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I mean, the alternatives seem to be:
  • Mortar fire, but if the unit under threat had the organic weight of fire necessary to prevail, they wouldnt be calling for indirect fires
  • GMLRS(~120k, 130-200km) or ATACMS/PRSM(500k-800k, 300km-800km) which are usually(not always, but usually) assigned for enemy CnC, airfields, fuel and arms dumps and similar centers of gravity in a conventional conflict.
  • Whistling up a fighter if one's available and waiting an hour, and hoping enemy IADS is suppressed and that the people can wait.
  • Calling up a drone swarm to do much the same thing, in twice the time.
  • Losing the unit
I assume losing the unit would be significantly more expensive both in money and in intangibles.
I think GMLRS might actually be the superior alternative here. At a bare minimum it's looking close to competitive, as a tradeoff between being (probably) more expensive than a 155mm shell of comparable range but also being larger and hitting harder.

Note that LRLAP isn't really representative.
It was supposed to be produced solely for the naval 155mms on the Zumwalt-class destoyers, back when they intended to build around 28 Zumwalts.
They cut the number of ships down from 28 to 3, and the number of guns from 56 to 6. The price ballooned to 800k per round and it got cancelled.
Yes, but note that I cited the mass-production cost per unit of 35k per round, not 800k per round. I was deliberately using the cost the manufacturers cited for "this is how much they'd cost if we weren't making an absurdly small production run."

1) No it isn't.
The seeker is less than ten thousand dollars, screwed onto a sub-thousand dollar 155mm shell. That comes to around 11,000 dollars max.
LRLAP's initial price quotation was thirty five thousand dollars. 35,000 dollars.
Yes, it's the rocket engines and ramjets and so on that start raising the price significantly... but those are the features you're proposing to add to the

One GMLRS rocket has cost comparable to a dozen 155mm guided rounds fired from within the range of 'conventional' 155mm artillery. A dozen 155mm shells put together will probably make a bigger dent in the enemy, too.

But when you start putting rocket/ramjet sustainers on the 155mm shells, the equation changes, because the cost of the shells goes up dramatically and the warhead weight goes down a little. By the time you've upgraded the range of the 155mm artillery to the kind of "multiple divisions supporting each other, range >100 km" performance we're discussing, your costs are quite high.

2)MLRS rockets are bulky.
Your MLRS battery typically has two reloads, IIRC, which does not represent a capability for sustained fire. Plus, its actually more vulnerable to enemy C-RAM interception than artillery, assuming the Vics invest in that stuff.
Individual MLRS rockets weigh around 300 kg. Individual 155mm shells weigh around 40-45 kg. The MLRS rockets are much bulkier than individual 155mm shells, but are, again, harder-hitting. If we're comparing one MLRS rocket to three or four extreme range boosted 155mm shells (comparable cost), the MLRS rocket is indeed heavier- but the difference in weight and bulk isn't entirely overwhelming.

An MLRS battery has nine launchers, so a reload for the battery is 108 rockets. If we have one salvo in the launchers, plus two reloads, that's 324 rockets, total weight of all ammunition around 100 metric tons (roughly)... and 36 rockets per launch vehicle.

Now, a 155mm artillery battery could carry 36 rounds per gun in a much smaller total space. 36 155mm rounds will weigh about one and a half metric tons, and I don't know how many guns there are per battery but it's only going to be six or eight guns, maximum. But if they want to carry more ammunition per firing vehicle, it starts to add up pretty fast... and each 155mm shell is less impactful against the enemy than a single MLRS rocket would be.

2) Warhead doesnt mean explosive, mind.
The M107 high explosive artillery shell weighs 43kg, contains 16% explosive by weight, and has a kill radius of 50m.
Because shrapnel.
Yes- but by the same token the M31 rocket is carrying roughly 90 kg of explosives to the M107's seven or eight. It may not have proportionately as high a weight of shrapnel, but it's a much heavier category of munition.

While the US tends to go for bespoke solutions, some of this is coming out of Northern Europe, specifically Norway's NAMMO, where they are significantly less profligate about their defense dollars and also share land and sea borders with Russia. So if they think it's worthwhile pursuing, they think it can be done on a budget now.

And both Denel of South Africa and Rheinmetall are still pushing extended artillery ranges.
So it's not just a Northern Europe thing.
It's definitely a project and they're definitely working on it, but a lot of things get worked on that don't pay off. Developing a new artillery shell is relatively cheap, since you don't have to build entire new weapon systems to use it; it's the kind of thing I'm unsurprised to see a company that specifically makes artillery doing. Their militaries may or may not ever actually adopt the extended-range rounds, depending on the exact balance of cost and capability the extended-range shells have relative to missiles. Plus European militaries- I can't comment on South Africa's- are all in that same situation of wanting to be able to cover very large areas with very few actual gun batteries, due to manpower restrictions. We're not operating under quite the same paradigm, even if it'd be lovely to have divisions 100 km apart able to "scratch one another's backs," so to speak.
 
I think GMLRS might actually be the superior alternative here. At a bare minimum it's looking close to competitive, as a tradeoff between being (probably) more expensive than a 155mm shell of comparable range but also being larger and hitting harder.
The use cases seem different though.
If the aim is to hit a concentrated force out of cover and static, or field HQs, or fuel dumps, things that dont move quickly, yes, GMLRS excels at throwing knockout punches like that.

If the forces are moving, to the best of my knowledge GMLRS is not designed to hit moving targets, just spots on the map. Continuous shellfire can, on the other hand, recalibrate to keep up with a moving force, and maintain the drumbeat of bombardment for minutes or hours at a time, as long as the battery does not need to relocate immediately and have a supply of ammo.

And you really can't use GMLRS in danger close situations the way you can smart howitzer rounds.
I mean, you could, but it's really not a good idea if you are looking to avoid fratricide.
Yes, but note that I cited the mass-production cost per unit of 35k per round, not 800k per round. I was deliberately using the cost the manufacturers cited for "this is how much they'd cost if we weren't making an absurdly small production run."
Fair.

