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I was inspired to ask this by a new TNO update. In The New Order mod, England starts under a Nazi controlled collaborator government. While the pro-Queen Elizabeth royalists and the British socialist movement plot open rebellion under the Free England banner, the collaborationist government can fall under the influence of a pro-democratic reformer movement that quietly plots the removal of the German strings on the collaborationist government. Once the reformers remove the German strings, they can align England with the USA and its alliance which is the obvious choice or rejoin the Nazi Unity Pact alliance as an equal or close to an equal as you can get in an alliance with fascists. Why would an independent democratic England ever voluntarily align with a Nazi Germany that brutalized it not too long ago? Well, the Nazis are strong and scary neighbors who might reinvade England and America is far away. Aligning with the Nazis is the safe and pragmatic realpolitik option.
OHH We have a fellow TNO Fan, Me too, wow...small world. I personally want to play TNO for its story not the war portion of the HOI4 mod, Its A facinating display of world building!! Like Poptart making this world make sense.
Assumptions taken for granted in real life and Poptart quests can be dangerous.
Indeed. Also I found out something interesting!!

There is an SR-71 Blackbird in the Air Zoo in Portage Michigan, and I think it is in our territory so, we should probably go fix it. Along with a few other things, they are museum pices but that shouldn't be hard..

Logan: "DARIA WE FOUND THE SR-71 WHERE DO YOU WANT US TO PUT IT!!"
The obvious options for California would be American revivalist states like CFC, the Republic of China, or the European Union.
We should not discount Australia, and anyone that might be forming out of South America that we don't know about...the Carrabian Isles and the like. We don't know WHO is out there guys we only know general stuff Poptart told us so keep that in mind.

Also how did you like my omake.
 
What are your thoughts on the issue? Assumptions taken for granted in real life and Poptart quests can be dangerous.
I mean, they're in friendly and secret contact with us, an explicitly anti-russia (or at least, anti-Victoria, a Russian proxy state) government, so I don't think they're going to realpolitik themselves into ditching the alliances they've been working to build.
 
I loved it too, I hope people enjoy mine it inspired me to write here again after the Boss went on hiatus.
It's alright.
I have my doubts about the viability of mercenary forces operating heavy equipment without nationstate support, but it's alright.
I hope we can make and SR-71 Blackbird.
Lockheed YF-12 was the actual fighter version of that plane. Bomber interceptor.
Top speed of Mach 3.35. Flight ceiling of 90,000 feet. Combat radius of 1350 nautical miles/2500 km. Payload of 3 longrange AA missiles.
Canceled after 2 models were built when it was decided that the Soviet bomber threat had receded.

Probably too maintenance intensive to bother.
An assumption that most of the voter base is working off of is if the New California Republic successfully breaks away from Russian control, then they will be hostile to Russia and friendly to us. A few worry that the NCR might turn hostile toward in the future but everybody still assumes that an independent NCR would be hostile to Russia. But could an independent NCR voluntarily align itself with Russia after independence?
What are your thoughts on the issue? Assumptions taken for granted in real life and Poptart quests can be dangerous.
Nothing is impossible in statecraft mind.

But while we cannot assume that an independent California will be, or remain our friend? It's safe to assume that they will remain unrelentingly hostile to Russia and Japan for the next couple decades. Three decades of economic exploitation and political shackling, after a war where RussoJapanese proxies committed atrocities on Californian citizens and refugees, and kidnapped others, is not something that will be overlooked.

I have theorized long suspected that part of the Pacific War peace treaty involved a requirement to pay tribute reparations as well, which explains why the 7th largest economy in the world is currently nowhere as prosperous as it should rightfully be, even with the fall of the rest of the US.

And the CFC are strategic allies.
Not just out of sentiment, but because the Commonwealth serve as a blocking force that prevents Russia's Victorian proxies crawling up their ass and jostling their arm while they tussle with two of the three extant Pacific superpowers. That's not likely to change until the NCR think they can fight and win a multi-front war.
 
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California is highly unlikely to align with Russia because everyone that's paid attention damn well knows that Russia is currently s house of cards only kept together by it's current leader being alive and there is extremely high likelihood of a bloody succession crisis occurring once the leader dies.

Also. California's revolt is by necessity going to be bloody. A lot of Russians are going to die when the revolt happens because California can't afford to let them run around.

Potentially all the Russian consulates and the embassy itself may well be stormed to kill or capture everyone as well as get California's hands on as much intelligence as possible on spy networks Russia has maintained in California.

Russian companies will likely be seized and workers and leadership of such companies captured or killed in the ensuing chaos.

For sure every russian safehouse that California has identified will be taken down to cause maximum disruption to Russian intelligence operations.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are random Russians being strung up on lampposts when California declares its treaty with Russia nullified and void with the amount of hate against Russia there is floating around there.
 
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Probably too maintenance intensive to bother.
No we have an actual SR-71 in that area that we can use/Repair.
California is highly unlikely to align with Russia because everyone that's paid attention damn well knows that Russia is currently s house of cards only kept together by it's current leader being alive and there is extremely high likelihood of a bloody succession crisis occurring once the leader dies.
AHH Reality it's so sweet.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are random Russians being strung up on lampposts when California declares its treaty with Russia nullified and void.
Yep...just like that...only worse.
 
California is highly unlikely to align with Russia because everyone that's paid attention damn well knows that Russia is currently s house of cards only kept together by it's current leader being alive and there is extremely high likelihood of a bloody succession crisis occurring once the leader dies.

