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Burns *is* our most experienced military person. Plus he's notorious to Victoria and no doubt the Russians have had hunterkiller units of Spetnaz trying to headhunt him and his command crew over the years. It's not a surprise that he's faced them before.
 
@Blackstar asked on Discord if a success on Libraries that didn't finish the action would grant some partial benefits. My answer was no, it wouldn't. Generally, stuff that grants ongoing benefits just for participating is because participating is preventing the action from expiring, or checking opposing progress (for instance, investing effort in Detroit meant that the City Council didn't simply submit to the Victorians for want of better options; the partial benefit was that you were preventing the Victorians from making progress on their own actions).

Relatedly, this is what happened to the drones stockpile. A bored Central Security Division officer went looking and found the warehouse.

It was empty.
...Well, crap.

Most probable explanation, some enterprising bunch of criminals found the poorly guarded or unguarded storage facility and looted it, very possibly sharing the proceeds with whoever happened to be guarding the warehouse. The drones themselves were probably sold for scrap because nobody in the Midwest is showing uch interest in operating a fleet of them, and the culprits are very likely gone because we have no consistent means of tracking or identifying our citizens.

Not gone precisely, but DCs have been temporarily reduced regarding how unwise pissing you off is now perceived to be. If you are interested in making it gone, you probably want to get out there working on talking to people rather than knocking out the big scary person on the block before turning to your neighbors who deliberately withheld assistance from you and staring silently.
OK, good reason to take the 'conference' and 'outreach' options and use them seriously. I don't think it's quite time to hold the conference yet but it is definitely time for outreach.

Does the Outreach option include outreach to nearby neighbors, @PoptartProdigy ?

Wait Burns FOUGHT THEM BEFORE!!
Well yes. The Russians have been trying, in a rather sporadic fashion, to kill Burns ever since the Pacific War. It's why he'd retreated into the central, relatively inaccessible parts of North America. And it's why nobody ELSE like Burns is around and still active with a similarly powerful force- because the Russians methodically obliterated every such remnant unit equipped with operational Old World Equipment and a high standard of performance and training.
 
Burns *is* our most experienced military person.
Well...we don't know who Sister Cali has groomed since the war.
Plus he's notorious to Victoria and no doubt the Russians have had hunterkiller units of Spetnaz trying to headhunt him and his command crew over the years.
Thats what the Sith did to the Jedi in Star wars yeah.
It's not a surprise that he's faced them before.
Indeed.
Well yes. The Russians have been trying, in a rather sporadic fashion, to kill Burns ever since the Pacific War. It's why he'd retreated into the central, relatively inaccessible parts of North America. And it's why nobody ELSE like Burns is around and still active with a similarly powerful force- because the Russians methodically obliterated every such remnant unit equipped with operational Old World Equipment and a high standard of performance and training.
Now I want a Film about Burn's life before we met him...DEAR GOD THAT SOUNDS AWESOME for a SET PIECE!!
 
Speaking of Burns. We really need to get built up enough to start a officer training school and plop Burns into teaching role because he's getting on with the years and we dont know when the stress and his life and age will catch up to him. We need him to pass on his experience pretty badly.
 
...Well, crap.

Most probable explanation, some enterprising bunch of criminals found the poorly guarded or unguarded storage facility and looted it, very possibly sharing the proceeds with whoever happened to be guarding the warehouse. The drones themselves were probably sold for scrap because nobody in the Midwest is showing uch interest in operating a fleet of them, and the culprits are very likely gone because we have no consistent means of tracking or identifying our citizens.

Or worse, they could find their way into the Vicks' hands. Small scale, cheap drones I think could work well within the confines of their doctrine, helping light infantry be aggressive, and playing into the "Air Force is subservient towards the Army, performing recon and selective bombing" ideal. Plus as Lind himself said, in military matters retroculture doesn't count.

@PoptartProdigy, is Blackwell interested or has he ever shown interest in drone warfare to anyone's knowledge?
 
Wait Burns FOUGHT THEM BEFORE!!
A few times. He was never thrilled to; they are as good as the Devils, but their gear is better and they don't have to be as stingy with it.
OK, good reason to take the 'conference' and 'outreach' options and use them seriously. I don't think it's quite time to hold the conference yet but it is definitely time for outreach.

