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Adhoc vote count started by ScreenWatcher on Feb 4, 2020 at 7:16 AM, finished with 291 posts and 108 votes.

  • [X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
    -[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.
    -[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
    [X] This isn't worth it. Call for peace with the Loyalists and accept that they will be able to use this travesty as a victory for leverage in negotiations. Victoria will present a peace plan. It will be significantly better for them than what you offered. You get to choose to accept or reject it. Negotiations will keep you locked up long enough that snow will be on the ground and practical campaigning will be done with.
    -[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer, will drastically undercut the message you're trying to convey.
    -[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements that you're planning to recognize Buffalo and surrounds -- including the Niagara Isthmus -- as an independent and free city, and are organizing elections to that effect. Blackwell absolutely could not ignore that, and would be politically required to launch an attack immediately, which would get him slaughtered. The downside is that you'd need to get the population out, because anybody remaining behind would have a death sentence on their heads. Something to demand in the peace treaty after you crush Blackwell's assault, in exchange for returning the physical location to him. Also...well, this looks fairly callous, and being used as bait for a trap won't really make the people of Buffalo grateful, much less being relocated from their homes under threat of death afterwards. And if you don't get peace, somehow, you're in the nasty position of having to evacuate a city under siege using your logistics...or leaving it.
    -[X] Blackwell has overplayed his hand; by calling a muster at Rochester, he's given you a concrete target. If you move out to the city with your motorized forces, you should be able cut the forces there off from supply and communications, and force a decisive battle with your superior forces. The risk is that they get enough warning to simply, leaving you very overextended and vulnerable to attacks on your own supply lines.
    [X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue.
    [X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
    [X] This isn't worth it. Call for peace with the Loyalists and accept that they will be able to use this travesty as a victory for leverage in negotiations.
    -[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
    -[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer,
    -[X] This isn't worth it. Call for peace with the Loyalists and accept that they will be able to use this travesty as a victory for leverage in negotiations. Victoria will present a peace plan. It will be significantly better for them than what you offered. You get to choose to accept or reject it. Negotiations will keep you locked up long enough that snow will be on the ground and practical campaigning will be done with.
    -[X] Blackwell has overplayed his hand; by calling a muster at Rochester, he's given you a concrete target. If you move out to the city with your motorized forces, you should be able cut it off and force a decisive battle with your superior forces.
 
@PoptartProdigy I assume we're going to invite a bunch of international observers so our plebiscite is not as easily denouncable as a farce (which Victoria will do anyway, of course, but other countries hopefull will not)? If so, I imagine the plebiscite vote is our best bet

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
 
We already know what happened when quality 0 militia got hit by a mass of disciplined troops...

Now it's being posited that they can somehow contain a force where the only advantage this mass of militia has is in numbers. These militia have neither the war material that their regular counterparts would've had, they have none of the training or fanaticism that made them push beyond their limitations, and to cap it off they have inferior mobility on a good sunny day, nevermind how the weather would severely worsen both their logistical tail and tactical mobility. Given their subpar performance on the defense in one of the better conditions available, such an attempt at sieging would result in rout and effective destruction due to dispersed elements being rolled up by concentrated Commonwealth forces.
Fair. Outright encirclement may be beyond their capabilities; I keep expecting to see partly-trained 1/5 units out of Blackwell sooner or later but they may not exist or be totally unavailable for this theater. As for armament, Victoria almost certainly had the reserve infantry weapons, specifically, to arm some of its militia (but far from all) before the war. However, the capacity to up-arm militia may be getting left for the forces fighting the Crusaders.

All this being the case, the main function of the militias is just to make it prohibitively unsafe to try deep penetration raids or break up into small penny packet forces. In that role the weather is broadly speaking an ally of theirs.

we have taken options that have the possibility of negative outcomes, but every option presented to us in the last few choices had the possibility of negative outcomes. If you stretch the definition of reckless risk-taking to include that sort of measured approach every option is a being reckless, which admittedly does create a worrying pattern of reckless risk-taking stretching back to the start of the quest.
The part that threatens to tip things over into recklessness is the combination of periodically taking aggressive chances, doing so for relatively modest prizes, and refusing to recognize the times or opportunities to retreat. And, importantly, starting to treat it as a matter of moral principle that aggressive chances be taken and that retreat not be considered.

umm, yes? that was the risk I was talking about. Using a new DC modifier to try for a coin flip treaty that would have crippled victoray. That is, in fact, the ong big high-risk high reward action we have taken. I don't really see why you brought this up? We both agreed that was a high risk high reward choice. I don't really see how this in any real way touches on anything, other than taking a chance to slip in a dig at the people who voted to flip that coin.
The problem I'm presenting here is that not only was the coin flip risky, the enthusiasm with which the coin flip was embraced kind of makes a mockery of the earlier plan, which was deviated from the moment the coin flip became available.