Also. California's revolt is by necessity going to be bloody. A lot of Russians are going to die when the revolt happens because California can't afford to let them run around.

Potentially all the Russian consulates and the embassy itself may well be stormed to kill or capture everyone as well as get California's hands on as much intelligence as possible on spy networks Russia has maintained in California.
Russian companies will likely be seized and workers and leadership of such companies captured or killed in the ensuing chaos.

For sure every russian safehouse that California has identified will be taken down to cause maximum disruption to Russian intelligence operations.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are random Russians being strung up on lampposts when California declares its treaty with Russia nullified and void with the amount of hate against Russia there is floating around there.
-This is a long- and carefully planned rebellion.
You're unlikely to see any of that sort of dumb mob action shit here. California is going to just round up a whole lot of Russian government reps and agents and expel them, while putting civilians into protective custody if necessary.

-Storming embassies and consulates?
Straight up not going to happen. The NCR is seeking diplomatic support and international trade, which is not helped by ignoring international diplomatic norms and standards and allowing your enemies to paint you as outlaws.

Nor do they want to force the Russians into precipitate action.

-No, Russian companies will not be seized.
No one wants to trade in a nation which can seize your shit at a whim. They will simply find themselves having to pay market price for shit, and watched carefully. If they choose to leave *le shrug* good riddance.

It's not like we have any indication that there is significant Russian presence in the Cali economy anyway.

-Spies and espionage operations without diplomatic cover can and will be treated as spies.
Which means arrest, interrogation, trial and imprisonment.
They're sources of information and valuable bargaining chips, not just stuff to be destroyed.

-The Cali law enforcement system would be deployed to prevent that shit.
You're not going to see people being strung up.
No we have an actual SR-71 in that area that we can use/Repair.
It's a hundred year old plane that has received zero maintenance since around 2000.
It wouldn't be airworthy even if it survived all this time.
Not to mention that it's sheer cost of operation pretty high; apparently comparable to the B-2 stealth bomber program.
 
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An assumption that most of the voter base is working off of is if the New California Republic successfully breaks away from Russian control, then they will be hostile to Russia and friendly to us. A few worry that the NCR might turn hostile toward in the future but everybody still assumes that an independent NCR would be hostile to Russia. But could an independent NCR voluntarily align itself with Russia after independence?
I consider this highly unlikely. Even stipulating what you say below...

1) China is weakened as an ally by being hemmed in, but California's shifting role in the balance of power in the Pacific significantly weakens that encirclement. Russia's Pacific presence is almost certainly weaker than the country's superpower status would indicate, simply because of how remote the Pacific is from Russia's geographic 'center of mass.' With China rising and Russia having to worry about a land-based threat from China, it is extremely risky for the Russians to indulge in extensive naval operations in the Pacific. Japan has more freedom of action, but in turn must keep most of its forces available to counter threats from China. Neither has available the large numbers of soldiers it would take to occupy California once the nation establishes a national government; last time the Russians relied on Victorians and mercenaries, and that won't work this time.

2) With Victoria losing its ability to keep North America locked down, with Miami and various South American states independent, Russia's grip on Panama starts to look rather insecure, especially if California flips. This, in turn, influences California's relationship with Europe.

3) Cases where a liberal democratic state aligns with a fascist power tend to involve that liberal democratic state having a nearby third-party enemy (e.g. Finland allying with Germany against Russia), and that democratic state not having bitter memories of rapine, slaughter, and starvation at the hands of the fascist state (likewise). California does have such memories. The Californians would be fools to tolerate Russian military forces based in California, or to rely on Russian supplies of military equipment, or to squander its own forces doing Russia's bidding and thus making itself vulnerable to betrayal.

4) Russian attempts to attack California directly, without the support of a large ready-made army already assailing them from another direction, will probably do poorly. They can blockade, sure. But if California has taken the basic step of ensuring food security (which mainly requires water security, which explains why they've pushed inland), then they can hold out for a long time against blockade. And reconquering the Californians in the face of California having decent weaponry, nuclear cruise missiles and quite possibly ballistic missiles, and a populace willing to engage in guerilla warfare would require someone to do a lot of dying... Which would, in turn, force Alexander to commit troops to a bloody attritional war in North America, something he's been avoiding as hard as he can for over forty years. I mean, he hasn't even fallen for the old "invade Afghanistan" trap, and that's right in his backyard. I don't think he's going to be stupid enough to fall for it when it's happening more or less literally at the opposite end of the Earth.

I do not think the NCR will have as much to fear as you believe, assuming they can drive off the immediate Russian military presence on their soil and organize a large military capable of stopping the Russians from making unopposed troop landings in Californian port cities.

Help from China or Europe would be limited by these factors. So what about Russia? Russia is the reigning superpower and the scary close by neighbor. California and Russia have pre-existing economic ties. Rejoining the Russian alliance would ward off extreme punishment from Russia and attacks from Victoria or Japan's West Coast colonies. An willing allied NCR would be a far more capable ally in North America for Russia than the Victorians could be. A Russian alignment could be the pragmatic option for an independent NCR. There is historical precedent for a liberal democratic state allying with the nearby fascist power over more far away more ideologically similar states (Finland during WW2) and plenty of newly independent states have aligned themselves with their former masters even after hard won independence wars.
A Russian alignment with the NCR would be very pragmatic for Russia and Alexander might actually settle for it. We've seen that he is far too canny to throw good money after bad by observing how he's handling the Victorian War, or rather NOPE-ing the hell out of it and waiting for the dust to settle so he can presumably move in to support the winner.

