in storage.
The Russians allegedly still have 16,000 tanks in storage today. Thats a lot of heavy metal.
But again, Russia is where they are still pulling WW2 tanks out of forests and swamps, and where you'll occasionally find 200 tanks abandoned in a forest in winter. They got tanks for days.
 
The Russians allegedly still have 16,000 tanks in storage today. Thats a lot of heavy metal.
But again, Russia is where they are still pulling WW2 tanks out of forests and swamps, and where you'll occasionally find 200 tanks abandoned in a forest in winter. They got tanks for days.

Thats why I called them cans of spam you find them everywhere hell in places in Africa and some South America who still use them mainly trainers or reserves but some are still in combat service.
 
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Do remember that in the original Coiler thread, there were people pointing out that 40mm HEDP, one of the standard-issue grenade types out of a 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher like the M203 would penetrate T-34 side armor.
No need for an ATGM. The armor is just that shitty.

I mean, it's noteworthy in this AU that the CMC use BTRs, with no T34 component. Ideology didnt blind them to it's shortcomings.
There are much better ways to expend resources than that.
 
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You know, if Victoria genuinely has the capability to manufacture its own T-34s then there is a non-zero chance that we would gain that capability once we defeat them. I feel like we could put it to good use.

EDIT: I mean, not making T-34s probably. But I wonder if it could be adapted to construct some kind of decent light armor that would be an effective weapon against other American factions at the very least.
First, Victoria is the second-toughest nut to crack of all the North American factions, after California. By the time we've beaten the Vicks, there's no one left capable of threatening us on the military front except California or "far foreign" polities outside North America. Neither of them is going to be meaningfully deterred by a small or medium-scale production facility that turns out tanks made of rolled homogeneous armor and armed with 85mm World War Two era guns.

We'd be better to get license production for one of the heavier armored car varieties out there; it'd probably outperform T-34s on a modern battlefield. Or, hell, make something ourselves; likewise.

Do remember that in the original Coiler thread, there were people pointing out that 40mm HEDP, one of the standard-issue grenade types out of a 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher like the M203 would penetrate T-34 side armor.
No need for an ATGM. The armor is just that shitty.
It's mostly that the armor was designed to repel 37mm or 50mm cannon fire, in an age when that meant solid steel shot. It was never meant to keep out a shaped charge munition, not even from a grenade launcher.

I mean, it's noteworthy in this AU that the CMC use BTRs, with no T34 component. Ideology didnt blind them to it's shortcomings.
There are much better ways to expend resources than that.
I was under the honest impression that the CMC had T-54/55 tanks, the Soviet post-WWII design and "low end" mainstay of Cold War Third World nations the world over. It just didn't matter at the Battle of the Raisin because the Devil Brigade's carefully preserved antitank weaponry was a hilarious overmatch for T-54s, just as it was against Saddam Hussein in the Gulf Wars.

Plus, getting the T-54s over the river would have been a toughie since they had to cross the river in amphibious armor- the BMPs (BTRs?)

@PoptartProdigy , am I getting this right? Didn't the CMC have tanks one (modest) step up from the T-34s?
 
Hmm a bigger question is how well are the Vics and the CMC maintaining their equipment? I mean ex soviet equipment is tough it has to be given it was passed out to a conscript army however if memory serves if stuff went wrong with it they usually depended on a network of armourers and mechanics depots to fix it in peace time and in war battlefield scavange unless they get new stuff shipped in though that runs into issues if we are talking about battlefield salvage since you will ne praying what you have salvaged isn't to worn down or close to failure. They also have to look after exUSA and other peoples equipment they scavanged as well and that is going to ne a lot harder.

My point is though given the Vics general backwardness can they keep all the stuff they are getting in serviceable condition? I mean as an example there are a lot of T-34 and T-54/55 kicking around but I don't think anyone is producing spares for their internals and scavenged and hand made stuff will be of dubious qualitiy on off hand material. Also spining up spare lines in Russia will take time unless they are willing to transport the machinery to Victoria which would be difficult since the Vics won't have the skills to maintain them or run them effectively that also assumes the Tzar will be willing to go that far.