I will point out that the US Army (and the Norwegians, actually) seem to be pursuing this as a cheaper, more flexible alternative to a full launcher or battery ripple of GMLRS or ATACMS/PRSM tactical missiles. Which suggests the economics are worth it compared to GMLRS, and presumably closer to the theoretical LRLAP cost quote, or at worst the costs for Excalibur, than the actual limited run production cost.

Yes, it's the rocket engines and ramjets and so on that start raising the price significantly... but those are the features you're proposing to add to the
One GMLRS rocket has cost comparable to a dozen 155mm guided rounds fired from within the range of 'conventional' 155mm artillery. A dozen 155mm shells put together will probably make a bigger dent in the enemy, too.

But when you start putting rocket/ramjet sustainers on the 155mm shells, the equation changes, because the cost of the shells goes up dramatically and the warhead weight goes down a little. By the time you've upgraded the range of the 155mm artillery to the kind of "multiple divisions supporting each other, range >100 km" performance we're discussing, your costs are quite high.
That depends very much on the cost. We have no hard numbers yet, on that front.

As I understand it, with the ramjet shell we're looking at a boostglide weapon, where the shell is kicked into boostphase and supersonic speed out of the barrel, the ramjet takes over at altitude and burns for a minute or less, using propellant and air, and the round then goes ballistic or aeroglides the rest of the way, with a top range of 150km.

Modern manufacturing processes like 3d printing techniques as well as newer propellant formulations allegedly change the cost calculation for single use ramjets. Sorta like how grenade launcher launched drones are now cheap enough to be in production because we're mass producing GPS chips and small radar/lidar units today.

Wait until the full implications of cheap, high quality cellphone-camera sensors and image recognition software hits the downmarket segment of the smart weapon industry the way it's hitting the private drone and satellite imaging sector.
Individual MLRS rockets weigh around 300 kg. Individual 155mm shells weigh around 40-45 kg. The MLRS rockets are much bulkier than individual 155mm shells, but are, again, harder-hitting. If we're comparing one MLRS rocket to three or four extreme range boosted 155mm shells (comparable cost), the MLRS rocket is indeed heavier- but the difference in weight and bulk isn't entirely overwhelming.

An MLRS battery has nine launchers, so a reload for the battery is 108 rockets. If we have one salvo in the launchers, plus two reloads, that's 324 rockets, total weight of all ammunition around 100 metric tons (roughly)... and 36 rockets per launch vehicle.

Now, a 155mm artillery battery could carry 36 rounds per gun in a much smaller total space. 36 155mm rounds will weigh about one and a half metric tons, and I don't know how many guns there are per battery but it's only going to be six or eight guns, maximum. But if they want to carry more ammunition per firing vehicle, it starts to add up pretty fast... and each 155mm shell is less impactful against the enemy than a single MLRS rocket would be.
1)Not just weight, but compactness.

You can carry artillery shells in basically any vehicle with cargo space at need, from trucks and boats to oxcarts to bicycles. And they are relatively robust rounds to manhandle and store.I'm assuming ramjet shells are still shells, not mini-missiles. GMLRS rockets require rather more specialized transport , handling and storage equipment and procedures, both for moving the rockets, and loading them in the first place.

2) Each MLRS launcher has it's own reload vehicle(s)with it's reloads.
OTOH, an eight wheeler HEMTT truck has a payload of roughly 10 metric tons, which is enough to carry one set of 36 reloads for an entire battery of 6x 155mm howitzers. Not counting the MAC-propellant charges of course.

The logistics equation is thus much easier to solve for howitzers.
And I say this as someone who thinks MLRS are an essential part of the artillery arm, and is looking forward to being able to nail VAF aircraft on the ground with naval- and MLRS-launched M31 rockets and PRSM missiles.

Yes- but by the same token the M31 rocket is carrying roughly 90 kg of explosives to the M107's seven or eight. It may not have proportionately as high a weight of shrapnel, but it's a much heavier category of munition.
Point of order: 90kg warhead.
There's one version with a unitary warhead for killing point targets like HQs, and an alternative warhead with preformed fragments for attacking area targets like infantry and light vehicles with an airburst detonation.

The explosive fraction of the M31's alternative warhead isn't stated, just that a significant fraction of the warhead is formed by about 180,000 preformed tungsten fragments. If it's anything like, say, the Mark 82 500 pound bomb, only 30-40% by weight would be explosives. If it's more like the LRLAP round, IIRC, you're looking at maybe 11% explosive fraction.

Forum poster on another website said the 90kg warhead only has 22kg explosive content(LINK), but I can't swear to it.
And I certainly dont have the foggiest idea of how the explosive payload compares in effectiveness; I doubt the difference between shell and missile is linear, but that's more gut feel than anything solid.
It's definitely a project and they're definitely working on it, but a lot of things get worked on that don't pay off. Developing a new artillery shell is relatively cheap, since you don't have to build entire new weapon systems to use it; it's the kind of thing I'm unsurprised to see a company that specifically makes artillery doing. Their militaries may or may not ever actually adopt the extended-range rounds, depending on the exact balance of cost and capability the extended-range shells have relative to missiles. Plus European militaries- I can't comment on South Africa's- are all in that same situation of wanting to be able to cover very large areas with very few actual gun batteries, due to manpower restrictions. We're not operating under quite the same paradigm, even if it'd be lovely to have divisions 100 km apart able to "scratch one another's backs," so to speak.
-True.

But ramjets are not new tech. They're not even new weapons; some of the first US missiles in the 1960s like the Bomarc SAM were ramjets, as were British SAMs like the Sea Dart and Bloodhound. There was even a 1950s ramjet engine that weighed about 13 pounds and was used in a prototype helicopter (Hiller Hornet, if you are interested in looking it up).

They just havent been economical at this size and configuration(solid propellant ramjet) before.

-Nammo is part owned by the Norwegian government(50%) with the other half owned by Patria, a Finnish company that is itself part owned by the Finnish govt(50.1%) and the Norwegian defense company Kongsberg Gruppen.
The incentives here seem to be very different from those on US private defence contractors.

