Voting is open
i disagree with this specific point. They attacked us without provocation, pretending reparations is perfectly reasonable.
And if they don't have gold they can give us iron. or oil. or chromium, or whatever mineral they happen to have in abundance, especially if we lack it.
-That was obviously done by the old, corrupt government, with the support of the CMC. Which has been overthrown. /s

The easy way to get them international sympathy would be to show civilians suffering because they have to pay reparations to a vengeful Commonwealth. Reparations we don't need at that, not for food.
Which would then allow them to break the treaty and muddle international perceptions at the same time.

There is almost certainly going to be low-level famine in Victoria in the next year or two, with much of the male population at war.
We don't want to give Blackwell a foreign scapegoat to blame their economic troubles on for domestic consumption, or to wave the bloody shirt for international sympathy.

We have an image to manage, and it's more critical to us because we don't have a superpower sugardaddy.

-We have access to more resources by the fact of controlling Detroit and the entry to the upper three Lakes, and a navy on the fourth.
Pre-War Victoria imported resources from much of the Great Lakes. And with the civil war ongoing and involving much of the adult males, they aren't going to be producing very much for the next couple years anyway.

The thing they have that we need and they can give without expenditure is international trade access and diplomatic/military concessions.
And it looks good to international audiences to boot. Some of whom are commercial interests, looking for economic opportunities.
We are playing to an audience, some of whom are Russian-adjacent, but not necessarily Vic supporters. Keep that in mind.
 
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But if we do that, then we need to make sure that the citizenship problem is resolved, or we could quiet literally have a riot on our hands. [4 ap diplomacy, 2 ap domestic]. And if we do that, we need to deal with the fascists lest the sabotage it or benefit from moving it through .[4 ap diplomacy, 3 ap domestic]

That all uses up all 5 of our ap. Which locks out "local conference" which has been hinted at our best change to deal with hostile neighbors, and if we don't contact them, it's likely to get a lot worse. Granted, we could try putting one point into the refugee problem and hoping "we are working on it" is a satisfying answer. We could also give up outreach and hope that as long as we are buying directly, they don't need to like us. Or hope that we can use the conferences location in FCNY to make contact with them.
we could put 1 point in refugees AND/OR outreach. The really important thing is starting those actions, especially the refugee one if you're that worried about it.

that leaves some (slight) breathing room

-That was obviously done by the old, corrupt government, with the support of the CMC. Which has been overthrown. /s

The easy way to get them international sympathy would be to show civilians suffering because they have to pay reparations to a vengeful Commonwealth. Reparations we don't need at that, not for food. Which would then allow them to break the treaty and muddle international perceptions at the same time.

There is almost certainly going to be low-level famine in Victoria in the next year or two, with much of the male population at war.
We don't want to give Blackwell a foreign scapegoat to blame it on for domestic consumption, or to wave the bloody shirt for international sympathy.

We have an image to manage, and it's more critical to us because we don't have a superpower sugardaddy.
I think you worry a bit too much about our "image" in this case.

Nobody believes Victoria outside of Victoria, and Blackwell will declare all of the suffering of his people as our fault anyway.
 
To me the decision comes down to this. Blackwell is terrified of us and is backed into a corner. Does he have something worth taking, relative to spending that AP on something like diplomatic outreach or antifascist propaganda? And will he be in a significantly better position in 6 months? If the answer to both is yes, we should go for peace talks. If one is true, then it's a tossup but I favor not peacing out. If neither is yes, we should skip the talks.
My two bits: I'd say the answers are "no" and "yes", respectively.

The problem with the peace is that, in my opinion, Blackwell can't give us anything better for one AP than what we can get elsewhere. Reparations would be nice, but our options are limited by how completely Victoria despises us, and by how little they actually have to spare due to their civil war. Allowing international trade would be nice, but it's going to be difficult to get rolling and is always going to be a house of cards, because it's entirely reliant on Victorian cooperation. Blackwell will either seize goods meant for us, or just find a pretext to close it off the moment he's fully in charge of the country. And a free casus belli would be nice, but we already have one; it's called "you're unhinged, genocidal fascists, and we are putting you down".

So it's tough to justify spending the AP. Normally, I'd be all for it, but this turn, it's got some extremely stiff competition.

EDIT: Nearly forgot to add: yeah, Blackwell is probably going to be in a better place in six months, but there's not much we can do about that, unfortunately.
 
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We have an image to manage, and it's more critical to us because we don't have a superpower sugardaddy.
Calling russia a Sugar daddy to victoria is an Insult to Russia and the Superpower status it holds.

Victoria is a means to an end to Russia, NOTHING MORE!!

I think you worry a bit too much about our "image" in this case.

