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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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065tdsa said:
Of course not, I said relatively sane, as in by victorian standards. He'll do measured atrocities for specific purposes, rather than try to maximize them at all times, which is what we could expect from other victorians if they get it into their heads that we're squeamish. I'm not saying he's a good guy, I'm saying he can think and so he's not likely to deliberately do things like strap various undesirables to his tanks to intimidate us, if only because of the logistical issues of carrying so many live prisoners around.

(sub)Human ablative armor is totally something I'd expect from the CMC, along with Child Martyrs of Victoria units and other such nonsense.
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Blackwell genuinely believe that it is better to be dead that to be part of the machine-state, better heaven than soulless earth. He will use human-ablative armor and believe he is doing them a favor when we actually invade Victoria for good.
 
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clockworkchaos said:
Blackwell genuinely believe that it is better to be dead that to be part of the machine-state. He will use human-ablative armor and believe he is doing them a favor when we actually invade Victoria for good.
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And only when we're invading Victoria. Because carrying several thousand people around with the army to strap them onto your vehicles before charging forward would only be suitably demoralizing if they were alive, and that'd be a headache to arrange. He'll use them if we are attacking and they are there, sure, but he's a victorian so duh.

The difference is the Crusaders really would carry people to the front to use for such purposes if they were attacking us rather than the other way around. This is because they are stupid.
 
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picklepikkl said:
It is a loaded topic because a lot of people, since the last update, have been railing against the Farmers/peace movement as enemies of the state/fifth columnists/Victorian agents and coming up with ways to politically suppress them. As such, the joke that they are antidemocratic in their aims was in poor taste, because it feeds into the hostility that's been ongoing for the last few days.

And I say this as someone who does not identify with the Farmers/leftists and who voted to continue the war.
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I haven't really read much hostility against the Farmers Party, but then again, i haven't been following the discussion religiously. In that case, i apologize.
 
Chronic said:
I haven't really read much hostility against the Farmers Party, but then again, i haven't been following the discussion religiously. In that case, i apologize.
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There were one or two posters that were ralling against them as a sort of bogeyman that felt very ironic in so many ways and funny but not in a ha-ha way, that were getting on the nerves of several posters.
Still, I don't think your joke comment carried the same style, it was less "Th3 Ev1lll!" and made me chuckle.
Though, that being said you do have a point we might come into subversion type attacks sooner than latter, and the more successful we are, we might be sooner,.

BUT, the world has turned, I am sure the European Democracies might have ways around the issue, they have to or else they'd been rolled over by Alex, but that is for a diplo effort
 
One fact that everyone is forgetting is that the CMC wont be just sitting around with their thumbs up their asses. they will be doing stuff offscreen and we will have to deal with them eventually because they will come after us whether or not we defeat Blackwell. And we need a peace treaty sooner rather than later. And god help us if Blackwell gets killed since that effectively wins the war for the CMC>
 
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[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.


[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
 
Rivenscryr said:
And if the people voted to be independent from Victoria, we would have every justification to help them find a new place to live where they wouldn't be under threat. I believe the population of Buffalo is also considerably smaller than that of Toledo or Detroit as well, so I doubt think it would be as much of a strain as we think - we have millions of refugees. 50k is a drop in the bucket.
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Just to note this, I feel like people are underestimating significantly the challenges of incorporating potentially as many as 50-70k civilians who are suddenly dropped on our doorstep. Even if we already have a refugee crisis, I don't think that's grounds to just chuck a few thousand more onto the pile. Especially when those people are Victorians who essentially had a gun in their backs to move here now or face the wrath of Blackwell. Whether we deliberately put it there or not, it's there all the same, and just because Blackwell was going to do purges anyway does not mean that they'll just shrug off our making those purges significantly worse for them. They'll need massive jobs retraining because they only know how to use 1950s era technology and we have over a century's head start on them in literally every industry. Wherever we house them, I guarantee people won't be happy having a Vick for a neighbor, so that along with culture shock and the other difficulties of integration unique to Victorians will create challenges which I personally find hard to brush off. We're already integrating Detroit and Toledo politically and hooking them up to our social safety net, and we know OOC and IC that that will likely pose significant challenges all on its own. We also want to potentially crash industrialize or squeeze Blackwell if we get him to the table. Having to move and absorb this population will significantly restrict our freedom of action next turn, and exacerbate a crisis that we're already trying to deal with. I understand that right now we feel pressed for time, and the civilians are a hell of a pickle no matter how you slice it, but this both gives them no choice other than "come with me if you want to live" and commits us to dealing with yet another thorny problem when we already have a hefty plate of them.