-Less a manpower shortage as I understand it, and more that Russia has been acting up again.
And the Russian borders are close enough for the Scandinavians to count the bear's teeth when it yawns. Indirect fires that dont require sending expensive pilots and aircraft into the teeth of heavy SAM defense are back in fashion.

And since there is a practical limit to how much firepower you can maintain in peacetime, squeezing as much (economic) capability as you can out of them is probably a good idea.

-The South Africans just make really good arty, and have since apartheid times. Dunno why.
The Denel G6 155mm remains the longest ranged active service self-propelled howitzer in the world, and has held that record for almost two decades by this point.



This is the most public source information I have on the Norwegian round anyway.
There's a US one called the XM1113 rocket assisted projectile, which extends range to ~60+km, but I have insufficient knowledge of it.

www.edrmagazine.eu

Nammo ramjet artillery round: a game changer? - EDR Magazine

It is not the first time that a company decides to add jet propulsion to artillery rounds.
The technology chosen by Nammo, dubbed ExR for extreme range, will bring the range in the three-digit dimension, the Mach 3 velocity being maintained for around 50 seconds, a ramjet being inherently self-regulating maintaining a constant Mach number independently of altitude, allowing the round to hit a target at over 100 km; this means that one single artillery system will be able to cover an area of over 31,000 km2​ compared to the 5,000 km2​ covered by a current 155/52 mm artillery tube with extended range rounds.
The round is being designed to be fully compatible with the JBMOU L52 155, in order to allow it to be fired by any current system developed in accordance with that standard. The presence of the ramjet inevitably reduces the amount of explosive, Nammo declaring an amount of "HE explosive with similar weight as 120 mm round", which should mean between 3 and 3.5 kg. The warhead will be designed to neutralise soft targets, such as light armoured vehicles, radars, ground-based air defence systems, thus an HE-FRAG solution is foreseen, while no anti-armour effect is being considered. Nammo's 155 mm ExR is expected to have its first ballistic flight test in 2019/2020, probably without guidance, the company looking forward to have it operational in 2023-2024.



 
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So regarding advanced tech, let's just say a lot of it is still int the stage where it's to costly for mass production. Scientific progress kind of takes a back burner in times of global catastrophe.
 
So regarding advanced tech, let's just say a lot of it is still int the stage where it's to costly for mass production. Scientific progress kind of takes a back burner in times of global catastrophe.
Advanced technology today = Mundane/obsolete technology tomorrow.
Have you seen the cellphones of a decade ago, for example?

There WAS a worldwide Collapse.
The Collapse is over. Has been over for at least two decades worldwide, with most countries rebuilt or in recovery. North America just never came out of it because of enemy action by Russia and Japan.

And there is an arms race going on.
Unless you think everyone else would watch Russia/Japan/India destabilize multiple nuclear states and invade other First World countries like South Korea and not arm up in response. That generally does wonders for bringing down the costs and availability of military hardware.

There's more advanced tech out there somewhere, but it's not available to us, a Third World country of no particular influence, and wont be.
Just like Zambia cant buy F-35s today even if they somehow came up with the money.
But cutting edge technology from 2020/2030? Is going to be pretty mundane stuff by the late 2070s to mid 2080s.
 
Pretty sure in the interbellum period between this war and the time Victoria rebuilds from their little civil war we should be focusing on agriculture, diplomacy, and infrastructure primarily, all this talk of military equipment is good but we can barely feed ourselves and the strain that is putting on our neighbours is souring relations alongside geopolitical concerns/issues.

Additionally I think we need to be thinking about the longterm, do we want to make all of post collapse America into a single country as best we can or should we look into something more like the EU, where we have a federation or Commonwealth of Nations with open borders, shared economic policies, and mutual defence treaties.
 
Additionally I think we need to be thinking about the longterm, do we want to make all of post collapse America into a single country as best
Speaking of Unification Events: Anyone thinking of any cool quotes, Images and other such things that we'll need to think about.

I'm thinking about making a Hypothetical SUPER EVENT's if we were in a Hoi 4 mod, ala TNO.

Because I think it would add to the flavor of the quest, and based on Events we've already done.
 
I personally believe that a union of nations much like the EU of OTL is our best bet with California stating that they will not be subsumed by another nation even an American one. Now I don't know of unifications of smaller powers outside of our immediate sphere of power but I wouldn't mind some sort of liberal CSA (liberal not because it was always such but because southern POC will not stand for that shit anymore)

But the American Commonwealth's tentpole nations would be Cascadia, California and ourselves as the three that are the most developed militarily and industrially outside of Victoria. Additionally the union of nations angle is easier to swallow for native American nations that rather simply do not want to repeat history ever again.

Additionally for future wars with Victoria I want to use Treaties as a means of instituting social change within the nation. I want that nation to tear itself apart so no lost cause narrative can take hold in the country I want to shoot their ideological foundations to shit with treaties and watch them flounder and flail about inneffectually.

To do that I suggest cranking the Victorian economy wide open to trade with treaties. Which will be hard to implement as the Victorians can just burn all foreign products in "mass protests" or Civil Crusades but we can make superior products cheaper, meaning that market forces would put strife between the underclass and the leadership as Victorian industry simply cannot keep up, meaning the business class will have to adapt or die, as what amounts to Sears catalogues steals their business. I am under no illusion that the free market creates a democratic society as the PRC stands in direct opposition to that concept, but I want to do it to create civil pressure to be the catalyst for change.

Additionally we can make Victoria sign the UN charter of rights and freedoms, I don't expect that to be respected anytime soon after, but it puts a seed in the ground to germinate amidst the Victorian people, freedom of speech, freedom of belief, women's and racial Suffrage, all of which are powerful ideas that the Victorians have strangled in their pursuit of being like the "good" old days when men were men and america was "free".
 