However, it is very unlikely that the NCR's own populace would support such a move, and the Californian leadership, most of whom are over fifty and were adults during the country's brutalization at Victorian hands, would be reluctant to consider such a move. Imagine how hesitant someone like Sara Johnson or Ron Burns would be to align with the Russians, even against Victoria. Much of the NCR's leadership cadre will consist of people cut from the same cloth- we've already seen one of them.

There is an SR-71 Blackbird in the Air Zoo in Portage Michigan, and I think it is in our territory so, we should probably go fix it. Along with a few other things, they are museum pices but that shouldn't be hard..

Logan: "DARIA WE FOUND THE SR-71 WHERE DO YOU WANT US TO PUT IT!!"
Portage, Michigan is indeed in or near our territory; it's in the southwest corner of the state. However, that SR-71 is very unlikely to be serviceable, would be the only one we have, would require exotic high-temperature parts and fuels not used by any other aircraft in our military and would (importantly) serve no practical purpose. Anything we can get from the SR-71, we could get from Google Maps or its equivalent.

Again, don't think about how cool it would be to have a Blackbird.

Think about what we would do with a Blackbird.

I have my doubts about the viability of mercenary forces operating heavy equipment without nationstate support, but it's alright.
It depends on the definition of 'support' and on whether the international milieu of the era really includes/tolerates mercenaries. In a multipolar world where all minor nations are in the sphere of influence of some larger power that does not tolerate intrusions on its sphere, it wouldn't work out very well. In a unipolar world where the dominant hyperpower actually controls everything, likewise. But in a world like this, where large parts of the planet are effectively up for grabs and where Alexander has deliberately disrupted the international order to bring about more warfare and chaos... it's iffier.

Lockheed YF-12 was the actual fighter version of that plane. Bomber interceptor.
Top speed of Mach 3.35. Flight ceiling of 90,000 feet. Combat radius of 1350 nautical miles/2500 km. Payload of 3 longrange AA missiles.
Canceled after 2 models were built when it was decided that the Soviet bomber threat had receded.

Probably too maintenance intensive to bother.
Yeah. The F-12 was intended as a counter to the Soviets building Mach 3 bombers of their own, analogous to the B-70 Valkyrie. Since the B-70 itself was abandoned by the Americans for valid reasons, it was sensible to assume that the Russians would do the same.

The idea of using Mach 3 aircraft flying at improbably high altitudes to hit enemy air defenses with attacks they can't counter even if they see the things coming isn't... completely stupid... But it relies on certain things going right, and the enemy not being able to invent viable counterweapons. Tactical lasers come to mind, since they work well at high altitude. And I gather that for "New New World" tech (the stuff that's been invented since 2020 in-setting), tactical laser weapons are a tenable thing that can be deployed aboard aircraft.

I have theorized long suspected that part of the Pacific War peace treaty involved a requirement to pay tribute reparations as well, which explains why the 7th largest economy in the world is currently nowhere as prosperous as it should rightfully be, even with the fall of the rest of the US.
To be fair, California's marvelous economy would probably be a lot less prosperous if it couldn't rely on cheap imports of food from, and exports of goods and services to, the rest of the US. Or on lavish supplies of water to support their agricultural sector, which come from inland areas that were probably not under reliable NCR control during the 2050s and '60s.

The United States is one of the world's largest and most prosperous free-trade zones, and has been for many decades; California's economy benefits from this greatly. If it had to rely entirely on overseas imports, lost its biggest export market (other parts of the US), and had the big multinational corporations centered there move away or die out and be replaced by megacorps based out of Russia or elsewhere... Well, California would not be such a powerhouse, as I said.

Not just out of sentiment, but because the Commonwealth serve as a blocking force that prevents Russia's Victorian proxies crawling up their ass and jostling their arm while they tussle with two of the three extant Pacific superpowers. That's not likely to change until the NCR think they can fight and win a multi-front war.
To be fair, given how easily we stopped the Vicks, I don't think California would have trouble stopping them anymore. The decline of rail and road transportation across the Great Plains has basically made it impossible to ship forces overland across the continental United States. The Victorians could probably get an army over the Great Plains, but by the time they arrived they'd just be big bandit troops, and good tactics with attack helicopters would probably be more than enough to see them off long before they hit anything important.

During the Pacific War the Californians were actually threatened in this way... but then, that was back when they were cut off by a Russian naval blockade and when the interstate highways were more or less intact so that a sizeable Victorian-led force could actually reach California.

The real threat Victoria poses to the NCR is that if the Russians can force a beachhead on Californian soil, or invade from the north or south, Victorian sepoys may start hitting them from overland, transported to that territory by the Russians for that express purpose. And the Commonwealth has indeed pretty well nixed that, if only by killing almost all of Victoria's current generation of combat veterans and plunging the nation into a civil war.

-This is a long- and carefully planned rebellion.
You're unlikely to see any of that sort of dumb mob action shit here. California is going to just round up a whole lot of Russian government reps and agents and expel them, while putting civilians into protective custody if necessary.

-Storming embassies and consulates?
Straight up not going to happen. The NCR is seeking diplomatic support and international trade, which is not helped by ignoring international diplomatic norms and standards and allowing your enemies to paint you as outlaws.