It also, I think, relies on the assumption that Blackwell's not feeling the pinch, or that because he let the last two actions go he can sit there until we make him move. But he'll be battling substantial internal pressures already, not least the civil war which he's fighting against Crusaders who get more time to train their 20,000 conscripts past the militia's level of experience the more he refrains from bringing all his forces to bear. He's gotta be copping some immense flak from the hardliners for letting us just waltz into Vick territory while simultaneously failing to put down the Crusaders. And although he got the harvest in, barely, he's got spring planting to worry about, and every division he keeps to try and wait us out is another few thousand people not helping with that. He's gambling that we'll break before the Crusaders put a knife in his back or they get a famine.

I know none of our options here are good, but I just feel like maybe we're being too quick to write this stuff off as a non-issue and confuse a lack of information on what's going on within Victoria with proof that Blackwell's situation is any more stable than ours when I think there's substantial evidence that it's almost definitely not. I dunno, maybe someone smarter than me can figure it out, but I think we should at least give these problems some serious consideration before we decide our next move, and see if putting Buffalo in this position really is the best option long-term.
 
Anime_Fan35 said:
One fact that everyone is forgetting is that the CMC wont be just sitting around with their thumbs up their asses. they will be doing stuff offscreen and we will have to deal with them eventually because they will come after us whether or not we defeat Blackwell. And we need a peace treaty sooner rather than later. And god help us if Blackwell gets killed since that effectively wins the war for the CMC
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I don't think anyone is actually forgetting this, as you put it. We know that they and Blackwell are up to something in areas where we have little intel, given the rumors of battles around the Finger Lakes. Now, who is winning those battle - if they're happening - and the degree of the victories or defeats, we don't actually know.

Let's also remember something else - that in the long run, Blackwell is far more dangerous to us than the CMC, given that he seeks to take drastic military reform to enable VIctoria to fight us. This is something that the CMC Crusaders explicitly found unacceptable, as it would mean that they would no longer enjoy the privileged position they've held for many, many years.

If we open a plebiscite, Blackwell has to respond, and not just with a token force, because Victoria - and Blackwell, who seeks to rule it - cannot even appear to support secession - and worse, secession in response to the atrocities he and the CMC inflicted upon the Buffalo population. If he doesn't respond with an attack of sufficient force to be deemed as a credible attempt at dislodging us, then he has crippled his own legitimacy and may very well face assassination.

You do remember that the Victorians believe that "the moral is to the physical as three to one," right? What does it say to militia if they're being ordered not to attack, but simply to siege, or to garrison surrounding towns? To Joe Farmer and friends, does it inspire confidence that the man in charge knows what he's doing, or has any intention of actually rooting out secession / rebellion? To his allies (the Inquisitors, who have explicitly denounced the Crusaders as not being ideologically pure enough), does he look like someone who has Victoria's interests at heart - or does he look like someone willing to surrender Victoria's soul?


CthuluWasRight said:
Just to note this, I feel like people are underestimating significantly the challenges of incorporating potentially as many as 50-70k civilians who are suddenly dropped on our doorstep. Even if we already have a refugee crisis, I don't think that's grounds to just chuck a few thousand more onto the pile.
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There will certainly be challenges - I have never attempted to deny this. I stand, however, by my previous statement, that compared to the burden of the millions of refugees already in the Commonwealth, 50-75k is a drop in the bucket.
 