I mean most of their Pre scrap with us comes from Cali and the Vics seem to be in the mind set of if it breaks order a new one from the catalog or mainly do plug and play which will hurt their ability to project any force. Hell we saw an example of how poor their technical skill are in and earlier chapter when a Vic Bushwackers gun blew up in there face it was an old piece from what I remember and should have really had a gun smith or armour check it over and people in American depending on area and stare tend to be precious of their guns. That should have been picked up on by a gun smith or gunshop owner if he took it to the unless the skill loss is worse than I think it is.
 
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So what are the chances more pragmatic Vics might justify accepting more advanced military surplus from Alexander on the grounds it's as obsolete to them as the T34 was to Ruford?
 
So what are the chances more pragmatic Vics might justify accepting more advanced military surplus from Alexander on the grounds it's as obsolete to them as the T34 was to Ruford?

Again, the canon omake made it clear they have a different excuse, one involving a purifying cultural revolution against cultural marxism thus allowing them use technology and be fine.

It was born of an attempt to square the circle between "Dark Enlightenment" sorts who at first wanted to go back to the 1700s (impluasible even for Victoria) and the fact that Victoria survives largely because of a Russian Empire that... uses modern technology, but can't be evil, because Victoria doesn't "negotiate with lesser evils."

So clearly it's that Russia went through a cultural revolution when the Tsar rose, a brutal scurging that left Russia able to use the tools of modern warfare without being defiled by the dread cultural products of 1492. They've accidentally done an end run around to dialetic materialistic fascism. :V
 
Akshually....
The first 100 T-34s were shipped in from Russia. On a ship.
"One ship has already arrived from Russia, and more are coming," said Father Dimitri. "We are sending you machine guns, mortars, which will be more useful than artillery in your terrain, anti-tank mines, thousands of RPGs, shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles, and anti-aircraft guns. And a special present from the Tsar himself for Captain Rumford: 100 T-34 tanks, which should be here next week."

"Shit, T-34s?" said General LeMieux. "I guess beggars can't be choosers, but those date to World War II. They can't possibly fight American M-1s. Couldn't you spare us something a little more modern, like T-72s?"

"T-34s are exactly the right tanks for us," I replied. "They are crude, simple, and reliable. They always start and they always run. If they do break, any machine shop can fix 'em. We don't want tanks to fight other tanks. That's what anti-tank weapons are for. The best way to stop an M-1 is with a mine that blows a tread off. We want tanks for real armored warfare, which means to get deep in the enemy's rear and overrun his soft stuff, his artillery and logistics trains and headquarters, so his whole force panics and comes apart."
The impression I get is that Alex expected the whole endeavor to fail bloodily, and was just investing in setting up a bloody quagmire in North America. Imagine his surprise.
If I'm willing to dismiss the entire Azanian War as a work of propaganda covering up a far less successful Pacific War on account of Azania simply being incapable of fitting into material reality, then I'm willing to look up who has T-34s in usable condition and notice that Russia is no longer on the list.
I was under the honest impression that the CMC had T-54/55 tanks, the Soviet post-WWII design and "low end" mainstay of Cold War Third World nations the world over. It just didn't matter at the Battle of the Raisin because the Devil Brigade's carefully preserved antitank weaponry was a hilarious overmatch for T-54s, just as it was against Saddam Hussein in the Gulf Wars.

Plus, getting the T-54s over the river would have been a toughie since they had to cross the river in amphibious armor- the BMPs (BTRs?)

@PoptartProdigy , am I getting this right? Didn't the CMC have tanks one (modest) step up from the T-34s?
They did have -- and do have, in the case of the Crusaders fighting the Civil War -- T-55s.
 
It's mostly that the armor was designed to repel 37mm or 50mm cannon fire, in an age when that meant solid steel shot. It was never meant to keep out a shaped charge munition, not even from a grenade launcher.
1930s/1940s metallurgy wasnt very good by modern standards either; whole generations of armor steel have come and gone since then, before you even begin to talk about the implications of composite armor. You wouldn't pen a Bradley's side armor with a 40mm grenade, and the basic hull is aluminium.

A factory line only capable of 1930s material science are worthless to us.

I was under the honest impression that the CMC had T-54/55 tanks, the Soviet post-WWII design and "low end" mainstay of Cold War Third World nations the world over. It just didn't matter at the Battle of the Raisin because the Devil Brigade's carefully preserved antitank weaponry was a hilarious overmatch for T-54s, just as it was against Saddam Hussein in the Gulf Wars.