I want that nation to tear itself apart so no lost cause narrative can take hold in the country I want to shoot their ideological foundations to shit with treaties and watch them flounder and flail about inneffectually.
Just find the Resistence and those with some degree of influence that want to liberalize for their own power and benefit, and then let the fall of the US play out on their soil, isolate the crazies to an isolated corner of the continent and make them nonvoting members of the union until they clean up their act and in no uncertain terms that if they try talking to Russia, they will get the Victorian Lesson and reap the whirlwind.
Additionally we can make Victoria sign the UN charter of rights and freedoms, I don't expect that to be respected anytime soon after, but it puts a seed in the ground to germinate amidst the Victorian people, freedom of speech, freedom of belief, women's and racial Suffrage, all of which are powerful ideas that the Victorians have strangled in their pursuit of being like the "good" old days when men were men and america was "free".
I hate to break it to you, I think the UN as a concept is dead...died in the collapse. If it still exists (even in a residual capacity) it's probably being used by Russia to peddle the Eviormentalist cause (A necessary action in this day in age.)

I'm assuming an unspoken agreement of sorts exist between the EU, The Australian Faction and China, but in terms of true unity and combined action, not really, Not with Alexander's finger floating over the button known as armageddon.

Edit: And their own problems and goals.
 
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Pretty sure in the interbellum period between this war and the time Victoria rebuilds from their little civil war we should be focusing on agriculture, diplomacy, and infrastructure primarily, all this talk of military equipment is good but we can barely feed ourselves and the strain that is putting on our neighbours is souring relations alongside geopolitical concerns/issues.
At this point the big obstacle to food security isn't so much agriculture per se as it is industrial. We're still struggling to get the tools to feed everyone out to 'everyone,' and our weak transportation infrastructure makes feeding everyone even harder.

Additionally I think we need to be thinking about the longterm, do we want to make all of post collapse America into a single country as best we can or should we look into something more like the EU, where we have a federation or Commonwealth of Nations with open borders, shared economic policies, and mutual defence treaties.
I don't think we can make intelligent, informed decisions about that until we have a better sense for the shape of the future reassembled America. The big X-factor is, "How does California feel about this?" California may not want to join a future Restored United States of America, and between having their own nuclear arsenal and a probable territorial base including much of the American Southwest, they don't have to if they don't want to.

Meanwhile, huge swathes of the American southern, midwestern, and Mid-Atlantic regions will probably want to join something, but will be so impoverished that dragging them out of it will be the project of generations.

But the American Commonwealth's tentpole nations would be Cascadia, California and ourselves as the three that are the most developed militarily and industrially outside of Victoria. Additionally the union of nations angle is easier to swallow for native American nations that rather simply do not want to repeat history ever again.
Cascadia is under Japanese colonial occupation.

The Free City of New York is currently the secondmost powerful independent state in America that isn't Victoria or otherwise Russia-controlled. The NCR will, on declaring independence, immediately catapult itself into first place- but the FCNY is still a player. If Victoria is decisively beaten they will almost certainly extend their control, and are probably taking steps to do that already in the present moment.

Additionally for future wars with Victoria I want to use Treaties as a means of instituting social change within the nation. I want that nation to tear itself apart so no lost cause narrative can take hold in the country I want to shoot their ideological foundations to shit with treaties and watch them flounder and flail about inneffectually.
I don't think General Blackwell is going to be stupid enough to agree to that. I think he's going to hold off on fighting a future war until he thinks he can win, or at least can not lose too badly.

See, the Victorian elite aren't some kind of nonsapient mass we can just passively mold into doing our bidding, even at gunpoint. They're very well aware that their continued power and maybe even survival depend on maintaining control of Victorian society. They will do as much lying and oppression of their own people as necessary to make that happen.

Think of them as fascist North Korea.
 
Pretty sure in the interbellum period between this war and the time Victoria rebuilds from their little civil war we should be focusing on agriculture, diplomacy, and infrastructure primarily, all this talk of military equipment is good but we can barely feed ourselves and the strain that is putting on our neighbours is souring relations alongside geopolitical concerns/issues.
Its pretty much impossible to theorycraft most of those things OOC without a good look at the current state of disgoverned America.
Agriculture, infrastructure and economics are largely below the level of abstraction, and we don't know OOC who the other smaller political players are, so no diplomacy plans until we do.

A lot of things are waiting on the diplomatic conference to finish and the rest of the world to open up.
Additionally I think we need to be thinking about the longterm, do we want to make all of post collapse America into a single country as best we can or should we look into something more like the EU, where we have a federation or Commonwealth of Nations with open borders, shared economic policies, and mutual defence treaties.
We are Revivalists.

That implicitly assumes we want the United States back. Not identical to what it was, and with significant reforms to the legal framework, but we are going to be reaching out and laying claim to all of the old US, from Puerto Rico to Hawaii and the Pacific territories, from Alaska to Florida. And new entrants will probably be welcome.

There may well be some accommodations with former US territories that democratically decided they prefer independence.
But landgrabs will not be respected, nor will ethnic cleansing as a method of packing the voting population.
I am willing to eventually go to war to pry Hawaii out of Japanese hands for example.

They are not forgotten.
I personally believe that a union of nations much like the EU of OTL is our best bet with California stating that they will not be subsumed by another nation even an American one. Now I don't know of unifications of smaller powers outside of our immediate sphere of power but I wouldn't mind some sort of liberal CSA (liberal not because it was always such but because southern POC will not stand for that shit anymore)
NO.
The US tried that once. It's called a confederation. They suck, and are uniquely vulnerable to external interference.
There's a reason why the EU in this TL has progressively federalized in the face of Russian Imperial aggression.

And California has stated no such thing. Revivalist sentiment is popular, and not just in the Commonwealth.
But the American Commonwealth's tentpole nations would be Cascadia, California and ourselves as the three that are the most developed militarily and industrially outside of Victoria. Additionally the union of nations angle is easier to swallow for native American nations that rather simply do not want to repeat history ever again.
Cascadia is an insurgent-ridden Japanese possession at the moment that will need liberation and approximately a hundred years of therapy. Economically it's better off than we are, but securitywise and politically its way, way worse off.