Nobody believes Victoria outside of Victoria, and Blackwell will declare all of the suffering of his people as our fault anyway
Plus we already know they don't Negotiate in Good Fate anyway...so the only reason that we even go to NY anyway....is to meet Auntie New York and seacretly plot to Kill Victoria.
 
Plus we already know they don't Negotiate in Good Fate anyway...so the only reason that we even go to NY anyway....is to meet Auntie New York and seacretly plot to Kill Victoria.
well, that, a few resources/blood money, and also to get the free casus belli and a few turns of peace, while in the meanwhile we're literally justified in killing/capturing any victorian that dares to come to our territory. Aid workers or not.
 
we could put 1 point in refugees AND/OR outreach. The really important thing is starting those actions, especially the refugee one if you're that worried about it.

that leaves some (slight) breathing room
The plan calls for only one into outreach. I'm much less sanguine about the refugees going "well we're working on it".

That would be an almost necessary freebie, yes.

So this does offer a potential solution. We delay outreach a turn, in favor of the peace conference and FCNY. We know they have lots of trade networks, and are probably the single largest source for east coast news for most of the world. Get in good with them and we can let them put us in contact with people. Equally, while the can't get military equipment, the easily have the contacts to purchase the industrial and computer equipment we need, and an incentive to keep us as the big bad Victoria is focused on.

Granted, it would make them acting neutral, so they would need to make sure that they are only putting us in contact, not directly doing it. Still, it might be worth asking if there is anything the FCNY wants us to ask for (after all they had to have a reason to offer to host). Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think that this is more a chance to contact FCNY with a treaty side-benefit. Like, reading between the lines, they must have a reason to want to host, and I'm curious as to what. I don't think their reasons are beneficial to Victoria.

My two bits: I'd say the answers are "no" and "yes", respectively.

The problem with the peace is that, in my opinion, Blackwell can't give us anything better for one AP than what we can get elsewhere. Reparations would be nice, but our options are limited by how completely Victoria despises us, and by how little they actually have to spare due to their civil war. Allowing international trade would be nice, but it's going to be difficult to get rolling and is always going to be a house of cards, because it's entirely reliant on Victorian cooperation. Blackwell will either seize goods meant for us, or just find a pretext to close it off the moment he's fully in charge of the country. And a free casus belli would be nice, but we already have one; it's called "you're unhinged, genocidal fascists, and we are putting you down".

So it's tough to justify spending the AP. Normally, I'd be all for it, but this turn, it's got some extremely stiff competition.

EDIT: Nearly forgot to add: yeah, Blackwell is probably going to be in a better place in six months, but there's not much we can do about that, unfortunately.
True, but no one is negotiating based on international trade remaining open. Just open long enough to import a few critical infrastructure aiding tools. Hopefully we have well started on securing the Mississippi by then.
 
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I think you worry a bit too much about our "image" in this case.
Nobody believes Victoria outside of Victoria, and Blackwell will declare all of the suffering of his people as our fault anyway.
-I don't think I do.

-Few people in North America believes Victoria. Few people in Europe do either. The rest of the international audience is up in the air.
People believed Stalin IRL when he disclaimed evidence of purges. People did not believe rumors of the Holocaust even when the Nazis were deporting Jews in job lots. I could go on.

Never discount the gullibility of segments of the population. Or else things like Brexit would not have happened in this AU, which was a mostly self-inflicted injury. Exacerbated by Alexander, but the original injury was self-inflicted by delusional Brits.

-Which is easier for him to do when he can actively point at reparations leaving the Victorian economy.
I am very much against helping Blackwell build a Stabbed In The Back narrative to enhance his regime's internal legitimacy for the sake of a few paltry resources that he'll do his best to cheat at the first opportunity.

Never do an enemy a small injury.
 
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Gods..... I want Detroit, since Detroit is going to give us access to resources but im afraid of biting off more than we can chew. Remember, Detroit as per clockwork omake had problems planting so they going to face a food shortage in the future . Food shortages means bandits, especially with remmants of Victorian insurgents and spillover from the civil war. Also, enterprising towns already raided Victoria supplies. There is no reason to assume similar entrepreneur dont exist on the Detroit borders, especially if food and refugees movement, ppl evacuating from detroit and now coming back are vulnerable.

Lastly, i afraid of a malus from hostile neighourhood triggering , saying we fought so as to annex Detroit.


To put it simply, if i vote for detroit intergration, i going to go full bore on security, including annexing Toledro to get her divisions, then intelligence servicea is next. But i dont want to. Its a huge sandwich, we going to face a lot of disruptions intergrating them and that means trouble on the home front.

For all practical purposes, detroit and toledro are our allies now. There probably a DC penalty in the future but theres no need to expand territory now to get Detroit resource trading network. Especially since we cant go east yet.