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Rivenscryr said:
There will certainly be challenges - I have never attempted to deny this. I stand, however, by my previous statement, that compared to the burden of the millions of refugees already in the Commonwealth, 50-75k is a drop in the bucket.
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If your boat's taking on water it doesn't make sense to just throw another bucketful in there.
 
[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.
 
Rivenscryr said:
Well, what's your alternative to "throwing another bucketful in there", then? It has already been stated by @PoptartProdigy that we'll be evacuating anyone who asks for it, regardless of the option we choose.
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As stated above, I'm still trying to figure that out. But either declaring Buffalo's independence or letting them have a plebiscite are a surefire method of forcing the largest number of people to leave possible.
 
CthuluWasRight said:
As stated above, I'm still trying to figure that out. But either declaring Buffalo's independence or letting them have a plebiscite are a surefire method of forcing the largest number of people to leave possible.
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So I understand then, your position is that we should attempt to minimize the number of refugees we have to accept from Buffalo due to the ongoing refugee crisis at home. I don't necessarily agree, but I can acknowledge that as a valid concern.

The argument of "if your boat's taking on water it doesn't make sense to just throw another bucketful in there," however, whether or not you intended to, sounds very different, as, to put it in a very crass and impolite way, the implication is "Fuck you, I got me and mine to worry about."

Do you see the difference in the two positions?
 
Rivenscryr said:
So I understand then, your position is that we should attempt to minimize the number of refugees we have to accept from Buffalo due to the ongoing refugee crisis at home. I don't necessarily agree, but I can acknowledge that as a valid concern.

The argument of "if your boat's taking on water it doesn't make sense to just throw another bucketful in there," however, whether or not you intended to, sounds very different, as, to put it in a very crass and impolite way, the implication is "Fuck you, I got me and mine to worry about."

Do you see the difference?
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I apologize if I touched a nerve or sounded callous here. I meant both statements with the same intent. Forcing the Vicks to move when we have no concrete plan to house them, integrate them and put them to work is a problem for both them and us. It's not "fuck you, got mine" it's "we're already struggling to take care of these people, can we really be so confident of being able to provide such extensive integration and support for 50k more?" That number looks small when you put it next to a million, but it definitely won't look small when they turn up in Chicago over the span of 4 days and we are faced with the aforementioned challenges.
 
[X] This isn't worth it. Call for peace with the Loyalists and accept that they will be able to use this travesty as a victory for leverage in negotiations. Victoria will present a peace plan. It will be significantly better for them than what you offered. You get to choose to accept or reject it. Negotiations will keep you locked up long enough that snow will be on the ground and practical campaigning will be done with.
 
CthuluWasRight said:
I apologize if I touched a nerve or sounded callous here. I meant both statements with the same intent. Forcing the Vicks to move when we have no concrete plan to house them, integrate them and put them to work is a problem for both them and us. It's not "fuck you, got mine" it's "we're already struggling to take care of these people, can we really be so confident of being able to provide such extensive integration and support for 50k more?" That number looks small when you put it next to a million, but it definitely won't look small when they turn up in Chicago over the span of 4 days and we are faced with the aforementioned challenges.
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I personally don't question that your intent was good, and that you didn't mean to suggest "fuck you, got mine", simply that the more "succinct" line of argumentation you were using had very unfortunate implications, regardless of intention. As we've previously seen on this thread, implications can rub a number of people the wrong way.

I also want to remind you that the Commonwealth is far larger than just Chicago. We have much of Illinois, have integrated Detroit and Toledo into our Commonwealth, and are working on the area between. We're not trying to cram 50-75k refugee into one city.
 