Does the Outreach option include outreach to nearby neighbors, @PoptartProdigy ?
Hm...it focuses more on the big players and true international outreach, but sure, I'd say it at least drops a line to everybody with whom you have regular contact. It's not exactly a massive diplomatic offensive, mind; it's just that trying to simultaneously have effective First Contact with the entire planet is a big undertaking, and you can only spread yourself so far.
Or worse, they could find their way into the Vicks' hands. Small scale, cheap drones I think could work well within the confines of their doctrine, helping light infantry be aggressive, and playing into the "Air Force is subservient towards the Army, performing recon and selective bombing" ideal. Plus as Lind himself said, in military matters retroculture doesn't count.

@PoptartProdigy, is Blackwell interested or has he ever shown interest in drone warfare to anyone's knowledge?
Not to anybody's knowledge. It'd be brave in a very specific and strange way for a Victorian officer to voice that opinion, though.
 
[ ] Little bit of Everything mk.3
-[ ] Military Training Reform
-[ ] Local Conference
-[ ] Peace (Free)
-[ ] Detroit Integration(Free)
-[ ] Toledan Integration(Free)
-[ ] Refugee Crisis
-[ ] Anti-Fascist Politics (Free)
-[ ] Midwest Industrial Conference
-[ ] Reintegrate Audrey's Network
-[ ] 2xOrganize the Libraries(Free)

So, after re reading some of the statements of our advisors about needing/wanting peace, it may be a smart idea to delay ramping up food production a turn and peace out. As that should get us the best peace deal, since the person with all the soldiers/Intel apparatus seems most likely to win the vic civil war. Plus, with local ties we can always just trade for food for a bit if need be. And plus, with libraries and the industrial conference, our food action next turn is much more likly to succeed/have greater results.
 
Hm...it focuses more on the big players and true international outreach, but sure, I'd say it at least drops a line to everybody with whom you have regular contact. It's not exactly a massive diplomatic offensive, mind; it's just that trying to simultaneously have effective First Contact with the entire planet is a big undertaking, and you can only spread yourself so far.
OK, well to be fair, that sounds like the kind of thing that avoids a "stares silently" effect on everyone? So we can do that and don't have to call the conference right away to avoid being the scary violent loner?

It's like, if we immediately call a conference people are going to go there thinking "oh shit this is the part where they declare everyone on Lakes Michigan and Huron and most of the upper Mississippi Valley to be their slaves"

If we have some very basic outreach and just go "hey, 'sup" for a while as if nothing has really changed, I figure that might actually help a little, though not necessarily.
 
I suggest:

Military Training Reform x2. We want to improve training our troops before we recruit more of them.
Local Conference. Flat-out necessary. We need to get our neighbors, if not cordial with us, at least on speaking terms.
Detroit Integration. This is an excellent opportunity for expansion. Or reunification, if you prefer.
Toledan Integration. Ditto. Having an army guarding our eastern border would also be very nice, especially since I'm not going for a formal truce this turn.
Refugee Crisis x2. We need to integrate Detroit and Toledo while the iron is hot, and that means we also need to integrate the people that are already within our borders. Otherwise, we risk causing internal conflicts we really want to avoid.
Farming Equipment. Feeding your citizens (or soon-to-be citizens) is always the top priority. Locking down food security is a great way to ensure stability. A steady supply of food is also a great way to create goodwill from other nations.
Vox Populi. It's a unique opportunity, and integrating Detroit gives us a reduced DC.
Organize the Libraries. It's not glamorous, but we've got the AP and it is definitely a useful project.

So that comes to:
[] Military Training Reform (Defense AP)
[] Military Training Reform x2 (Free AP)
[] Local Conference (State AP)
[] Detroit Integration (Free AP)
[] Toledo Integration (Free AP)
[] Refugee Crisis (Domestic AP)
[] Refugee Crisis x2 (Free AP)
[] Farming Equipment (Development AP)
[] Farming Equipment (Free AP)
[] Vox Populi (Security AP)
[] Organize the Libraries (Tech AP)

Thoughts?
 
What would be a more conventional argument for drones in the lens of 4th generational warfare then?
I don't really think the issue with Victoria and drones is that drones of the sort you're talking about (where they act as an extension of an infantryman for scouting/sabotage) are against 4th gen tenets. The bigger issue is that Victoria has spent 40 odd years mainlining retroculture, so very few Victorians would even think of bitty flying things of plastic with a camera/payload as a thing at all, let alone think of them as cheap/disposable enough to mass produce.