So... I going to go a bit Confucian for now. The fundamentals of a strong government is trust by her people, legitimancy, food and then arms. We need to expand, but it should be on the strong legs of prosperity, freedom, security and legitimancy.

[ ] Forging the Sword: 1 AP invested. We need to firm up our military bones, including designing our weapons for next time. Its also time to decide if we want an expeditionary military or defensive one. I vote expeditionary.

[ ] Reintegrate Audrey's Network: Audrey's old network has reemerged from hiding with the end of the Erie Campaign. You would really like to have a spy service now, please and thank you. 1 AP point.

We need this, just for monitoring the civil war if for nothing else . More importantly. Somebody attacked them. Our enemies saw them as a key obstacle. And then attacked our leaders, with aid from traitors from within. Alexander washed his hands off VICTORIA. It doesnt mean the Russians arent throwing the kitchen sink at us vis cloak and dagger, and our spies already told us that their assasins were too good to be Victorian. Aka. okhrana. I spend more points here if it wasnt so desperately needed elsewhere.

The military threat has receded for now. But there ARE other dangers out there. The most powerful military is useless if the threats are hidden.

Diplomatic offensive
[ ] Local Conference: 1 AP

[ ] Midwest Industrial Conference: 1 AP

Yes, the Midwest Industrial Conference is under economics but face it, we NEED local support. I can quote stuff from like Warring States Analect, where Qin is advised that close neighbours is more important and dangerous than dangerous superpowers. An action which is going to reduce further DC for future industrial expansion? TAKE. TAKE. TAKE.
Its time to seize our victory and turn what has been a danger to us into a firm victory, by aligning our immediate neighbours into our sphere of power and influence. But what about foreign recognition?
We have no ports, so we not getting foreign aid. Foreign recognition may help us fend off Russian intervention. But if a lot of states recognise us, that just means Russia is going to view us as a greater threat. And yes, a peace treaty is nice and all but we ALREADY have peace. Victoria isn't going to be able to fight us or detroit. Peace talks isn't going to get us anything that we don't already have.


[ ] Refugee Crisis: 1 AP point only. Legitimancy. Home front support. Especially since we still have victorian sympathizers, who going to attack refugees who are vulnerable. Which can lead to future problems down the road on the home front. We NEED more... But its a placeholder because I remember the history of Singapore. Namely, economic and political success suppress dissent against the ruling party. If we successful elsewhere, this issue can be treated later down on the road.

Finally. Where do I suggest our points? Simply put. Economic power gives us legitimancy. It gives us international influence and influence over our neighbours. It gives us more abilities to fight the Victorians and the Russians.

So,

[ ] Farming Equipment, 2 points

[ ] Infrastructure Projects: 2 points

We need these. Now. And yes, I desperately want to recover technology, but technology without industry means nothing. Ultimately, i see the tech road as being able to upgrade us to fight the Russians on an even keel. We now on the Russians radar. But ultimately, the Russians won't throw an army at us YET. They can finance mercenaries and bandits, support locals to fuck us over, rebuild Victoria and other puppets and disrupt our trade. but with food, we can buy our neighbours and we going to help prevent future unrest in our society. Because unhappy refugees might be exploited or serve as scapegoats for the Unionists or Okhrana. Our borders are very open now, so you can sneak in agents provacteurs easily. But without local support/unrest, that going to make it difficult for them to pull any Rumford nukes and other shit right now.


So....... That's my plan. All internal. Hold our neighbours closer to us, with further allies who can help us. Build up our infrastructure so we can cope with future problems and maybe get more AP, or at least field a better army in the future because ultimately, the Russians are coming. Figure out and stop the internal threats that's coming right now with an intelligence service while snuffing out local unrest that can stop us expanding in the future. We GOT to exploit the dividends we have that destroying the Victorians give us. We don't have an external army coming to crush us now. That's a lot of time we can use. And yes. we can 'draw' it out further but we aren't a superpower. we just don't have the abilities to mess around with the civic affairs in Victoria right now. And we already have an ally in Detroit and Toledro. Intergrating them now just gives us a bigger burger to eat.
 
Gods..... I want Detroit, since Detroit is going to give us access to resources but im afraid of biting off more than we can chew. Remember, Detroit as per clockwork omake had problems planting so they going to face a food shortage in the future . Food shortages means bandits, especially with remmants of Victorian insurgents and spillover from the civil war. Also, enterprising towns already raided Victoria supplies. There is no reason to assume similar entrepreneur dont exist on the Detroit borders, especially if food and refugees movement, ppl evacuating from detroit and now coming back are vulnerable.