Nor do they want to force the Russians into precipitate action.

-No, Russian companies will not be seized.
No one wants to trade in a nation which can seize your shit at a whim. They will simply find themselves having to pay market price for shit, and watched carefully. If they choose to leave *le shrug* good riddance.

It's not like we have any indication that there is significant Russian presence in the Cali economy anyway.

-Spies and espionage operations without diplomatic cover can and will be treated as spies.
Which means arrest, interrogation, trial and imprisonment.
They're sources of information and valuable bargaining chips, not just stuff to be destroyed.

-The Cali law enforcement system would be deployed to prevent that shit.
You're not going to see people being strung up.
The catch is, while the organized forces of rebellion will be all disciplined and orderly, as soon as the rebellion starts, a whole bunch of Californians who weren't in on the plan are likely to start spontaneously trying to help.

Remember how the Iran Hostage Crisis began. Random student rebels basically charged in and seized the American Embassy without telling Khomeini.

The Californian government has a plan. No doubt it has a good plan. But 'having a good plan' is not the same as 'entire national population acts as a coordinated hive mind.' Especially since of necessity, the plan cannot be known by an unmanageably large number of people. Most of the NCR population will be in the dark about what's going on until D-day of the operation. As such, no one can assume that they will simply stand idle and let the well-planned activities of the organized rebellion clean up around them.
 
An assumption that most of the voter base is working off of is if the New California Republic successfully breaks away from Russian control, then they will be hostile to Russia and friendly to us. A few worry that the NCR might turn hostile toward in the future but everybody still assumes that an independent NCR would be hostile to Russia. But could an independent NCR voluntarily align itself with Russia after independence?

I was inspired to ask this by a new TNO update. In The New Order mod, England starts under a Nazi controlled collaborator government. While the pro-Queen Elizabeth royalists and the British socialist movement plot open rebellion under the Free England banner, the collaborationist government can fall under the influence of a pro-democratic reformer movement that quietly plots the removal of the German strings on the collaborationist government. Once the reformers remove the German strings, they can align England with the USA and its alliance which is the obvious choice or rejoin the Nazi Unity Pact alliance as an equal or close to an equal as you can get in an alliance with fascists. Why would an independent democratic England ever voluntarily align with a Nazi Germany that brutalized it not too long ago? Well, the Nazis are strong and scary neighbors who might reinvade England and America is far away. Aligning with the Nazis is the safe and pragmatic realpolitik option.

If the NCR successfully breaks away from Russian control, it would need allies in this dangerous world to survive. The obvious options for California would be American revivalist states like CFC, the Republic of China, or the European Union. The revivalist states like us are close by but they are all weaker and less advanced than the NCR. The Republic of China is a democratic great power hostile with Russia's alliance with ideals directly inspired by old American ideals. But China is far away and hemmed in by an alliance of hostile states including India and Japan. The European Union is a collection of democratic European states who were America's traditional allies. But Europe is far away and California is on the wrong coast to receive timely help with the Panama canal under Russian control. Help from China or Europe would be limited by these factors. So what about Russia? Russia is the reigning superpower and the scary close by neighbor. California and Russia have pre-existing economic ties. Rejoining the Russian alliance would ward off extreme punishment from Russia and attacks from Victoria or Japan's West Coast colonies. An willing allied NCR would be a far more capable ally in North America for Russia than the Victorians could be. A Russian alignment could be the pragmatic option for an independent NCR. There is historical precedent for a liberal democratic state allying with the nearby fascist power over more far away more ideologically similar states (Finland during WW2) and plenty of newly independent states have aligned themselves with their former masters even after hard won independence wars.


The counterpoint is while states very often make distasteful decisions on ice cold realpolitik, it is not the only thing that moves states and leaders to do things on the international stage. The people and leadership of the NCR might find the thought of rejoining the Russian alliance and playing second fiddle too distasteful to even consider after the effort to break away or what the Russians have done to them even if it might be the pragmatic thing to do.

What are your thoughts on the issue? Assumptions taken for granted in real life and Poptart quests can be dangerous.

Russia isn't any closer than China. Most of Russian economy is near Moscow. Any supplies of theirs would have to get shipped across the trans-Siberian railroad to Vladivostok and then across the Pacific. China can just send stuff straight across the Pacific.

China is also better odds long term in terms of military and economic power. The only reason not to ally with them is authoritarianism and they just switched to democracy so that's no longer a concern.
 
The sky rumbles, and Burns halts, slowly lifting up his face. A drop of rain falls on his face. A smile flickers across his features. Rain and mud, he prays. God Almighty, please, send us rain and mud. Keep us covered from up there.
Something that just occurred to me:

The Victorian Army could have saved themselves tens of thousands of casualties, or at least mitigated the size of their defeat, if they had just consulted a meteorologist and a longterm weather forecast when they were making their invasion plans.
Or just checked the Internet.

A week of severe rainstorms over the Great Lakes is the sort of weather system that would be visible on any sort of global weather satellite system like several days out. And it also means that both European and Russian meteorologists must have been going WTF when they heard of the timing of the Vic invasion.

For some reason that tickles the shit out of me.
Not that they thought it would fail, mind. Just that they thought it would be unnecessarily expensive in manpower.
 
Something that just occurred to me:

The Victorian Army could have saved themselves tens of thousands of casualties, or at least mitigated the size of their defeat, if they had just consulted a meteorologist and a longterm weather forecast when they were making their invasion plans.
Or just checked the Internet.