And you are straight up ignoring FCNY, the single most diplomatically powerful entity on the continent, as well as the second wealthiest after Cali.
Or Florida, which the GM has carefully kept behind the curtain.
And Georgia and Texas.

The percentage of native Americans in the US is 2%.
Most of them do not live on reservations. The old US's relationship with native Americans might be particularly fraught, but that doesnt translate to their preferring being herded into bantustans. Native American reservations are generally non-viable as independent entities anyway; they were deliberately pushed into the least valuable land.

There are probably polities strongly-influenced by a native American demographic.
But thats not going to be enough to outright ignore the empirical evidence of what happens to small polities in a Russian Imperium-controlled world.
Additionally for future wars with Victoria I want to use Treaties as a means of instituting social change within the nation. I want that nation to tear itself apart so no lost cause narrative can take hold in the country I want to shoot their ideological foundations to shit with treaties and watch them flounder and flail about inneffectually.
How? How do you intend to that? What stops them from stopping you?

To do that I suggest cranking the Victorian economy wide open to trade with treaties. Which will be hard to implement as the Victorians can just burn all foreign products in "mass protests" or Civil Crusades but we can make superior products cheaper, meaning that market forces would put strife between the underclass and the leadership as Victorian industry simply cannot keep up, meaning the business class will have to adapt or die, as what amounts to Sears catalogues steals their business. I am under no illusion that the free market creates a democratic society as the PRC stands in direct opposition to that concept, but I want to do it to create civil pressure to be the catalyst for change.
How?

How do you expect to get them to comply with any sufficiently onerous treaties once their civil war is over and they have reorganized sufficiently to get back on their feet and make their economy sufficiently redundant to survive getting cut off from the Lakes? The treaties we imposed on Victoria were in a unique window of weakness and potential societal collapse, and are unlikely to be repeated in the aftermath of the next war.

We currently have them by the balls. But that wont last.

Additionally we can make Victoria sign the UN charter of rights and freedoms, I don't expect that to be respected anytime soon after, but it puts a seed in the ground to germinate amidst the Victorian people, freedom of speech, freedom of belief, women's and racial Suffrage, all of which are powerful ideas that the Victorians have strangled in their pursuit of being like the "good" old days when men were men and america was "free".
How? How do you propose to enforce any such thing? Seed in the ground in a country with secret police and officially sanctioned lynch mobs?

Victoria is barely 40 years old. Most of the oldsters remember living in a country that protected all those things.
New York's TV and radio market is literally off the shore of Victoria. None of that has done shit. Because Victoria's ruling elite may be crazy but they're not stupid, and Alexei's Russian Imperium has acted as a safety blanket for when they fuck up.

The endgame in my opinion is the military destruction of Victoria as both an ideology and a political entity, and the reintegration of it's populations into a reformed US, returning Quebec to Canada. I'd take diplomacy if it could be done that way, but I don't think it can. Not alone. Thoughts and prayers haven't done anything in the last four decades except allow them attempt to impose their shit on as many people as they can.

So the hard way it is. To the shores of Maine.
Then Reconstruction, and liberation of Quebec.
 
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So the hard way it is. To the shores of Maine.
Then Reconstruction, and liberation of Quebec.
Here Here...Thats the Plan.

The problem is getting to that point with out Russia literally turning North America into something resembling the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone or...

The Worse Case Senario, Russian Colonization, why deal with the American ideals when you can just replace them all with loyal subjects to the Tsar. It's an unrealistic Plan, but a plan that might exist.
 
Here Here...Thats the Plan.
The problem is getting to that point with out Russia literally turning North America into something resembling the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone or...

The Worse Case Senario, Russian Colonization, why deal with the American ideals when you can just replace them all with loyal subjects to the Tsar. It's an unrealistic Plan, but a plan that might exist.
Russia is not going to nuke North America now when they didn't during the Collapse.
Any more than the US nuked North Vietnam before, or is nuking Iraq and Afghanistan today. Any more than they can afford to put troops in Cali.
Gets them nothing besides a lot of heat, and might well have them nuked in retaliation by someone elses itchy trigger finger.

Russia does not have the population to colonize North America either.
And they have multiple Great Powers on their border, with the EU in the west and China in the east, with regional powers along the periphery as well as captive populations who have opinions about being conquered during the Fall.

Their hegemony is a lot more fragile than it seems, and there are many more players around now.

Note that its canon for this quest that it was the international broadcasts of the war that prevented Alex attempting to resupply the trapped Vic army by air. But the diplomatic heat was not worth the trouble of preserving an army of almost sixty thousand people.
That's a pretty startling demonstration of the limits of the Russian Imperium.
 
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Gets them nothing besides a lot of heat
I meant that in the case of A Hypothetical, considering we have the Heir of Alexander coming to our place and any bad thing that happens would lead to an instant game over.

I've got to lay off the TNO a little bit, Its making me jump at shadows that everything we do against Russia will lead to a nuclear annihilation
That's a pretty startling demonstration of the limits of the Russian Imperium.
From the point of View of the CFC, we haven't seen a lot of those limits, When reading the quest I haven't seen many of those limits, only horror stories of the Boogyman of Russia getting ready to literally end all we've worked for on a whim.

I'm sorry if I sound Doom and gloom at this moment, but until greater attention and intelligence can be gathered on the Weakness of Russia's greater flaws and the state and power of its enemies, I'm looking at the possibility of a Superpower destroying everything as an eventuality rather then a possibility.

Because we KNOW California is going to get their attention, and who's to say Alex doesn't roll up his sleeves one last time and eliminate the NCR's ability to rebel from the equation outright. And who's to say they won't make a few passes and give us a few hits.
 
How?

How do you expect to get them to comply with any sufficiently onerous treaties once their civil war is over and they have reorganized sufficiently to get back on their feet and make their economy sufficiently redundant to survive getting cut off from the Lakes? The treaties we imposed on Victoria were in a unique window of weakness and potential societal collapse, and are unlikely to be repeated in the aftermath of the next war.