Lastly, i afraid of a malus from hostile neighourhood triggering , saying we fought so as to annex Detroit.

To be fair, that was an offhanded remark from WIlliams, not an official City Council plan, and we did wrap up in may. My take is that people are worried about it, but Detroit sits on a trade network . A trade network that is no longer funneling material to Victoria. Part of the reason I want Detroit is it gives us access to that trade network, as well as Erie to buy produce from, which makes us a lot less dependent on specific neighbors selling to us.
 
To be fair, that was an offhanded remark from WIlliams, not an official City Council plan, and we did wrap up in may. My take is that people are worried about it, but Detroit sits on a trade network . A trade network that is no longer funneling material to Victoria. Part of the reason I want Detroit is it gives us access to that trade network, as well as Erie to buy produce from, which makes us a lot less dependent on specific neighbors selling to us.
Like i said. I really really want Detroit too. But i see intergrating Detroit as meaning we have to expand our borders to provide security. Threats from the civil war spilling over from raiding parties to just simple banditry.

Whilw relatively minor, it seems to me that we can have the best of both worlds by simply keeping Detroit as an ally for now, defering intergration for later. It would be much harder YES,since an independent Detroit is going to be more prosperous and able to say no to us. But to put it simply, we already have access to Detroit trading network via trade. We dont have detroit wealth, but detroit needs that money for its security, especially since local challengers from raiders and bandits, to towns trying to prey on Detroit can cover. Which means extended mobilisation of our troops. And of course, we need the AP to negate Hostile neighbourhood, who ARE going to be concerned that we annexed Detroit when helping them.


If Im devious, we already have the best of all worlds now without having to spend more gold to secure detroit. Detroit will help us grow further and faster, but we cant do everything we need. So.... Intergrate Detroit later. After we build up our immediate neighbourhood.

Its what Qin did and they won the empire :)
 
Like i said. I really really want Detroit too. But i see intergrating Detroit as meaning we have to expand our borders to provide security. Threats from the civil war spilling over from raiding parties to just simple banditry.

Whilw relatively minor, it seems to me that we can have the best of both worlds by simply keeping Detroit as an ally for now, defering intergration for later. It would be much harder YES,since an independent Detroit is going to be more prosperous and able to say no to us. But to put it simply, we already have access to Detroit trading network via trade. We dont have detroit wealth, but detroit needs that money for its security, especially since local challengers from raiders and bandits, to towns trying to prey on Detroit can cover. Which means extended mobilisation of our troops. And of course, we need the AP to negate Hostile neighbourhood, who ARE going to be concerned that we annexed Detroit when helping them.


If Im devious, we already have the best of all worlds now without having to spend more gold to secure detroit. Detroit will help us grow further and faster, but we cant do everything we need. So.... Intergrate Detroit later. After we build up our immediate neighbourhood.

Its what Qin did and they won the empire :)

Your talk of spending gold to secure detroit is..... based on some extremely tenuous logic. First, Detroit has been repeatedly referred to by @PoptartProdigy as wealthy, the idea that it's going to be net drain on our coffers does not match with stated facts. Secondly, your entire idea that we would need to moblize troops is based on some rather tortured logic.

Let's be clear, Victoria is being attacked because it sent highly valuable goods outside it's border to people who HATE it. It also just lost a war and has no army. Detroit, did not lose a war. Detroit militia, which was enough to keep people from picking on it before the war, is intact. Better than intact, as it's now full of looted Victoria arms and is trained. If the calculous of attacking Detroit was bad before, it just got worse. Not to mention, that, unlike Victoria, no one hates Detroit, even Toledo was only worried about it.

That's not even talking about us. We just defeated the boodyman, and made it look easy. We are, quiet frankly, the scariest thing anyone can imagine right now. Now, what set of people, (and keep in mind Victoria was not threatened by bandits, it was threatened by organized towns) is going to think. "Boy you know what I want to do, go attack newly incorporated Detroit, which is now part of the Commonwealth. Sure I didn't try this when their army was actively busy fighting with Victoria and I expected them to lose. But now that they won is a great time."

Like you are litterally inventing a problem that does not exist. There is no evidence, anywhere, that there are any bandits threatening Detroit. This is not fallout 4, raiders do not randomly appear to attack people.
 
True, but no one is negotiating based on international trade remaining open. Just open long enough to import a few critical infrastructure aiding tools. Hopefully we have well started on securing the Mississippi by then.
That's definitely more achievable, but it also doesn't change the dynamic involved– Victoria still has plenty of incentives to just grab the stuff. Or say yes now and then refuse once the ships actually arrive at the mouth of the St. Lawrence. It's still worth a shot– but is taking that shot worth locking up an AP this turn? I'm a little skeptical, especially since people seem to want to spend another AP on the libraries. As good as the library is (and it might be worth taking), it's also not time-sensistive, which means we'll have to be even more careful about the free AP we spend on the stuff that is.
 