A week of severe rainstorms over the Great Lakes is the sort of weather system that would be visible on any sort of global weather satellite system like several days out. And it also means that both European and Russian meteorologists must have been going WTF when they heard of the timing of the Vic invasion.

For some reason that tickles the shit out of me.
Not that they thought it would fail, mind. Just that they thought it would be unnecessarily expensive in manpower.
It's darkly amusing, but honestly I'm not sure the rain was that decisive? It's hard to find the dice roll posts, since they're usually not indexed, but my honest impression is that the rainstorms were mainly relevant 'on the margin.'
 
it was the difference between the Victorian cargo ships supplying the Leamington assault and getting wrecked in the storm so I'd say it was pretty important
 
It's darkly amusing, but honestly I'm not sure the rain was that decisive? It's hard to find the dice roll posts, since they're usually not indexed, but my honest impression is that the rainstorms were mainly relevant 'on the margin.'
It was. I quote:
Ahhh! There's something satisfying about being able to see tangible reductions in my level of overwork, day by day! Last week sucked, but this week I actually have holes in my schedule!

Let's fill 'em with quests.

And speaking of, what did we need to roll, here?

[X] Plan Raise Periscope
-[X][AIR] The air force is shattered, its pilots badly burnt out. Stand them down and give them a break. In the unlikely event that you need to piss away four planes at a later date, you can always call them back up again. It's not like their odds of making a dent will meaningfully improve by staying geared up.
-[X][NAVY] Enemy air supremacy and foul weather, in shallow-drafted boats with no deck armor? Yeah, no. Pull your gunships back, and await a better opportunity. Time plays to your advantage with both of these problems. The army can endure, but every ship you lose is precious.
-[X] Write-in: You don't know what the other half of the Victorian army is doing. Make it a priority to get some reconnaissance information on the situation south of the defense lines on the south side of the city, by whatever means seem feasible and not needlessly dangerous. This may include naval action after the weather clears, but not air action with the handful of planes you have left.

Ah, yes.

Now, you have declined to do things with your navy or (what is left of) your air force, so we will not roll for those. Victoria just gets air supremacy, modified by weather (and it is foul weather). They would get naval supremacy, but...well.

As it stands, they will attempt to get their remaining cargo ships -- what few remain -- over to Leamington to bring supplies to their troops there, and for that, they will roll. You aren't contesting this one, it's just the Vicks vs. the DC I'm generating now. That DC, for a full-blown Great Lakes storm, being 3. If they beat the DC, they make it to Leamington and resupply their forces. If they meet but do not beat the DC, they fail to make it through the weather and turn back to base. If they do not meet the DC, they take damage in the storm.


Victorian Modifiers

No opposition: 2 points.
Experienced hands: 1 point.
Shaky morale: -1 point.
Handicapped shipbuilding: -1 point.

Total Modifier: 1 point.

EDIT: Oh, dear.
Tee hee. :drevil:

They ain't getting through with that roll. They're turning back...and they're leaving some hulls behind.

Not that that's of any immediate concern to you, or, indeed, to the troops those ships were attempting to resupply. Pressing concern, compounding on itself over time, but the only true immediate concern to a proper Victorian man is his ability to come to grips with the vile Cultural Marxists and righteously slay them!

Speaking of, how's that going for them? Their objective is, "Smash the Cultural Marxists from the field."

Victorian Modifiers:

Numbers: 3 points.
Troop quality: 2 points.
Fanaticism: 1 point.
Supply status: -2 points.
Rain and mud: -1 point.

Total Modifier: 3 points.

Did anybody account for the torrential Great Lakes storm about to smash the area when calculating what the Vicks would have to work with?

I did.

The Vicks' numbers advantage has gone down not because you inflicted serious losses mid-retreat, but because you've fallen back to the second defense line centered on Essex and therefore are opposing their advance with more troops.

Your objective is, "Hold the defense line if able, retreat in good order after inflicting losses if not."

Commonwealth Modifiers:

Troop quality: 1 point.
Artillery advantage: 1 point.
Fortifications: 1 point.
Mobile assets advantage (SUCK IT LIND!): 1 point.

Total Modifier: 4 points.

*pauses*

I just want to commemorate this moment. For the first time, in actual ground combat, you have an outright modifier advantage over the Victorians. It only gets worse for them from here. If you hold here, I'm fairly certain that you hold, period.
This is a big moment. Let's see how the Vicks roll.
After the navy sank the invasion fleet?
The weather raised the DC for resupply to DC3, and they rolled a total of 2.
This then translated to a Rain and Mud malus of -1, AND a Supply malus of -2.

And that's just for the bunch from Leamington. Lemme see if I can find the rolls for the southern force.
 
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Okay, here are the rolls for the Southern Force:
All right, you've destroyed them so comprehensively you can completely count them out. They are running, dead, or captured.

Including officers. :evil:

This all took about a day before Burns decided the 1st wasn't really needed anymore for the purposes of chasing down the shattered remnants of the Victorian force and turned things over to the others. The rest spent another day running down organized formations until none remained. They then redeployed to spots on the southern front behind the Raisin Line to rest and replace those units who moved up to the Raisin Line.