[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements that you're planning to recognize Buffalo and surrounds -- including the Niagara Isthmus -- as an independent and free city, and are organizing elections to that effect. Blackwell absolutely could not ignore that, and would be politically required to launch an attack immediately, which would get him slaughtered. The downside is that you'd need to get the population out, because anybody remaining behind would have a death sentence on their heads. Something to demand in the peace treaty after you crush Blackwell's assault, in exchange for returning the physical location to him. Also...well, this looks fairly callous, and being used as bait for a trap won't really make the people of Buffalo grateful, much less being relocated from their homes under threat of death afterwards. And if you don't get peace, somehow, you're in the nasty position of having to evacuate a city under siege using your logistics...or leaving it.
 
Rivenscryr said:
We have much of Illinois, have integrated Detroit and Toledo into our Commonwealth
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We have passed a vote to bring them in. The actual legwork of bringing them in has yet to be done and it will be substantial. And working on the area between is not the same as having it. We're not a Chicago city state but in terms of the necessary infrastructure I suspect we might as well be.

As for implications, I appreciate the warning.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The part that threatens to tip things over into recklessness is the combination of periodically taking aggressive chances, doing so for relatively modest prizes, and refusing to recognize the times or opportunities to retreat. And, importantly, starting to treat it as a matter of moral principle that aggressive chances be taken and that retreat not be considered.
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thank you for telling me that I had not considered a retreat, knowing this I can now weight the options and pick which one is best, rather than mindlessly take risks without
hesitancy or thought.

Ok, got the sarcasm out of my system, sorry its a bit rude, but this statement is just insulting. People are not wanting to fold now because they refuse to consider it, they just think its the wrong time to do so. The people who disagree with you are not fundamentally wrong or throwing darts here. You're treating it as a given they are making the wrong choice, to the point where the only reason they could be doing that is that they are not thinking about it or falling into some mental trap. Especially, since you seem to be changing exactly why disagreeing with you is concerningly risky. Your present one is bullshit to by the by. Unless you have looked into the heads of everone who votes to not fold and see their thought process I would not make assertions like that. I'm sure there are some RAAAAA SMASH type statements made but there are always loud people in threads like this, they don't mean much.

If you keep up including these pointless digs in your responses I'm going to drop it.


Simon_Jester said:
The problem I'm presenting here is that not only was the coin flip risky, the enthusiasm with which the coin flip was embraced kind of makes a mockery of the earlier plan, which was deviated from the moment the coin flip became available.

I'm worried about what that says about our approach to brinksmanship and pushing things in pursuit of "just one more shiny." I want us to remember this and go "let's NOT get so greedy to get the maximum amount this time"

A bit less generally, for me, the problem isn't so much "how likely further setbacks are," it's "how likely this is to work if the plan unfolds as hoped AND how likely further setbacks are." There is a moderate likelihood Blackwell has nasty surprises for us somewhere in this general region of New York, but the really big issue is that even winning a big battle here doesn't automatically guarantee that Blackwell will make or accept another treaty offer. He still doesn't have to.

The fear that "he'll think he won and that we're soft" or whatever only counts so much in the face of that. If Blackwell can just keep refusing to offer us a treaty except when he thinks he's done something that dented our resolve, sooner or later he wins by default.
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you know its funny, I actually wrote the first part and read the rest. It's just how I tend to react to these annoying split posts, treat each section as a separate point. which produced the rather interesting thing where I ended the last bit asking you to stop insulting me, with the assumption that your next bit would be engaging with my point. but no, just more insults, well and restarting your position as if it was new information.

given how you have more or less refused to engage why my actual point, I can only conclude that you don't have a rebuttal as to why I think Blackwell is more likely to come to the table than not, just vague fears that he might not, and a desire to take this chance to show off how right you are. So given we seem to have run out of things you feel comfortable actually debating, I'm done. you can reply if you like, just be aware that if I responded, and I might not, it will probably just be sarcastic mockery.
 