Plus, getting the T-54s over the river would have been a toughie since they had to cross the river in amphibious armor- the BMPs (BTRs?)
@PoptartProdigy , am I getting this right? Didn't the CMC have tanks one (modest) step up from the T-34s?
The Fascist Cheetah omake says at various points that there are rumors of T55s among the CMC, and then that they were discussing acquiring T-55s,T72s and BTR80s for their mechanized forces, but that the CMC are equipped with BTRs and BMP-1s.

But during the engagement? All we saw were vehicles capable of unassisted amphibious crossing.
Like you pointed out, T-54s/55s arent amphibious, and the CMC crossed the river without a bridge.
So BTR-60s and BMP-1s.

If they had anything better we'd have seen or heard of it, I assume.
If they had T-55s, they'd have probably won the civil war before Blackwood had time to get his act together.
 
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They did have -- and do have, in the case of the Crusaders fighting the Civil War -- T-55s.
What? My respect for their military competence just went way down.
With two Quality 3/5 Soviet-style mechanized divisions equipped with a T-55 spearhead and facing scratchbuilt Quality 0 militia, they should have won the Civil War before Blackwell got his feet underneath him.
 
The Fascist Cheetah omake says at various points that there are rumors of T55s among the CMC, and then that they were discussing acquiring T-55s,T72s and BTR80s for their mechanized forces, but that the CMC are equipped with BTRs and BMP-1s.

But during the engagement? All we saw were vehicles capable of unassisted amphibious crossing.
Like you pointed out, T-54s/55s arent amphibious, and the CMC crossed the river without a bridge.
So BTR-60s and BMP-1s.

If they had anything better we'd have seen or heard of it.
If they had T-55s, they'd have probably won the civil war before Blackwood had time to get his act together.
I did not precisely go into detail regarding the armored engagement on the Raisin, but suffice it to say that the T-55s organic to Moses Division lacking an organic amphibious option was indeed recognized as an issue. They just...kinda went anyway. They were working on it. The CMC, at least, is capable of throwing together a bridge. They just wanted the BTRs on the other bank to provide security.

And really, when there's a force of late-model M1 Abrams tanks in position to pick apart your BTRs as they float across the river, which side of the river your support tanks occupy is not going to be decisive in whether or not they survive.
What? My respect for their military competence just went way down.
With two Quality 3/5 Soviet-style mechanized divisions equipped with a T-55 spearhead and facing scratchbuilt Quality 0 militia, they should have won the Civil War before Blackwell got his feet underneath him.
They're up against literal hundreds of thousands of militia, and those militia do get anti-armor equipment on occasion. They could not win the war with just that. Thus why their actions thus far have been, "Train additional forces."
 
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Everybody's gone electric in civilian industry. They were selling electric cars in the 2030s in this AU.
By the time we muster sufficient force to put down Victoria for good sometime in the next two decades, we certainly will not be operating diesel vehicles in the civilian sphere anywhere.

Even if we were, the difference between a 1930s motor vehicle and a 2020 motor vehicle is....vast.
The value to us of a 1930s factory with 1930s tools is basically historical.
We, the CFC, are not part of that "everybody". We're poor as shit, and people who are poor are as shit don't avail themselves of the latest luxuries - they make do with whatever they can scrounge.

Importing stuff is expensive - especially if you also have to import all your spare parts and the expertise to service everything. For poor farmers eking out a living on a smaller farm, tractors - of any kind whatsoever - are massive purchases that can only be afforded in the occasional years of plenty when a particularly good harvest happens. Cheap diesel tractors that don't need to be shipped in from the other side of the world and aren't going to cost multiple times their list price in repair and service costs over ten or twenty years are absolutely going to be competitive.
 
I've had some comments on it before, yeah. Wasn't my translation, but honestly, I probably won't do it again, just because I keep hearing about it.

Yeah, I figured that would be the case, it's just made my eyes itch when I looked at it

Probably a good idea, the payoff of writing a section in another language is just not worth it in most cases, even if you are multilingual

Besides the inevitable mistakes, it's impossible to write something in two languages that means literally the same thing. The closest you can get is maybe 95 percent match, and then the differences would look even more stark in comparison

Anyway,

I have to use it because Lind insisted that that's what they got.