We now move to the south. Now, your objective here, per the plan, is low-commitment skirmishing with the scouting screen in order to cover for fucking over the line of advance. Mines, per the plan, but there's no real reason not to shell any places the Vicks will need to stop on the way up. Various other things as they come up. The rain and mud works against both sides, but against the Vicks more, since they need to react to and pursue you while pressuring you hard enough to make your job impossible. And also because they're the ones trying to advance to a timetable.

Some modifiers will apply differently from normal.

Your objective is, "Distract the Victorian scouts from your route-wrecking efforts."

Commonwealth Modifiers

Shore bombardment: 2 points.
Pre-sighted: 1 point.
Rainy with a chance of artillery: 1 point.
Troop quality: 1 point.

Total Modifier: 5 points.

The Victorians' objective is, "Advance according to the timetable."

Victorian Modifiers

Numbers: 2 points.
Troop quality: 2 points.
Universal motorization: 2 points.
Light infantry specialization: 1 point.
Air supremacy: 1 point.
Supply status (not actively worsening, but they can't get better than this under these circumstances): -1 point.
Rain and mud: -3 points.

Total Modifier:
4 points.

Total force numbers count for a lot less in this situation. Supplies are literally being caravanned in a huge mass behind the column and are not even slightly being distributed how a force this size needs. The rain and mud is so huge because they are not only trying to advance on time, they are fending off constant attacks and trying to entrap those attacks with small encirclements, per doctrine. Through mud. While operating under a doctrine that emphasizes commanders on the ground bucking orders when they feel like it.

Let's see how they do!
-3 malus due to Rain and Mud.

I am going to suggest that we establish a military meteorological department as a matter of urgency.
:V
 
it was the difference between the Victorian cargo ships supplying the Leamington assault and getting wrecked in the storm so I'd say it was pretty important
The thing is, the storm was going to happen whether they consulted a meteorologist or not. The only difference is that they could have delayed operations on account of the rain. But the Leamington force needed resupply right then; leaving them to sit and wait for the weather to improve was not a realistic option because they were, at a minimum, combat-ineffective without those supplies.

Knowing the storm was coming could have changed their plans, but I think they'd just have been screwed over in a different way then.

Okay, here are the rolls for the Southern Force:

-3 malus due to Rain and Mud.
OK now THAT was relevant. The thing is, again, their alternative was to delay the offensive until the rain let up. If they had done so, they could have advanced under favorable weather conditions... but they'd have been facing the same Devil Brigade units on the Raisin Line that fried their Waffen CMC division, because by the time the rain let up, our heavy hitters would have been in position.

That roll was important because it determined how much we'd be able to delay the Victorians as they advanced through the rain... but their only alternative was to not try to advance through the rain at all, in which case we wouldn't have even had to try to delay them. They'd probably have taken incrementally fewer casualties along the line of march due to our skirmishing, but they'd have arrived at the Raisin Line as late if not later.
 
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I think the argument is that if they hadn't been so supremely overconfident, they would have waited for the storm to pass before attacking, which would have been to their advantage.
If I remember rightly, if they had waited for the storm to pass, they'd have given us, for free, the time we needed to annihilate the eastern invasion force around Essex by hitting them with the Devil Brigade, then reposition the bulk of our forces on the Raisin Line.

This is the same stuff that we were so worried about our ability to do- it's why we even bothered to deploy skirmishers to delay the Victorian advance.

The rain let our skirmishers slow them down badly because they tried to advance through it.

If they'd waited for the rain to stop, our skirmishers would have been all like "rain sucks, but where are the Viks?" They'd have looked around, realized that the Victorian army wasn't going to be showing up any time soon, then helped our artillery pre-register on various targets of interest, randomly pulled down a bunch of trees to block up the roads more, planted some more booby traps, and then driven away giggling. The Victorians wouldn't have hit us any sooner. They'd probably have taken fewer casualties on the approach, but given how disastrous everything AFTER they made contact the Raisin Line was for them, I don't think that would have made any real difference.
 
If I remember rightly, if they had waited for the storm to pass, they'd have given us, for free, the time we needed to annihilate the eastern invasion force around Essex by hitting them with the Devil Brigade, then reposition the bulk of our forces on the Raisin Line.

This is the same stuff that we were so worried about our ability to do- it's why we even bothered to deploy skirmishers to delay the Victorian advance.

The rain let our skirmishers slow them down badly because they tried to advance through it.

If they'd waited for the rain to stop, our skirmishers would have been all like "rain sucks, but where are the Viks?" They'd have looked around, realized that the Victorian army wasn't going to be showing up any time soon, then helped our artillery pre-register on various targets of interest, randomly pulled down a bunch of trees to block up the roads more, planted some more booby traps, and then driven away giggling. The Victorians wouldn't have hit us any sooner. They'd probably have taken fewer casualties on the approach, but given how disastrous everything AFTER they made contact the Raisin Line was for them, I don't think that would have made any real difference.
What they are suggesting, Simon, is not that the Victorians should have delayed their resupply attempt or the effort to launch the southern thrust in particular, but that they should have delayed the entire invasion of Detroit, since the signs of adverse weather conditions for a storm of this magnitude would have been visible for weeks in advance and any offensive operation through the rain and mud against an entrenched defender is foolishness only a Victorian could love.
 
What they are suggesting, Simon, is not that the Victorians should have delayed their resupply attempt or the effort to launch the southern thrust in particular, but that they should have delayed the entire invasion of Detroit, since the signs of adverse weather conditions for a storm of this magnitude would have been visible for weeks in advance and any offensive operation through the rain and mud against an entrenched defender is foolishness only a Victorian could love.
Ahh. So like, delay the entire operation.