We currently have them by the balls. But that wont last.

I am presuming we beat him as badly as we have again, completely shattered victorias armies because I quite frankly cannot imagine them modernizing to the same degree we are, meaning they will still be a step behind technologically and doctrinally as even if they fix their military doctrines their officer corps will be small and set in it's ways. the thing about the civil war is that both sides are still going to be using victorias stupid 4th generation warfar bullshit, I can see blackwell needing to win his next war with us as if he does not he will lose so much face it doesn't matter that he won the civil war, the loss of the war and the treaty with us would fracture if not shatter his support base.

doesn't matter if we are dealing with american north korea if the dear leaders generals are wondering if the dear leader can lead the country when he lost a war against the same enemy he lost the last war against, which gets combined with the business men of victoria being split on modernizing the manufacturing which would still be behind our own in scale and sophistication and the poor getting and then losing cheaper foreign goods to pastors leading lynch mobs, basically the next treaty is meant to create political faultlines that we can exploit in the next victorian regime which would be a united front following the civilwar and purges.
 
I meant that in the case of A Hypothetical, considering we have the Heir of Alexander coming to our place and any bad thing that happens would lead to an instant game over.
I've got to lay off the TNO a little bit, Its making me jump at shadows that everything we do against Russia will lead to a nuclear annihilation
If Russia wants to trash us they'd use cruise missile strikes, air raids and special forces.
No nukes necessary.
They do not benefit from reducing the threshold of nuclear use.

From the point of View of the CFC, we haven't seen a lot of those limits, When reading the quest I haven't seen many of those limits, only horror stories of the Boogyman of Russia getting ready to literally end all we've worked for on a whim.

I'm sorry if I sound Doom and gloom at this moment, but until greater attention and intelligence can be gathered on the Weakness of Russia's greater flaws and the state and power of its enemies, I'm looking at the possibility of a Superpower destroying everything as an eventuality rather then a possibility.

Because we KNOW California is going to get their attention, and who's to say Alex doesn't roll up his sleeves one last time and eliminate the NCR's ability to rebel from the equation outright. And who's to say they won't make a few passes and give us a few hits.
1)We're a Third World country in the ass end of nowhere.
Of course we havent seen much of them. Doesnt mean they dont exist, or that we cant recognize them when they do show up.
Catherine showing up in Chicago is a sign of one of them. She's here and not in Augusta, remember?

2)California has nukes and can retaliate. Whether they have missiles to launch them, drones to carry them, or will simply smuggle them into a Russian city overland is unknown. Alexander is not going to be willing to pay the price necessary to nuke Cali; he can kill California, but the retaliation will cripple his Empire badly enough that his other enemies will devour it alive.

I am presuming we beat him as badly as we have again, completely shattered victorias armies because I quite frankly cannot imagine them modernizing to the same degree we are, meaning they will still be a step behind technologically and doctrinally as even if they fix their military doctrines their officer corps will be small and set in it's ways. the thing about the civil war is that both sides are still going to be using victorias stupid 4th generation warfar bullshit, I can see blackwell needing to win his next war with us as if he does not he will lose so much face it doesn't matter that he won the civil war, the loss of the war and the treaty with us would fracture if not shatter his support base.
1)Youre making assumptions about the magnitude of future victories. That's unwise.

2)Tyrannies have never had any problem justifying the adoption of military technologies and luxuries for their elites.
Regardless of their ideologies. The fact that the civilians of North Korea dont have cellphones, computers or internet access does not mean the elites dont, as you'll sometimes see Kim currently carrying a cellphone in pictures, or NK hackers performing cybercrime or cyberwarfare.

3)We literally just killed like 90% of their old army, and Blackwell arrested the rest of the functional officer corps.
The only section of their armed forces that will look anything like the old one is the Air Force, and that's because they are currently PoWs.
They're probably going to end up importing trainers from Russia and the Russosphere, and sending exchange students abroad to build a new army.

4)They wont have any problem modernizing after this catastrophe.
We killed over 2% of their male population, and more than 5% of their militarily eligible male population. And that doesnt count the civil war losses.
They cant afford to fight a light infantry war anymore, and they remain richer than us, with a sugardaddy.

Expect armor and aircraft. Lots of them.

There's a good chance they'll be more heavily armed than we are, and as modern, if not more so.
If for no other reason than that we'll be throwing large portions of our budget and whatever aid we receive at our civilian economy, and not just the military-industrial complex. While they already have an infrastructural base, and care lesss about civies anyway.

Even their navy will get upgraded, though it wont receive the emphasis we give ours.

doesn't matter if we are dealing with american north korea if the dear leaders generals are wondering if the dear leader can lead the country when he lost a war against the same enemy he lost the last war against, which gets combined with the business men of victoria being split on modernizing the manufacturing which would still be behind our own in scale and sophistication and the poor getting and then losing cheaper foreign goods to pastors leading lynch mobs, basically the next treaty is meant to create political faultlines that we can exploit in the next victorian regime which would be a united front following the civilwar and purges.
1)It matters. Dictators lose wars and remain in power. Toxic ideologies lose wars and persist.

Kim Il Sung held on to power for his entire life, despite launching and losing a catastrophic invasion of South Korea.
Pol Pot killed a quarter of Cambodia, and it still took a foreign invasion by Vietnam to overthrow him, not some internal rejection. He retreated to the jungle with his followers and fought an unsuccessful insurgency for twenty years before a subordinate finally overthrew him.

Blackwell doesnt even need to retain power; the Victorian state and its elites can change leaders and still maintain the same toxic ideology and course of action just fine. Just like he just overthrew the current lot.

2)Lynch mobs dont mean shit if the authorities are willing to machinegun them.
And the Vics are quite willing to do just that to people they dont like, internal or external.
They've disappeared towns in Victoria before, and openly threatened to murder everyone in Buffalo.
 
Noting that I agree with the rest of what you said...