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Vote Tally : Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!] | Page 698 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 17433-17765]
##### NetTally 2.2.4

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.
No. of Votes: 51
[X] Luminous
[X] aceraptor
[X] Andy0915
[X] Anime_Fan35
[X] bdun140
[X] Blackstar
[X] BrightFuture64
[X] buli-buli
[X] Cataphract
[X] Chimeraguard
[x] Chronic
[X] Cmd. Frost
[X] ConfusedCanuck
[X] Crazy7s1
[X] EBR
[X] ExNihilo
[X] Exterminatus
[X] Forgothrax
[X] Genji
[X] inirlan
[X] kelgar04
[X] Lord Marshal
[X] me.me.here
[X] Nate700
[X] newgman
[X] notbirdofprey
[X] Oshha
[X] picklepikkl
[X] Pittauro
[X] QTesseract
[X] random_npc
[X] Reliable_2IC
[X] Rhodes
[X] Rivenscryr
[X] Rooster196
[X] Ruirk
[X] S-159A1
[X] Secondskink
[X] siflux
[X] Slacker
[X] Stabbtmcstabstab
[X] Sturmi
[X] tapkomet
[X] thamuzz
[X] Theravis
[X] Thule
[X] tygerbright
[X] Ugolino
[X] veekie
[X] Vocalend
[X] Whumbly

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
No. of Votes: 29
[X] Luminous
[X] 10ebbor10
[X] Abhorsen
[X] Alanek
[X] Andy0915
[X] Arcus
[X] Bullmoose
[X] Chimeraguard
[X] CrimsonKnight
[X] Exterminatus
[X] Forgothrax
[X] Just Some Guy
[X] Karugus
[X] KhazintheDark
[X] kilopi505
[X] Model DC.14F
[X] MonkeyTypewriter
[X] newgman
[X] Parzival95
[X] Ptolemy
[X] QuarkBeast
[X] ScreenWatcher
[X] shepsquared
[X] Slacker
[X] tapkomet
[X] TheFantasticFox
[X] uju32
[X] veekie
[X] Zenbeast

[X] This isn't worth it. Call for peace with the Loyalists and accept that they will be able to use this travesty as a victory for leverage in negotiations. Victoria will present a peace plan. It will be significantly better for them than what you offered. You get to choose to accept or reject it. Negotiations will keep you locked up long enough that snow will be on the ground and practical campaigning will be done with.
No. of Votes: 28
[X] Random Member
[X] Aetherstorm
[X] Anime_Fan35
[X] Antix_Shadows
[X] Aranfan
[X] Artificial Girl
[X] Chaos Blade
[X] clockworkchaos
[X] DanBaque
[X] Dermon
[X] dinomannitro6
[X] EternalStruggle
[X] Genon
[X] huhYeahGoodPoint
[X] jy3
[X] KnightDisciple
[X] mcclay
[X] Mr BreaksIt
[X] Nyvis
[X] overtoast
[X] quichwe10
[X] Rakuhn
[X] Rat King
[X] Rockeye
[X] Shapeless Phobos
[X] Simon_Jester
[X] tygerbright
[X] Whachamacallit

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer, will drastically undercut the message you're trying to convey.
No. of Votes: 15
[X] Luminous
[X] Andy0915
[X] bdun140
[X] buli-buli
[X] Cataphract
[X] Exterminatus
[X] inirlan
[X] me.me.here
[X] Model DC.14F
[X] MonkeyTypewriter
[X] newgman
[X] thamuzz
[X] Ugolino
[X] uju32
[X] veekie

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements that you're planning to recognize Buffalo and surrounds -- including the Niagara Isthmus -- as an independent and free city, and are organizing elections to that effect. Blackwell absolutely could not ignore that, and would be politically required to launch an attack immediately, which would get him slaughtered. The downside is that you'd need to get the population out, because anybody remaining behind would have a death sentence on their heads. Something to demand in the peace treaty after you crush Blackwell's assault, in exchange for returning the physical location to him. Also...well, this looks fairly callous, and being used as bait for a trap won't really make the people of Buffalo grateful, much less being relocated from their homes under threat of death afterwards. And if you don't get peace, somehow, you're in the nasty position of having to evacuate a city under siege using your logistics...or leaving it.
No. of Votes: 14
[X] Luminous
[X] Alanek
[X] Chimeraguard
[X] CthuluWasRight
[X] Exterminatus
[X] Keani
[X] KhazintheDark
[X] LonelyWolf999
[X] MonkeyTypewriter
[X] Mr Tebbs
[X] newgman
[X] Ptolemy
[X] Ugolino
[X] veekie