This I'm most definitely not blaming you about

I'm just laughing hysterically at the sheer absurdity of the source material having them cobble up together an armor division out of tanks at least century old, if not more, aaaand

And Rumford, smiling, replied, "Well, as it happens, suddenly needing industrial equipment for a production line of obsolete tanks kinda lines up pretty well with my current plans for the industry already in our territory..."

Rumford is a gift that just keeps on giving, no matter how much you scream at him to stop.
 
Okay, but, like, where did they even get enough to form a division? The last modification of this tank stopped being produced in freaking 1950. That means these survived at least 120 years of relatively continuous use....

Alex must really hate these assholes ( and/or he is a huge asshole himself ) if he provided those, he could've I dunno, given them at least slightly newer T54s? So that they wouldn't fall apart with soldiers inside or stop moving due to outgrowths of moss finally completely covering the engines.

Considering Lind's fetish for Germany and "Prussian" ways of doing things, I'll bet Victoria combines WW2-era Soviet design with WW2-era German production organization...

My bet is they are making their own tanks with hand tools and artisanal production techniques. And not only as a matter of ideological self-sabotage, but also because I have no idea how else you could make a T-34 a century after it was designed without also replicating the entire suite of obsolete industries the T-34 was designed to be built by (in the same way as the US couldn't build a Saturn V rocket today and the UK couldn't build a new BR Standard Class 9F steam locomotive or Japan couldn't build another Yamato-class battleship). And not only would Stalin-era industry be a bad investment in the 2030s and 2040s, it would also go against the retroculture aesthetic.

Is it really that bad? Genuine question, this is not my area of expertise.

Maybe some of the tools or equipment could be used in hobbyist machine shops? I expect most of it would be better just melted down for scrap, especially if I am wrong and Victoria produces T-34s on Soviet-style production lines.

The value to us of a 1930s factory with 1930s tools is basically historical.

I very much doubt Victoria would or even could build a 1930s-era Soviet factory. They'd need to recreate a whole suite of technologies and practical design. Though I am sure whatever they created to build their T-34s must be just as useless to us as a 1930s factory would be.

fasquardon
 
I did not precisely go into detail regarding the armored engagement on the Raisin, but suffice it to say that the T-55s organic to Moses Division lacking an organic amphibious option was indeed recognized as an issue. They just...kinda went anyway. They were working on it. The CMC, at least, is capable of throwing together a bridge. They just wanted the BTRs on the other bank to provide security.

And really, when there's a force of late-model M1 Abrams tanks in position to pick apart your BTRs as they float across the river, which side of the river your support tanks occupy is not going to be decisive in whether or not they survive.
Thats reasonable I think.
They're up against literal hundreds of thousands of militia, and those militia do get anti-armor equipment on occasion. They could not win the war with just that. Thus why their actions thus far have been, "Train additional forces."
Militia need time to organize and to concentrate.
The CMC were already concentrated and organized. Even the Soviets, who actually drilled for this sort of thing, could only put Category C divisions in the field in 60 days.

If they'd moved decisively in the first week, the first two weeks they should have been holding Augusta and the centers of power.
The foreign exchange reserves and the rest. Especially in the light of Victoria deliberately making it difficult for people to travel away from their hometowns by multiple measures.

THEN they'd be able to raise and equip troops, and counter-accuse Blackwell of an attempted coup.
Which is why I'm saying my respect for their military capabilities just went way downhill if they had such a decisive materiel advantage and squandered it even worse than their brethren did at Detroit.
We, the CFC, are not part of that "everybody". We're poor as shit, and people who are poor are as shit don't avail themselves of the latest luxuries - they make do with whatever they can scrounge.

Importing stuff is expensive - especially if you also have to import all your spare parts and the expertise to service everything. For poor farmers eking out a living on a smaller farm, tractors - of any kind whatsoever - are massive purchases that can only be afforded in the occasional years of plenty when a particularly good harvest happens. Cheap diesel tractors that don't need to be shipped in from the other side of the world and aren't going to cost multiple times their list price in repair and service costs over ten or twenty years are absolutely going to be competitive.
Somalia doesn't build its technicals. The DRC does not set up 1930s tractor factories. Zimbabwe does not build its own cellphones or computers.
You only see stuff like that in North Korea.
And we laugh at them for a reason.