I don't know how good long-range weather forecasting is.

They'd need a timeframe of at least a few weeks during which they could be confident no major storm systems would hit. That might have entailed, essentially, "wait until a less rainy season of the year."

And that would in turn have given us more time to get dug in and improve fortifications, which I suspect would have helped.
 
What @PoptartProdigy and @Lightwhispers said.
And it would have been absurdly cheap too, at least in comparison to what they pay to fuel a T34 or F16, to buy a subscription to a meteorological service. I'm waiting to see if the New Model Army deprecates the REMFs again.

Or rather, how badly it does so.
Ahh. So like, delay the entire operation.
I don't know how good long-range weather forecasting is.
A five day forcast is accurate about 90% of the time.
Seven days, 80%.
Ten days or longer, 50%.

How Reliable Are Weather Forecasts? | NOAA SciJinks – All About Weather

It all depends on how far in advance you’re trying to forecast!

They'd need a timeframe of at least a few weeks during which they could be confident no major storm systems would hit. That might have entailed, essentially, "wait until a less rainy season of the year."
Not really.

A day or two of rain imposes survivable delays for a military op in progress, as long as you're not in hurricane season. A week of rainstorms?
Remember, for the entire week that the Leamington force was assaulting our defense, it was raining pretty hard.
The kind of weatherfront that produces that sort of weather you can generally notice about two weeks out. A sensible high command would delay.

I mean, now I think of it, they weren't entirely unfortunate.
If the rainstorm had hit during the landings, with their frail boats on the Great Lakes, they'd have all died on the beaches.
And that would in turn have given us more time to get dug in and improve fortifications, which I suspect would have helped.
We'd been digging in all winter. Plus the extra month after we sank their first navy.
At that point we'd be simply gilding the lily.
 
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What @PoptartProdigy and @Lightwhispers said.
And it would have been absurdly cheap too, at least in comparison to what they pay to fuel a T34 or F16, to buy a subscription to a meteorological service. I'm waiting to see if the New Model Army deprecates the REMFs again.

Or rather, how badly it does so.

A five day forcast is accurate about 90% of the time.
Seven days, 80%.
Ten days or longer, 50%.

How Reliable Are Weather Forecasts? | NOAA SciJinks – All About Weather

It all depends on how far in advance you’re trying to forecast!

Not really.

A day or two of rain imposes survivable delays for a military op in progress, as long as you're not in hurricane season. A week of rainstorms?
Remember, for the entire week that the Leamington force was assaulting our defense, it was raining pretty hard.
The kind of weatherfront that produces that sort of weather you can generally notice about two weeks out. A sensible high command would delay.
Hm. I suppose they could have just sat around in Toledo and waited for the giant week of rain to pass.

But they would need to plan on at least a few weeks of operations to be confident of defeating our armies in the field, I would think. And by the time they could confidently say "OK, this storm's past, time to roll out," they might well be staring down the barrel of another. And another.

For all we know, the Vicks did check the weather forecast to make sure they wouldn't be trying to stage an amphibious landing in the middle of a thunderstorm, and would have clear weather specifically for their jets to sink our gunboats in case we tried to interfere.

...

But then, they knew they'd be attacking in the rain, and figured their troops could handle it. If they waited about 7-10 days and delayed the entire operation correspondingly, they might still face the complication of having another big storm on the way- because that storm system couldn't have been predicted in advance prior to the arrival of the first storm system. So "wait for the big storm systems to pass" could easily have devolved into "wait until the season of the year in which Detroit is susceptible to big storm systems passes." I don't know how feasible that would be.

We'd been digging in all winter. Plus the extra month after we sank their first navy.
At that point we'd be simply gilding the lily.
For a significant chunk of the winter, we'd been digging into frozen ground, and unable to resupply the expeditionary force reliably due to lake ice. Two more weeks' delay to wait out a storm system and wait for the ground to dry out could plausibly have given us further time to significantly strengthen our defensive preparations in certain positions. And, again, it might have been more than two weeks.

And the Victorians could only have a rough idea of what the Commonwealth's mobilization capability is. We might have (remember, as far as the Vicks know) been able to bring up more troops and reinforce those beach defenses further, reducing the Victorian Numbers bonus during the beach landings. Or bring in more artillery. Or who knows what.

Knowing that a big storm system would hit during their offensive, the Victorians might have reasoned that this would impose on them a disadvantage more manageable than the disadvantage of sitting on their asses for ?? weeks while waiting for two or three weeks of guaranteed sunny weather. And that choice would be far, FAR less bad than many of the other command decisions they made during the battle.
 
Hm. I suppose they could have just sat around in Toledo and waited for the giant week of rain to pass.

But they would need to plan on at least a few weeks of operations to be confident of defeating our armies in the field, I would think. And by the time they could confidently say "OK, this storm's past, time to roll out," they might well be staring down the barrel of another. And another.

For all we know, the Vicks did check the weather forecast to make sure they wouldn't be trying to stage an amphibious landing in the middle of a thunderstorm, and would have clear weather specifically for their jets to sink our gunboats in case we tried to interfere.

...

But then, they knew they'd be attacking in the rain, and figured their troops could handle it. If they waited about 7-10 days and delayed the entire operation correspondingly, they might still face the complication of having another big storm on the way- because that storm system couldn't have been predicted in advance prior to the arrival of the first storm system. So "wait for the big storm systems to pass" could easily have devolved into "wait until the season of the year in which Detroit is susceptible to big storm systems passes." I don't know how feasible that would be.