I'm worried about what that says about our approach to brinksmanship and pushing things in pursuit of "just one more shiny." I want us to remember this and go "let's NOT get so greedy to get the maximum amount this time"

A bit less generally, for me, the problem isn't so much "how likely further setbacks are," it's "how likely this is to work if the plan unfolds as hoped AND how likely further setbacks are." There is a moderate likelihood Blackwell has nasty surprises for us somewhere in this general region of New York, but the really big issue is that even winning a big battle here doesn't automatically guarantee that Blackwell will make or accept another treaty offer. He still doesn't have to.

The fear that "he'll think he won and that we're soft" or whatever only counts so much in the face of that. If Blackwell can just keep refusing to offer us a treaty except when he thinks he's done something that dented our resolve, sooner or later he wins by default.
 
Hey @PoptartProdigy I just had a thought. From what I can tell a lot of people's objection to taking the peace treaty is that it would be completely dictated by the Victorians, so when we send the message to them to present us a treaty can we also say one or two clauses must be a part of it?
 
Fair. Outright encirclement may be beyond their capabilities; I keep expecting to see partly-trained 1/5 units out of Blackwell sooner or later but they may not exist or be totally unavailable for this theater. As for armament, Victoria almost certainly had the reserve infantry weapons, specifically, to arm some of its militia (but far from all) before the war. However, the capacity to up-arm militia may be getting left for the forces fighting the Crusaders.

All this being the case, the main function of the militias is just to make it prohibitively unsafe to try deep penetration raids or break up into small penny packet forces. In that role the weather is broadly speaking an ally of theirs.
While this is certainly possible, they'd be better off guarding the vital targets and surrendering things that can't be guarded than actually trying to encircle us. Not least because they do not know that we're running out of rounds for the artillery and so would have to stay outside it's range, which is well beyond their mortar range. They'd be down to sending harsh language via smoke signals when the weather permits. Taking to the field around Buffalo would also require them to face the inclement weather until they built sufficient shelter along with field fortifications.

For the record, I'm in favor of taking the next exit that is presented after this particular engagement, since it should be at least neutral reputation-wise and not give everyone the impression that we got forced by volatile internal politics (that is a bad impression to give).
 
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The fear that "he'll think he won and that we're soft" or whatever only counts so much in the face of that. If Blackwell can just keep refusing to offer us a treaty except when he thinks he's done something that dented our resolve, sooner or later he wins by default.

To expand on this I think the fear of that "Blackwell will think these current tactics work" is overblown. He will think these tactics work no matter what, because he has to. Victoria is built on atrocities. He can't admit they don't work, or he would have to face himself, face the monster. Remember he was the 'nice' general, and here is his merciful doctrine.
In my time in command of continuous counterinsurgency patrols in the southwest and along the Mississippi I learned that in order to pacify an area you had to identify the leaders, the bad apples, remove them and then make a few additional examples to make the lesson stick. Very rarely did I ever need to destroy entire communities of malcontents

Kill those you think bad, kill a few more to make it stick, but, you know, mercy destroying entire communities was "very rare". (Also, Blackwell apparently built up rapport with communities and was in the Mississippi, so that's gonna mean there are almost certainty some retro-culture states down there). This is the most merciful version of Victoria.

Blackwell can't remotely admit atrocities don't work, or worse, he sacrificed his veterans, some of the founders of Victoria, for nothing. No matter what happens, he will believe it worked.

We go destroy the industrial up north? We won't go after cities anymore, and he is sapping us as we destroy.
We go with the current plan and give elections to Buffalo? We stopped advancing. We lost the elan. It would have been worse if he hadn't.
We go Rochester? It hurt and delayed us, enough time to make some mustering (if he fails) or slip the net (if he succeeds).

There is not possibility that Blackwell won't believe it worked, because he has to believe it worked.
 
There is not possibility that Blackwell won't believe it worked, because he has to believe it worked.
He has to believe it in public anyhow. To himself, and the more cynical inner circle he's likely to cultivate out of need, he can tell the truth so long as there are no recordings of it. The risk of him deciding to double down on atrocities is limited because he's relatively sane, doubling down is the Crusaders' thing.

The real worrisome thing victorians or russians could realize is how vulnerable our politics are to subversion. So long as they make sure their chosen pawn is just inward focused rather than transparently evil, anyhow.
 
He has to believe it in public anyhow. To himself, and the more cynical inner circle he's likely to cultivate out of need, he can tell the truth so long as there are no recordings of it. The risk of him deciding to double down on atrocities is limited because he's relatively sane, doubling down is the Crusaders' thing.