2)California has nukes and can retaliate. Whether they have missiles to launch them, drones to carry them, or will simply smuggle them into a Russian city overland is unknown. Alexander is not going to be willing to pay the price necessary to nuke Cali; he can kill California, but the retaliation will cripple his Empire badly enough that his other enemies will devour it alive.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you yourself have pointed out that Alexander has brought down nuclear powers before, more than once, when other people told you that various nations' nuclear arsenals would serve to discourage the Russians from trying anything too bold.

For consistency's sake, it should be pointed out that Alexander may honestly think he has the wherewithal to deal with the Californian nuclear threat, if he even learns that it exists.

(One drawback of having your nuclear weapon program in secret is that if you don't actually test any of your nuclear weapons, nobody knows you have them and when you claim to have them people will suspect you of bluffing)
 
Noting that I agree with the rest of what you said...

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you yourself have pointed out that Alexander has brought down nuclear powers before, more than once, when other people told you that various nations' nuclear arsenals would serve to discourage the Russians from trying anything too bold.

For consistency's sake, it should be pointed out that Alexander may honestly think he has the wherewithal to deal with the Californian nuclear threat, if he even learns that it exists.

(One drawback of having your nuclear weapon program in secret is that if you don't actually test any of your nuclear weapons, nobody knows you have them and when you claim to have them people will suspect you of bluffing)
Oh yeah, agreed.
But Cyber was worrying about California straight up getting nuked, not getting destabilized. Outright nuclear warfare or counterforce strikes would draw nuclear retaliation. Destabilization is subtler, and works on a longer time scale.

Which actually suggests that the Commonwealth reaching out a hand to the NCR if/when they break loose might have a salutary effect on internal stability by buying them support/forbearance of Revivalists, which helps immunize them against a bunch of Alexei's old tricks.
Would be nice to think the Commonwealth brings something to the table.

As for Cali's nukes,I assume they're basically old US designs.
No need to repeat testing if the design has already been validated; the US is still using variants of the old B61 nuclear bomb in it's arsenal, and its a 1963 design. Almost sixty years old.

Besides, allegedly you don't really need RL testing these days if you have access to good enough computer modelling, and Cali inherited a lot of that.
Which is why the US doesnt do nuclear testing any longer, even underground.

I think he knows they exist. I don't think he can pin down their location, but I expect he knows they exist.
I just don't think he's willing to press the issue as long as it's been a covert arsenal.
Just like Israel officially does not have a nuclear program.
 
But Cyber was worrying about California straight up getting nuked, not getting destabilized
That was me playing too much TNO and not remembering the greater subplot of destabilization of the world being a key goal of the Antagonist of the mod, to get to nueclear war.

@uju32 that was me coming down from an afternoon of a particularly intense deep dive into TNO...and letting that sort of thing cloud my rationale of the time.

More realistically, I'd say a godfather style killing of the overall government, and placing key supporters of Russian interests in charge is actually more likely, and the resulting civil war (To clean up the rest of the Revivalists) will keep his hands clean and get rid of Cali's nukes and strangle what is left of the continent forever.

Or at least until the empire collapses in about say 50 or 60 more years.
 
That was me playing too much TNO and not remembering the greater subplot of destabilization of the world being a key goal of the Antagonist of the mod, to get to nueclear war.
@uju32 that was me coming down from an afternoon of a particularly intense deep dive into TNO...and letting that sort of thing cloud my rationale of the time.
Aight. It's cool.
More realistically, I'd say a godfather style killing of the overall government, and placing key supporters of Russian interests in charge is actually more likely, and the resulting civil war (To clean up the rest of the Revivalists) will keep his hands clean and get rid of Cali's nukes and strangle what is left of the continent forever.

Or at least until the empire collapses in about say 50 or 60 more years.
Wouldn't work. That the main parties are all working on this means there's no credible candidate to play Quisling.

And NCR Intelligence has to be pretty damn good to manage the number of plots they are currently juggling, between Cali independence and Commonwealth involvement. An attempt at hitting the government using Russian assassins would get stopped in short order, and traced back to Moscow. And probably blown all over the news.

And frankly I don't think Russia has ever had the capability to put boots on the ground in Cali.
Consider how many hundreds of thousands were necessary to invade Iraq in this TL, and how much it has cost, and Iraq was never a first world country with first world country technological resources. Then look at all the Russian Empire's commitments.

That sort of thing would be fucking bloody, and would seriously weaken them while they have wolves at the gates in the form of China and the EU, with the various power blocs in South America and Sub-Saharan Africa gaining in strength.
That's why they have the Vics. Had the Vics.

Oops. Did we do that?
steveurkel.jpg
:p
 
Oh yeah, agreed.
But Cyber was worrying about California straight up getting nuked, not getting destabilized. Outright nuclear warfare or counterforce strikes would draw nuclear retaliation. Destabilization is subtler, and works on a longer time scale.

Which actually suggests that the Commonwealth reaching out a hand to the NCR if/when they break loose might have a salutary effect on internal stability by buying them support/forbearance of Revivalists, which helps immunize them against a bunch of Alexei's old tricks.
Would be nice to think the Commonwealth brings something to the table.

As for Cali's nukes,I assume they're basically old US designs.
No need to repeat testing if the design has already been validated; the US is still using variants of the old B61 nuclear bomb in it's arsenal, and its a 1963 design. Almost sixty years old.

Besides, allegedly you don't really need RL testing these days if you have access to good enough computer modelling, and Cali inherited a lot of that.
Which is why the US doesnt do nuclear testing any longer, even underground.

I think he knows they exist. I don't think he can pin down their location, but I expect he knows they exist.
I just don't think he's willing to press the issue as long as it's been a covert arsenal.
Just like Israel officially does not have a nuclear program.
On the other hand, if the Californians are relying on pre-Collapse American delivery vehicle technology, he may honestly think he can tank their best shot, depending on how good his own military defensive technology was.

(I suspect that one part of the answer to "so how was Alexander daring enough to muscle in on Pakistan and maybe Israel despite them having nuclear ballistic missiles" was "a very beefy upgrade to Russian ABM systems")

I'm not saying Alexander DOES, to be clear. But he might.
 