For a significant chunk of the winter, we'd been digging into frozen ground, and unable to resupply the expeditionary force reliably due to lake ice. Two more weeks' delay to wait out a storm system and wait for the ground to dry out could plausibly have given us further time to significantly strengthen our defensive preparations in certain positions. And, again, it might have been more than two weeks.

And the Victorians could only have a rough idea of what the Commonwealth's mobilization capability is. We might have (remember, as far as the Vicks know) been able to bring up more troops and reinforce those beach defenses further, reducing the Victorian Numbers bonus during the beach landings. Or bring in more artillery. Or who knows what.

Knowing that a big storm system would hit during their offensive, the Victorians might have reasoned that this would impose on them a disadvantage more manageable than the disadvantage of sitting on their asses for ?? weeks while waiting for two or three weeks of guaranteed sunny weather. And that choice would be far, FAR less bad than many of the other command decisions they made during the battle.



Campaign season exists for a reason, because its the only time such societies can actually feasibly wage war. Because of how the great lakes are, it probably exists for Victoria too, storm season being a significant factor in it. They just didnt know that campaign season exists yet.
 
Hm. I suppose they could have just sat around in Toledo and waited for the giant week of rain to pass.
But they would need to plan on at least a few weeks of operations to be confident of defeating our armies in the field, I would think. And by the time they could confidently say "OK, this storm's past, time to roll out," they might well be staring down the barrel of another. And another.

For all we know, the Vicks did check the weather forecast to make sure they wouldn't be trying to stage an amphibious landing in the middle of a thunderstorm, and would have clear weather specifically for their jets to sink our gunboats in case we tried to interfere.
They didn't really plan for a multiweek campaign to take Detroit IIRC; they expected to hit us and we'd crumble. Whoever the unsung hero who stockpiled supplies just in case was(if we're lucky, he's been executed with the old regime, because smart enemies are bad), his pessimism was probably in part for pacification of the surrounding areas and as supplies for the eventual next stage.

At least, that's how he'd have explained it to the brass.
But then, they knew they'd be attacking in the rain, and figured their troops could handle it. If they waited about 7-10 days and delayed the entire operation correspondingly, they might still face the complication of having another big storm on the way- because that storm system couldn't have been predicted in advance prior to the arrival of the first storm system. So "wait for the big storm systems to pass" could easily have devolved into "wait until the season of the year in which Detroit is susceptible to big storm systems passes." I don't know how feasible that would be.
The longer they wait, the farther they are from spring storm season. And the better the weather.
The Germans predicated their original plans to start WW2 on the weather.
During the initial campaigns of the war, German commanders made excellent use of weather in planning their operations. Dry weather and relatively clear skies were essential for optimum employment of their blitzkrieg tactics employing armored Panzer divisions with Luftwaffe close air support. They used climatology and long range forecasts calling for below normal rainfall) to select September 1939 for their invasion of Poland. The forecast and campaign were completely successful. Hitler then turned his attention to the invasion of France which he wanted to occur in mid-October 1939. The German Army chiefs, however, considered 12 November as the earliest possible date for the invasion. A storm system caused this initial date to be postponed until 17 November. Thereafter, D-Day was postponed 16 more times between November 1939 and May 1940 because Hitler's meteorologists could not assure him of a prolonged period of good weather considered necessary to accomplish his objectives rapidly, When the invasion did occur in May 1940, dry soil conditions and good flying weather again favored Germany's blitzkrieg operations.

AUTHOR: Gary D. Atkinson, LTC, USAF
FORMAT: A Monograph
DATE 13 February 1973
PAGES: 37 CLASSIFICATION: UnclassifiedT
Impact of Weather on Milizary Operations: Past, Present, Future
Pg 10-11

Note that there are decades of meteorological records of what the weather in the Great Lakes region is like, even post-Collapse. The kind of records international meteorological forecasters would have, both commercial and military. Russia would have the records as well, because planning to bomb a region during the Cold War included having a good idea what the weather you were sending aircraft into was like.

This is the sort of thing that good staff planning at Army HQ would consider. But the Vics run their military out of a diner.

For a significant chunk of the winter, we'd been digging into frozen ground, and unable to resupply the expeditionary force reliably due to lake ice. Two more weeks' delay to wait out a storm system and wait for the ground to dry out could plausibly have given us further time to significantly strengthen our defensive preparations in certain positions. And, again, it might have been more than two weeks.

And the Victorians could only have a rough idea of what the Commonwealth's mobilization capability is. We might have (remember, as far as the Vicks know) been able to bring up more troops and reinforce those beach defenses further, reducing the Victorian Numbers bonus during the beach landings. Or bring in more artillery. Or who knows what.

Knowing that a big storm system would hit during their offensive, the Victorians might have reasoned that this would impose on them a disadvantage more manageable than the disadvantage of sitting on their asses for ?? weeks while waiting for two or three weeks of guaranteed sunny weather. And that choice would be far, FAR less bad than many of the other command decisions they made during the battle.
With tools and manpower. Four months when you count the winter and the delay due to the naval raid.
And we apparently managed to move significant stockpiles into the city before the winter froze the waterways.
As for the rest, Vic doctrine discounted artillery in toto, and expected to carry beach defenses by elan. You forget how crazy their field doctrine is.
 
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