Your talk of spending gold to secure detroit is..... based on some extremely tenuous logic. First, Detroit has been repeatedly referred to by @PoptartProdigy as wealthy, the idea that it's going to be net drain on our coffers does not match with stated facts. Secondly, your entire idea that we would need to moblize troops is based on some rather tortured logic.

Let's be clear, Victoria is being attacked because it sent highly valuable goods outside it's border to people who HATE it. It also just lost a war and has no army. Detroit, did not lose a war. Detroit militia, which was enough to keep people from picking on it before the war, is intact. Better than intact, as it's now full of looted Victoria arms and is trained. If the calculous of attacking Detroit was bad before, it just got worse. Not to mention, that, unlike Victoria, no one hates Detroit, even Toledo was only worried about it.

That's not even talking about us. We just defeated the boodyman, and made it look easy. We are, quiet frankly, the scariest thing anyone can imagine right now. Now, what set of people, (and keep in mind Victoria was not threatened by bandits, it was threatened by organized towns) is going to think. "Boy you know what I want to do, go attack newly incorporated Detroit, which is now part of the Commonwealth. Sure I didn't try this when their army was actively busy fighting with Victoria and I expected them to lose. But now that they won is a great time."

Like you are litterally inventing a problem that does not exist. There is no evidence, anywhere, that there are any bandits threatening Detroit. This is not fallout 4, raiders do not randomly appear to attack people.
Errr... I already mentioned any Victorian insurgents trapped behind our lines as a potential source of bandits ?

You know. Desperate people preying on evacuaees moving back to Detroit or any other vulnerable people.

as for towns and not challenging the biggest dogs, Chinese pirates challenged the EIC, the subsequent Royal Navy and USN. Brigands are brigands.

Ultimately, i want to spend AP points on upgrading us to smother local dissent, improve our attractiveness and legitimacy with our neighbours and not have to worry about using AP points to secure an expanded border in the Lakes.

Thia while boosting our intelligence. Not only has Poptart been dropping hints about how limited we are by our failed rolls in intel, im still extremely worried about that enemy which targeted and desteoyed Governor audrey intelligence service in the first place.


That being said, i not sayimg grabbing Detroit is a bad idea. Its a GREAT one. The issue is more of AP limitations. Detroit is now our ally. We have access to her trade networks and good will. We dont have their money but shrugs. Rather than risk tying us down there, i want to smother local and neighbour dissent. The conference means our neighbours can see us getting prosperous to be a good thing. Food means we can sell surplus to them. Growing our economy means we can align everyone to us economically, not just Detroit but traverse city.
 