Importing stuff is expensive. Not importing it is often a false economy.

The whole point of international trade for Third World nations is that it allows them to leapfrog entire stages of development and not crawl through every miserable level from scratch. To leverage existing infrastructure in foreign nations from people who have already built the infrastructure and can mass produce for cheaper than we can, while we focus on stuff that we can do well and build up to a point where we can do our own production.

Witness all the Third World nations with cellphones and mobile banking, and the savings in infrastructure costs from not having to roll out tens of thousands of kilometres of landlines in order to maintain national communications. Witness all the African HIV patients on antiretrovirals that cant be produced in their own countries. Witness the Ebola sufferers on monoclonal antibodies.

Specifically with motor vehicles, 1930s vehicles had terrible fuel economy and poor power to weight.
And critically, they were horribly polluting. Ask anyone who lived in the US before the EPA was invented. Which is literally an existential issue for not just the planet, but us as a nationstate as it impacts the amount of foreign aid we might be able to get.

You are literally asking us to invest in all the infrastructure of internal combustion engines again for civilian use: pipelines, refineries, gas stations, tanker trucks, fuel additives. All the stuff that's not cross-compatible with cheaper mass produced electric-powered vehicles we can buy.
Its a false economy, and ends up costing us more.

Fossil fuels for the military? Yes. We are unlikely to have a choice.
Hybrids are probably a thing for stealth and efficiency, but I dont see how they'd have improved on the convenience of transporting diesels.

Riverine traffic?
Possibly, depending on whether any alternatives can be found.

Farms? No.
There'll be cheaper stuff available, and we probably cant afford to set up segregated civilian infrastructures for both fossil fuel and electrically-powered vehicles.

You says we cannot afford to import?
I assert we can't afford not to import. For us, domestic production of 1930s antiques is a luxury. Its the sort of luxury only an ideological state like Victoria with a sugardaddy backstop can afford.

Actual poor nations import a lot of used vehicles. That I can tell you from experience.
 
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I very much doubt Victoria would or even could build a 1930s-era Soviet factory. They'd need to recreate a whole suite of technologies and practical design. Though I am sure whatever they created to build their T-34s must be just as useless to us as a 1930s factory would be.
fasquardon
GM says the Russians gave them designs; major nations are packrats enough that there are good odds they had factory designs in storage from way back in Soviet times. Look at videos of some of the old Soviet bunkers if you don't believe me.

So yeah, I think I can safely assume that given the Victorian retroculture fetish, they are building those 1930s vehicles with 1930s tools.
There would be no point otherwise, even for the Vics.
At least unless the GM specifies otherwise.

EDIT
Its worth noting that the USSR invited American factory specialists to help with their industrialization.
Same dudes, Albert Kahn Assiciates, who designed General Motors factories helped build Soviet tractor plants.

Specifically, the Stalingrad Tractor Plant, which built and repaired T-34s, was designed and built in the US, dismantled and transported to the Soviet Union, and assembled on site in six months.
Construction of the plant was carried out with the involvement of experts from Western countries, primarily the United States. It was designed by Albert Kahn Associates Inc., the company started by famous American architect Albert Kahn. In 1928, a group of Soviet engineers visited Kahn's office with an order for designing and building the Stalingrad Tractor Plant, and in April 1929, the Soviet trade representative Saul Bron signed the contract with Albert Kahn.[5] The full value of the contract, including equipment, was US$30 million, which would equate to about US$450 million in today's money.[4]

Once the contract was agreed, design and construction of the plant proceeded without delay, and the entire facility was installed within a period of six months under the supervision of American engineers.[5] The steel structures were manufactured in New York by the McClintic-Marshall Company, and then transported to Stalingrad for field assembly. The huge flow of cargo was shipped via the Atlantic Ocean, the Mediterranean and Black Sea, then along the Volga river and over land to the place of construction.[4] The plant was kitted out with equipment from more than eighty US engineering companies and several German firms.[6]

The new factory was officially opened on June 17, 1930, and the first tractor to begin production on the assembly line was the 15-30, manufactured in the USA by the McCormick Deering company; in the USSR, it became known as the 15/30 STZ (or STZ-1).[4] By April 1932, the Stalingrad Tractor Plant was working at full capacity, with 144 tractors a day rolling off the conveyor.[1]
 
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