The real worrisome thing victorians or russians could realize is how vulnerable our politics are to subversion. So long as they make sure their chosen pawn is just inward focused rather than transparently evil, anyhow.

To be fair, both the Victorians and the Russians are almost certainly exactly aware of how vulnerable our politics are to subversion. This sort of subversion is basically the Russians entire playbook, and it is how Victoria killed the old USA.

The perils of being a democracy. Nothing we can do about that.

Except maybe letting the Farmers party take over. They are communists after all, perhaps they can transform us into a totalitarian one-party state?
 
Hey @PoptartProdigy I just had a thought. From what I can tell a lot of people's objection to taking the peace treaty is that it would be completely dictated by the Victorians, so when we send the message to them to present us a treaty can we also say one or two clauses must be a part of it?
They already sort of addressed this point:
Narratively, sure, but mechanically no. This is OOC information for the sake of simplicity as well as Johnson's read of the situation: if you sue for peace now, the Vicks will read the room and push for a treaty they compose. From their perspective, they've fractured your moral base and merely need to hold their ground in order for you to cave in order to placate internal unrest. The Vicks will not consider any treaty you propose while the uproar over Buffalo is ongoing. They think they have you where they want you.
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Except maybe letting the Farmers party take over. They are communists after all, perhaps they can transform us into a totalitarian one-party state?
Hey, don't do this. In this quest, the Accords sequence at the start set up our political rules, and the maximally-democratic [CRUSH] option 1) was explicitly compatible with any of the economic ideologies on tap, including communism 2) won. Nobody's setting up one-party rule without amending our constitution, and there is literally zero textual reason to believe the Farmers are inclined to do this.
 
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To be fair, both the Victorians and the Russians are almost certainly exactly aware of how vulnerable our politics are to subversion. This sort of subversion is basically the Russians entire playbook, and it is how Victoria killed the old USA.

The perils of being a democracy. Nothing we can do about that.

Except maybe letting the Farmers party take over. They are communists after all, perhaps they can transform us into a totalitarian one-party state?
Can you maybe not talk about the democratically-elected representatives of a portion of our nations people as "subverting" our government, or accusing them of wanting to set up a totalitarian state of any kind?
 
To be fair, both the Victorians and the Russians are almost certainly completely aware of how vulnerable our politics are to subversion. This sort of subversion is basically the Russians entire playbook, and it is how Victoria killed the USA.

The perils of being a democracy. Nothing we can do about it.

Except maybe letting the Farmers party take over. They are communists after all, perhaps they can transform us into a totalitarian one-party state?
They are aware of it intellectually, but they haven't given it a serious try yet (I do not regard open fascists who are victorian in all but name a serious try). We want them, and specially the far more politically adept russians, to keep thinking that their money is better spent on jets than it is on politicians of a nation they plan to demolish in a couple of years anyways.

Lets face it, an isolationist, economically focused party would have a good shot at winning the elections with some help. And while they'd not necessarily be evil, they'd give Victoria all the time in the world to recover.
 
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They are aware of it intellectually, but they haven't given it a serious try yet (I do not regard open fascists who are victorian in all but name a serious try). We want them, and specially the far more politically adept russians, to keep thinking that their money is better spent on jets than it is on politicians.

Lets face it, an isolationist, economically focused party would have a good shot at winning the elections with some help. And while they'd not be evil they'd give Victoria all the time in the world to recover.
Can we also not accuse the Farmers of basically being in Russia's pocket? That would also be nice.
 
Can we also not accuse the Farmers of basically being in Russia's pocket? That would also be nice.
I didn't accuse them of being in Russia's pocket. I said that I do not think Russia is doing that yet, but they totally could start doing so and it'd work. Right now, they are doing what they'd otherwise be paid for completely of their own initiative for understandable reasons.

Also I didn't say Farmers, I spoke of a hypothetical party which could totally be them but could also be someone else, depending on whose politics align better with the needs of our enemies.
 
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Except maybe letting the Farmers party take over. They are communists after all, perhaps they can transform us into a totalitarian one-party state?
More Socialists with a significant Communist faction that's trying to see if entryism works.
Lets face it, an isolationist, economically focused party would have a good shot at winning the elections with some help.
Just because they don't support your current idiotic course of action in this single instance doesn't make them isolationist.
 
Can you maybe not talk about the democratically-elected representatives of a portion of our nations people as "subverting" our government, or accusing them of wanting to set up a totalitarian state of any kind?

You are getting a bit too heated, that was merely a sarcastic joke. I am aware that the Farmers party isn't exactly into the Marxist-Lenninist version of communism.

They are aware of it intellectually, but they haven't given it a serious try yet (I do not regard open fascists who are victorian in all but name a serious try). We want them, and specially the far more politically adept russians, to keep thinking that their money is better spent on jets than it is on politicians of a nation they plan to demolish in a couple of years anyways.