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell has overplayed his hand; by calling a muster at Rochester, he's given you a concrete target. If you move out to the city with your motorized forces, you should be able cut the forces there off from supply and communications, and force a decisive battle with your superior forces. The risk is that they get enough warning to simply, leaving you very overextended and vulnerable to attacks on your own supply lines.
No. of Votes: 7
[X] Luminous
[X] Horologer
[X] newgman
[X] Polenball
[X] Ptolemy
[X] Rui
[X] Ugolino

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied
No. of Votes: 4
[X] Uniquelyequal
[X] Bolo
[X] Inferno23
[X] Mortenkam

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue.
-[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer, will drastically undercut the message you're trying to convey.
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Zenbeast
[x] PainRack

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Unknown14
[X] Foxwood

[X] This isn't worth it. Call for peace with the Loyalists and accept that they will be able to use this travesty as a victory for leverage in negotiations. Victoria will present a peace plan. It will be significantly better for them than what you offered. You get to choose to accept or reject it. Negotiations will keep you locked up long enough that snow will be on the ground and practical campaigning will be done with.
-[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer, will drastically undercut the message you're trying to convey.
-[X] Blackwell has overplayed his hand; by calling a muster at Rochester, he's given you a concrete target. If you move out to the city with your motorized forces, you should be able cut the forces there off from supply and communications, and force a decisive battle with your superior forces. The risk is that they get enough warning to simply, leaving you very overextended and vulnerable to attacks on your own supply lines.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] stairmaster

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Uniquelyequal

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer,
No. of Votes: 1
[X] EWilanO


Total No. of Voters: 113

Your winner, with very nearly a majority! Not counting formatting errors which wouldn't change anything, you have selected:

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.
 
I'm worried Buffalo will vote against, terrified about what happens when we LEAVE.
 
CthuluWasRight said:
I apologize if I touched a nerve or sounded callous here. I meant both statements with the same intent. Forcing the Vicks to move when we have no concrete plan to house them, integrate them and put them to work is a problem for both them and us. It's not "fuck you, got mine" it's "we're already struggling to take care of these people, can we really be so confident of being able to provide such extensive integration and support for 50k more?" That number looks small when you put it next to a million, but it definitely won't look small when they turn up in Chicago over the span of 4 days and we are faced with the aforementioned challenges.
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So there's " no more room at the inn"?

Make no mistake here, giving the people of Buffalo- I think when they've engaged in counterinsurgency and been murdered by Victorians, the label of Victorian doesn't fit very well- a chance to set up new lives that objectively will be less horrendous, especially given the disparity in scale already pointed out repeatedly.

Well, as I said, if the quest doesn't make a point of de-Victorification and liberation then I have to question how well it's fulfilling its root purpose in and out of universe.

Rockeye said:
I'm worried Buffalo will vote against, terrified about what happens when we LEAVE.
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I mean, that was always the question. There was never a morally sound option where we didn't give the people of Buffalo every chance to escape Victoria.

We literally can't do anything about individuals that vote to stay Victorian despite everything- not at this time. All we can do for them is make clear to the Victorians that the people who do voted to stay and hope the Victorians don't screw them over for being "loyal" while we evacuate everyone who wants a better life and make a point of giving them the tools to live such- for reasons both moral and optics based.

So the plebiscite was just weaponizing what we were morally obliged to do anyway.
 
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Welp, this is going to be interesting. Let's hope it works exactly as planned, which is never something you like to say.
 
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