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[ ] Plan: Territory and Food
-[ ] Defense (1 AP)
--[ ] Military Training Reform: (1 AP)
Your armed forces are, to be frank, an absolute disgrace. You have implemented broad logistics reforms as your first priority, but the troops themselves are horrible. Or, at least, they were. The Erie Campaign gave your army valuable experience in combat, and left you with a surplus of experienced troops. Getting your existing army up to par will be easier now than it has ever been, and will take less time. In particular, you have several soldiers and pilots too injured to continue in the field, but who could act as trainers, ones with kinds of experience previously unattainable without Victorian notice. Best act now, before they muster out.
DC: 30. Successes Required: 2. AP Limit: 2. Effect: Raise army base training level to 2/5 (Trained) from 1/5 (Green), level out air force air-to-air training level to 2/5 (Trained) to match its ground attack level. New forces deploy at this level.
-[ ] State (1 AP)
--[ ] Local Conference: (1 Free AP)
Your neighbors betrayed you to the Victorian. Out of fear, yes, but all the same. This cannot simply be allowed to pass unremarked. Your local influence has never been greater, it's time to lean on your achievements, and bring the communities downriver of you and on the Lakes to the table, to discuss the shape of the Midwest in the years to come.
DC: 20. Successes Required: 1. AP Limit: 2. Effect: bring most to all of your neighbors to the negotiating table as the dominant regional power, to discuss the new normal in the sudden absence of Victoria's ability to project any power past Detroit.
--[ ] Detroit Integration: (1 AP)
You fought for Detroit, and unarguably saved the city, regardless of how that broadcaster Williams grumbles. They will be eager to join the Commonwealth, after this victory.
DC: 10. Successes Required: 1. AP Limit: 3. Effect: Accept the City-State of Detroit to the Commonwealth as a member state in full.
--[ ] Toledan Integration: (1 Free AP)
Toledo is nervous. They fought with you at the end, but are definitely aware of how little credit they will now have with you. Since the end of the campaign, they've given you the VAF's material and all of their prisoners of war in an effort to assuage any anger you may have with them; go a step forward. You would be happy to underwrite a militarily powerful city-state on Lake Erie.
DC: 30. Successes Required: 1. AP Limit: 3. Effect: Accept the City-State of Toledo to the Commonwealth as a member state in full. This will involve the democratization of their government, which is one of a few reasons why the DC is higher.
-[ ] Domestic Affairs (1 AP)
--[ ] Anti-Fascist Politics: (1 AP)
Sperling survived the annihilation of most of his party; now you need to ensure that he doesn't get the chance to reestablish himself. Push, in the Congress and to the public, an aggressive narrative discrediting the Victorians, their ideology, their history, their achievements, their technology, their strengths, their politics, EVERYTHING. To an extent, you already do this, but there's always been room for people to say, "Oh, but they're been successful, oh, they've been powerful. Sure, they're authoritarian, but clearly they're efficient." Bullshit, no they're not. Crush this line of thought and put the sympathizers to rest.
DC: 20. Successes Required: 1. AP Limit: 3. Effect: Crush this iteration of fascists. They'll be back eventually -- they always are -- but for now, they'll be done with.
--[ ] Refugee Crisis: (1 Free AP)
Sperling's most lasting damage was the hell he wreaked on the naturalization process. Five years' residency to apply for citizenship -- just to apply! And here, less than two years after the formation of the Commonwealth, you are already considering the admission of new member states, with their citizens becoming yours. You've never considered this a fight worth having -- not when it would burn so much political capital needed for other things -- but now, the issue is about to go hot. Non-citizens fought in the Erie Campaign. Non-citizens died in the Erie Campaign. All of those non-citizens are about to see foreigners hop straight past them to the head of the line. The time is ripe.
DC: 35. Successes Required: 2. AP Limit: 2. Effect: Introduce to Congress legislation correcting Sperling's sabotage of your naturalization process.
-[ ] Development (1 AP)
--[ ] Midwest Industrial Conference: (1 AP)
Chicago is already the nexus of Midwestern trade; the Department wishes to leverage this, inviting active companies from all over the Midwest to a conference hosted by the government and discussing the future of Midwestern industry. The aim is to brings companies both at home and abroad to the table and get their buy-in to the proposed initiatives.
DC: 35. Successes Needed: 1. AP Limit: 2. Effect: Get buy-in across the Midwest for your reindustrialization initiatives, cutting DCs for actions relating to the Department's three-year plan.
--[ ] Farming Equipment, Part 2: (2 Free AP)
Burns's initiative to supply the worst-off with the best you can make fed your population once. With a renewed surge of refugees, you should be able to do that again. There's a wide gulf between those you supplied and the best of the best. Take advantage of better industry and a more integrated refugee population since then, and build for them.
DC: 30. Successes Required: 2. AP Limit: 3. Effect: Subsidize the construction and distribution of additional farming equipment for your new least-advantaged rural population, shoring up your food situation and preempting another starvation crisis.
-[ ] Security (1 AP)
--[ ] Reintegrate Audrey's Network: (1 AP)
Audrey's old network has reemerged from hiding with the end of the Erie Campaign. You would really like to have a spy service now, please and thank you.
DC: 35. Successes Required: 1. AP Limit: 3. Effect: Formalize Audrey's network as a proper foreign intelligence service and organize it into something you can properly run.
-[ ] Technological Recovery (1 AP)
--[ ] Organize the Libraries: (1 AP)
You have more information than has possibly ever existed in one place, but it's just piled up. Desperate scholars and professors have left things in disorganized heaps over the decades. You need this organized if it's to be of use.
DC: 30. Successes Needed: 3 (1/3 complete). AP Limit: 2. Effect: Found the Great Library of Chicago, and get this unholy mess sorted out.

I figure Blackwell can sit on his Peace Talks for a bit. And while its possible he'll become more secure, so will we. Same thing with the Outreach. We'll be in a better bargaining position if we take time to settle.
I was originally thinking of putting Local Conference off till after we brought in Detroit and Toledo so that we'd be bring more weight to the table, but I figure it synergizes with Midwest Industrial Conference, and I am hesitant to put that off.

Finally, I put my last Free AP into Food production even though I really want to finish the Library.
 
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Reminder that if we grab Detroit and Toledo, we will really need Local Conference too, in order to avoid looking like the very same expansionist threat Victoria convinced them we were.