Lets face it, an isolationist, economically focused party would have a good shot at winning the elections with some help. And while they'd not necessarily be evil, they'd give Victoria all the time in the world to recover.

I mean, they will do that, it is basically inevitable. After political subversion destroyed the worlds superpower, it is more than well known that it is Democracies' Kryptonite. As soon as it is clear that the Commonwealth is here to stay, the subversion attempts will start.
 
You are getting a bit too heated, that was merely a sarcastic joke. I am aware that the Farmers party isn't exactly into the Marxist-Lenninist version of communism.



I mean, they will do that, it is basically inevitable. After political subversion destroyed the worlds superpower, it is more than well known that it is Democracies' Kryptonite. As soon as it is clear that the Commonwealth is here to stay, the subversion attempts will start.
It's a joke in extremely poor taste and timing.
 
I mean, they will do that, it is basically inevitable. After political subversion destroyed the worlds superpower, it is more than well known that it is Democracies' Kryptonite. As soon as it is clear that the Commonwealth is here to stay, the subversion attempts will start.
Indeed. Of course, right now it is not clear we're here to stay, and if you asked the victorians they'd say we have five to ten years to live. So the attempts will only start if they are seen as disproportionately effective in killing us compared to just feeding Victoria more hardware with the same amount of money. So we should aim to appear cohesive in so far as we can.
 
You are getting a bit too heated, that was merely a sarcastic joke. I am aware that the Farmers party isn't exactly into the Marxist-Lenninist version of communism.
It has been said multiple times to mark when you are making a joke. Poe's law is a thing. Otherwise people will think you are just trying to kick the hornet's nest.

And maybe this thread needs to be locked till everyone calms down?
 
It's a joke in extremely poor taste and timing.

You are going to have to explain that one. Do you identify with the Farmers party or something?

Indeed. Of course, right now it is not clear we're here to stay, and if you asked the victorians they'd say we have five to ten years to live. So the attempts will only start if they are seen as disproportionately effective in killing us compared to just feeding Victoria more hardware with the same amount of money. So we should aim to appear cohesive in so far as we can.

Of course, there is no reason they can't just do both.
 
Of course, there is no reason they can't just do both.
Action crunch isn't just for us. The whole premise of our forming the Commonwealth and attacking now is that Russia can't do everything they could to help Victoria right now because they are busy with other stuff. We do not know exactly what options they have to choose from, but better to try and encourage them to choose what we want if it does come up.
 
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He has to believe it in public anyhow. To himself, and the more cynical inner circle he's likely to cultivate out of need, he can tell the truth so long as there are no recordings of it. The risk of him deciding to double down on atrocities is limited because he's relatively sane, doubling down is the Crusaders' thing.

No, no he isn't. Blackwell admitted our material power, but not once, not once, in his entire intro has he admitted to atrocities not being useful. He never once questioned the idea that they should have just left the rest of America alone. Not once did he question his need to genocide. Blackwell believes in atrocity, he just also recognizes the material components. I can't think of a single time in human history a atrocity committing side (at least one without internal pressure), looked at an atrocity, and decided that "well that didn't work, no more atrocities for me."
 
No, no he isn't. Blackwell admitted our material power, but not once, not once, in his entire intro has he admitted to atrocities not being useful. He never once questioned the idea that they should have just left the rest of America alone. Not once did he question his need to genocide. Blackwell believes in atrocity, he just also recognizes the material components. I can't think of a single time in human history a atrocity committing side (at least one without internal pressure), looked at an atrocity, and decided that "well that didn't work, no more atrocities for me."
Of course not, I said relatively sane, as in by victorian standards. He'll do measured atrocities for specific purposes, rather than try to maximize them at all times, which is what we could expect from other victorians if they get it into their heads that we're squeamish. I'm not saying he's a good guy, I'm saying he can think and so he's not likely to deliberately do things like strap various undesirables to his tanks to intimidate us, if only because of the logistical issues of carrying so many live prisoners around.

Human ablative armor is totally something I'd expect from the CMC, along with Child Martyrs of Victoria units and other such nonsense.
 
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Then i don't get the problem. Joking that we'd need the communist Farmers party in charge to form a totalitarian one party state is clearly divorced from their desire to end the current war.
It is a loaded topic because a lot of people, since the last update, have been railing against the Farmers/peace movement as enemies of the state/fifth columnists/Victorian agents and coming up with ways to politically suppress them. As such, the joke that they are antidemocratic in their aims was in poor taste, because it feeds into the hostility that's been ongoing for the last few days.

And I say this as someone who does not identify with the Farmers/leftists and who voted to continue the war.
 
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