What kind of Russia is this anyway? A very imperialistic one, sure, but what kind though?
Is Aleksandr's regime built upon a sort of czarism, somewhat Putin/Stalin-like, with eco-fascist tendencies?

With the environmental stuff, I'm assuming that the Czar has taken a socialistic side to economics.
Aleksandr disliking the Soviet Union doesn't make much sense, russian nationalists love both the Russian Empire and the USSR, just look at the new Armed Forces Cathedral that was just built, very Warhammer-like.

Is this Russian Imperium openly ethno-nationalist, favoring ethnic Russians and Russified-others above all, or is it more pan-Slavic or even western style white nationalistic?

How about the various minorities of the Russian Federation proper, the Tartars, Bashkirs, Chechens, Tuvans, etc, have they all been liquidated or are they undergoing forced Russification and assimilation into becoming ethnic Russians, as they are nowadays anyway but like faster.

I'm assuming that with the tech base on hand, would vat-grown babies be possible? Birth rates are low currently in Russia, ever since the USSR fell, but in order to keep up with all of Russia's conquests, I'm sure that there are programs in place to maintain and grow the ethnically Russian population.
 
Yeah. There's a tendency for certain people to think "environmentalism is a lefty concern, socialism is lefty, so being environmentalist makes you socialist and vice versa."

That's... not entirely true. Environmentalism does tend to make people a bit more skeptical of specifically free market capitalism, granted. But there are a lot of ways for the autocratic ruler of a nation to justify their environmentalist concerns, without invoking "redistribute the wealth and put means of production in the hands of the workers."

Alexander takes power, in-setting, some time in the 2020s. To a man of that era, it is no more necessary to adopt a specific ideology to justify opposition to global warming than it would be to adopt a specific ideology to justify building flood control levees. Because socialist and capitalist nations alike build levees, fight forest fires, and otherwise attempt to secure their society against natural disasters. It only becomes a political or ideological issue when the existence of the natural disaster in question becomes a political football that one faction or another engineers a controversy over.

What kind of Russia is this anyway? A very imperialistic one, sure, but what kind though?
Is Aleksandr's regime built upon a sort of czarism, somewhat Putin/Stalin-like, with eco-fascist tendencies?

With the environmental stuff, I'm assuming that the Czar has taken a socialistic side to economics.
Aleksandr disliking the Soviet Union doesn't make much sense, russian nationalists love both the Russian Empire and the USSR, just look at the new Armed Forces Cathedral that was just built, very Warhammer-like.

Is this Russian Imperium openly ethno-nationalist, favoring ethnic Russians and Russified-others above all, or is it more pan-Slavic or even western style white nationalistic?

How about the various minorities of the Russian Federation proper, the Tartars, Bashkirs, Chechens, Tuvans, etc, have they all been liquidated or are they undergoing forced Russification and assimilation into becoming ethnic Russians, as they are nowadays anyway but like faster.

I'm assuming that with the tech base on hand, would vat-grown babies be possible? Birth rates are low currently in Russia, ever since the USSR fell, but in order to keep up with all of Russia's conquests, I'm sure that there are programs in place to maintain and grow the ethnically Russian population.
@PoptartProdigy 's worldbuilding is an ongoing process, and I suspect that many of the answers to these questions are still under development. Note that so far the answers don't really matter to us directly, and Poptart has concentrated their effort (in the face of very adverse work conditions, from the sound of it...) on the specific pieces of worldbuilding that actually matter.

Personally I'd rather wait on the answers to questions like this until Poptart is sure they've got things fully fleshed out, rather than pressure the QM to give off-the-cuff answers.
 
Yeah. There's a tendency for certain people to think "environmentalism is a lefty concern, socialism is lefty, so being environmentalist makes you socialist and vice versa."

That's... not entirely true. Environmentalism does tend to make people a bit more skeptical of specifically free market capitalism, granted. But there are a lot of ways for the autocratic ruler of a nation to justify their environmentalist concerns, without invoking "redistribute the wealth and put means of production in the hands of the workers."

Alexander takes power, in-setting, some time in the 2020s. To a man of that era, it is no more necessary to adopt a specific ideology to justify opposition to global warming than it would be to adopt a specific ideology to justify building flood control levees. Because socialist and capitalist nations alike build levees, fight forest fires, and otherwise attempt to secure their society against natural disasters. It only becomes a political or ideological issue when the existence of the natural disaster in question becomes a political football that one faction or another engineers a controversy over.

@PoptartProdigy 's worldbuilding is an ongoing process, and I suspect that many of the answers to these questions are still under development. Note that so far the answers don't really matter to us directly, and Poptart has concentrated their effort (in the face of very adverse work conditions, from the sound of it...) on the specific pieces of worldbuilding that actually matter.

Personally I'd rather wait on the answers to questions like this until Poptart is sure they've got things fully fleshed out, rather than pressure the QM to give off-the-cuff answers.
So far Environmentalism seems to be the princesses main focus and Alexander probably doesn't care about issues of race beyond a way to divide and rule people. He's fine with the Victorians being basically diet Nazis, but actually Nazi's like Von Braun and the Landwehr are a bridge too far both as a Russian and because they'd probably be too ambitious for him.
 
So is it intentional that Burns is written as the good (Both in the moral send and the sense that they're better written) version of Rumford? They're both ex serviceman who help to found U.S. successor states and play a role in both governing and the military. The difference is Burns is loyal to his country to the end, whereas Rumford gets dishonorably discharged for being a disrespectful dick bag to a female CO and turns to domestic terrorism and eventually treason with the help of a foreign monarch. Burns also spends his time before the start of the story in one direct conflict after another whereas Rumford never directly sees any action and spends the latter half of the book as an armchair general commanding others in combat. Lastly Rumfords fourth generation warfare throws out established doctrine such as proper supply lines and understanding terrain and weather, whereas Burns constantly sticks with what he's learned.
 
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