Also, that out of the different military improvement actions, it's Military Training Reform that is time-sensitive:
[ ] Military Training Reform: Your armed forces are, to be frank, an absolute disgrace. You have implemented broad logistics reforms as your first priority, but the troops themselves are horrible. Or, at least, they were. The Erie Campaign gave your army valuable experience in combat, and left you with a surplus of experienced troops. Getting your existing army up to par will be easier now than it has ever been, and will take less time. In particular, you have several soldiers and pilots too injured to continue in the field, but who could act as trainers, ones with kinds of experience previously unattainable without Victorian notice. Best act now, before they muster out. DC: 30. Successes Required: 2. AP Limit: 2. Effect: Raise army base training level to 2/5 (Trained) from 1/5 (Green), level out air force air-to-air training level to 2/5 (Trained) to match its ground attack level. New forces deploy at this level.
 
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Errr... I already mentioned any Victorian insurgents trapped behind our lines as a potential source of bandits ?

You know. Desperate people preying on evacuaees moving back to Detroit or any other vulnerable people.

as for towns and not challenging the biggest dogs, Chinese pirates challenged the EIC, the subsequent Royal Navy and USN. Brigands are brigands.

Ultimately, i want to spend AP points on upgrading us to smother local dissent, improve our attractiveness and legitimacy with our neighbours and not have to worry about using AP points to secure an expanded border in the Lakes.

Thia while boosting our intelligence. Not only has Poptart been dropping hints about how limited we are by our failed rolls in intel, im still extremely worried about that enemy which targeted and desteoyed Governor audrey intelligence service in the first place.


That being said, i not sayimg grabbing Detroit is a bad idea. Its a GREAT one. The issue is more of AP limitations. Detroit is now our ally. We have access to her trade networks and good will. We dont have their money but shrugs. Rather than risk tying us down there, i want to smother local and neighbour dissent. The conference means our neighbours can see us getting prosperous to be a good thing. Food means we can sell surplus to them. Growing our economy means we can align everyone to us economically, not just Detroit but traverse city.

Okay, first, let's start with the Victorian's. First, there arn't any "trapped behind our lines". The only real survivors are the northern force, which we attached from the west, while they were to the east of us, and quickly left only a token force behind once they were broken. We have no forces between them and retreating to Victoria. Sure, every community from here to Victoria is hostile to them, but they can start marching. Them attacking supply lines, requires the following.

1) They are still up for fighting
2) But arn't willing to try to get home
3) And are attacking refugees on the eastern side (as they can't cross water and Detroit is rather in the way)
4) And are a large enough group to in any way threaten Detroit.

I'd like to point out that 3 is fairly major. They have no boats, they can't go over water, and most people fleeing Victoria are probably going to go over water, or at least head AWAY from Victoria. Also, @PoptartProdigy talked about people moving back, and didn't talk about them being attacked by bandits. If that were a concern, I kinda think it would be mentioned. Equally every time the Victoria survivors have been depicted, its a devastated, on the run force, not one sticking around for banditry.

As for the Desperate people, who? The only places the battle were fought were Detroit soil, and if they were in danger of starving, we probably would have had an action to stabalize them. Since we don't, and we know they were able to afford a party busting out horded food, it seems unlikely.

Chinese pirates were a well established regional power, not random groups suddenly popping up. Again, if such a group existed, they would have taken advantage when we were weak, not right now.

You talk about AP limitations. But Detroit is net ap-positive, treating it as a ap-negative because of some fantasy of bandits is ridiculous. And frankly if such bandits existed we would mobilize anyways, because letting our ally fall is terrible strategically, diplomatically and ethically. I can respect waiting based on, say @Simon_Jester fear of pissing off our current population, but don't avoid them based on some imaginary bandits.


I figure Blackwell can sit on his Peace Talks for a bit. And while its possible he'll become more secure, so will we. Same thing with the Outreach. We'll be in a better bargaining position if we take time to settle.
I was originally thinking of putting Local Conference off till after we brought in Detroit and Toledo so that we'd be bring more weight to the table, but I figure it synergizes with Midwest Industrial Conference, and I am hesitant to put that off.

Finally, I put my last Free AP into Food production even though I really want to finish the Library.

I'm not worried about Victoria screwing with Outreach. I am very, very, worried about Russia doing so. Right now we can get our truth out before Russia controls the narrative. Waiting six months will insure Russia has it's story our, and will tell every state that had interest in us that we clearly don't have much interest in them.
 
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I'm not worried about Victoria screwing with Outreach. I am very, very, worried about Russia doing so. Right now we can get our truth out before Russia controls the narrative. Waiting six months will insure Russia has it's story our, and will tell every state that had interest in us that we clearly don't have much interest in them.
I hadn't thought of that, but I'm less concerned about Russia somehow poisoning international opinion of us, then I am of us coming off as desperate. Granted, I am not so worried about that, but I feel our limited AP is better spent closer to home for now.
 
I think the international outreach can wait a turn, as we are going to appear much stronger internationally next turn, and it may be important to keep the local states not too terrified of us after we, in their eyes,annex two cities.

Counterpoint: Russians are very likely to start spreading anti-us propaganda internationally ASAP, and we will not know one way or another whether they did it, let alone start addressing it, without outreach.
We may well get a planetary version of Hostile Neighbourhood if we dawdle on outreach; one turn should not be that bad, but it can still become a factor.
edit: actually, with only Russians presenting their narrative, if turn is 6 months, planet-wide Hostile Neighbourhood would....require them to be a bit lucky, but is not totally out of question, I suppose.
 
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I hadn't thought of that, but I'm less concerned about Russia somehow poisoning international opinion of us, then I am of us coming off as desperate. Granted, I am not so worried about that, but I feel our limited AP is better spent closer to home for now.

Preforming outreach after winning the biggest victory against Victoria the world has ever seen will not make us look desperate. It will make us look intersted. We want the Europeans, when they go shopping for a cheap place to dump supplies to draw off Russian attention in proxy wars, to go "Chicago, yeah that's the horse I want to bet on."
 
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[ ] Plan "Get Our House In Order Before Expanding Again"
- [ ] Department of Defense <1 AP>
-- [ ] Military Training Reform
- [ ] Department of State <1 AP + 1 Free AP>
-- [ ] Local Conference
-- [ ] Outreach
- [ ] Department of Domestic Affairs <1 AP + 3 Free AP>
-- [ ] Census Office
-- [ ] Anti-Fascist Politics
-- [ ] Refugee Crisis
-- [ ] Refugee Crisis x2
- [ ] Department of Development <1 AP + 1 Free AP>
-- [ ] Midwest Industrial Conference
-- [ ] Farming Equipment, Part 2
- [ ] Department of Security <1 AP>
-- [ ] Reintegrate Audrey's Network
- [ ] Department of Technological Recovery <1 AP>
-- [ ] Organize the Libraries

Military Training Reform is the time-sensitive option for military actions, due to veterans mustering out.
Local Conference is necessary to fully remove the Hostile Neighborhood effects, as well as to make sure that our eventual expansion isn't seen as aggressive.
Outreach is necessary to ensure Russia isn't able to impose on us an equivalent of Hostile Neighborhood on a larger scale.
Refugee Crisis is absolutely critical to resolve before we integrate Detroit or Toledo, and both Anti-Fascist Politics and Census Office have powerful synergies with this, as well as being incredibly useful on their own. Anti-Fascist Politics means we won't have a Victorian fifth column sitting in our government, and Census Office is necessary to be able to make sure we're actually addressing the needed and capabilities of our population.
Midwest Industrial Conference is necessary to allow our three-year plan to work, but we also need to take Farming Equipment again in order to make sure that we don't have a resurgence of famine -- with our limited tools for keeping track of our population and economy, it's not something that we would get any more warning than we've already gotten on the matter before suddenly people are going hungry again.
Reintegration of Audrey's Network and Organization of the Libraries are both fairly obvious picks.

Beyond all of that, we have so many things that will bite us in the ass if we plunge headlong into annexing Detroit and Toledo before getting everything else in order.
 
[] Plan The Iron Is Hot Now
-[ ] Forging the Sword x2
-[ ] Military Training Reform
-[ ] Detroit Integration
-[ ] Toledan Integration
-[ ] Anti-Fascist Politics
-[ ] Refugee Crisis x2
-[ ] Midwest Industrial Conference
-[ ] Reintegrate Audrey's Network
-[ ] Organize the Libraries

Outreach is nice, but very definitely not something we need to do now, when we need the AP for military rebuilding, local diplomacy, and integrating our close-by friends. Toledo and Detroit will not be so easy to get in as part of the CFC at any other time. Likewise, now is the time to reforge our army and reorganize. Both are narrow time windows that will not be available later, and we really need them.

The Libraries, Refugees, and Audrey's Network likewise decay fast. So grab them now. Same deal for the Antifacism.

Farming Equipment is nearly as vital, so I could see cutting back one on Libraries or Forging the Sword, but we need at least one in each to keep things moving.
 
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[] Plan The Iron Is Hot Now
-[ ] Forging the Sword x2
-[ ] Military Training Reform
-[ ] Detroit Integration
-[ ] Toledan Integration
-[ ] Anti-Fascist Politics
-[ ] Refugee Crisis x2
-[ ] Midwest Industrial Conference
-[ ] Reintegrate Audrey's Network
-[ ] Organize the Libraries x2
Slight problem with this plan is that it spends 12 out of a total of 11 AP.
 
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