If somebody (probably with a very strong russian accent) sat down with Blackwell and fully explained the use of drones in scouting/spotting he'd probably be fine with at least limited use, but right now Blackwell thinking about getting more tanks/planes/artillery the way an inter-war period general would be (with better tech of course, but the general sense of just boosting overall mechanization) rather than toys that came about 60-70 years later.

Right now, Victorian officers speaking up would be revealing some sort of secret fascination with the sort of things Cultural Marxists make (the only explanation where they got their knowledge of drone warfare from) by doing so and that really isn't going to fly.
 
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What would be a more conventional argument for drones in the lens of 4th generational warfare then?
Er...probably something snide about how they don't even need to waste warm bodies on the air force anymore?
OK, well to be fair, that sounds like the kind of thing that avoids a "stares silently" effect on everyone? So we can do that and don't have to call the conference right away to avoid being the scary violent loner?

It's like, if we immediately call a conference people are going to go there thinking "oh shit this is the part where they declare everyone on Lakes Michigan and Huron and most of the upper Mississippi Valley to be their slaves"

If we have some very basic outreach and just go "hey, 'sup" for a while as if nothing has really changed, I figure that might actually help a little, though not necessarily.
It avoids the, "staring silently," effect, yes.
Oh nice! 5/5 hardened killers with infinite uses of old world equipment 2: new world boogaloo! That's terrifying!
Happy to help. :evil:
 
I suggest:

Military Training Reform x2. We want to improve training our troops before we recruit more of them.
Local Conference. Flat-out necessary. We need to get our neighbors, if not cordial with us, at least on speaking terms.
Detroit Integration. This is an excellent opportunity for expansion. Or reunification, if you prefer.
Toledan Integration. Ditto. Having an army guarding our eastern border would also be very nice, especially since I'm not going for a formal truce this turn.
Refugee Crisis x2. We need to integrate Detroit and Toledo while the iron is hot, and that means we also need to integrate the people that are already within our borders. Otherwise, we risk causing internal conflicts we really want to avoid.
Farming Equipment. Feeding your citizens (or soon-to-be citizens) is always the top priority. Locking down food security is a great way to ensure stability. A steady supply of food is also a great way to create goodwill from other nations.
Vox Populi. It's a unique opportunity, and integrating Detroit gives us a reduced DC.
Organize the Libraries. It's not glamorous, but we've got the AP and it is definitely a useful project.

So that comes to:
[] Military Training Reform (Defense AP)
[] Military Training Reform x2 (Free AP)
[] Local Conference (State AP)
[] Detroit Integration (Free AP)
[] Toledo Integration (Free AP)
[] Refugee Crisis (Domestic AP)
[] Refugee Crisis x2 (Free AP)
[] Farming Equipment (Development AP)
[] Farming Equipment (Free AP)
[] Vox Populi (Security AP)
[] Organize the Libraries (Tech AP)

Thoughts?
Anti-fascist action is pretty important. We have to remember that enemies internal and external have their own actions. If we leave the fascists alone they *will* recover and the longer we leave them be the more actions they have to screw us over or reentrench themselves. Better to strike while the iron is hot and we've shattered the Victorian aura of invincibility and the justification of the fascists pointing to Victorian 'successes'.

The sooner we can put another malus behind us the better it'll be.
 
Anti-fascist action is pretty important. We have to remember that enemies internal and external have their own actions. If we leave the fascists alone they *will* recover and the longer we leave them be the more actions they have to screw us over or reentrench themselves. Better to strike while the iron is hot and we've shattered the Victorian aura of invincibility and the justification of the fascists pointing to Victorian 'successes'.

The sooner we can put another malus behind us the better it'll be.
I agree that we need to quash the fascists as soon as we can, but the diplomatic situation and refugee crisis are just more important right now. I think we should leave them for next turn. Leaving them alone for even one turn isn't great and we may suffer for it, but there's not a whole lot they can actually do in that time. The Unionists have been disgraced as a political party, and their main foreign backer is in the middle of a civil war.
 
I agree that we need to quash the fascists as soon as we can, but the diplomatic situation and refugee crisis are just more important right now.
I think that spending one action now on it while it's easy is worth it.

We'll realistically need more than six months to resolve the combined diplomatic/refugee crises, so we need to settle OTHER issues now while we can do so easily, to avoid having them affecting us later while we're still dealing with bigger, more protracted problems.

We're going to end up spending, oh... 5-8 actions in the next 2-3 turns on various diplomatic and political things anyway. We can't do it all at once or all right away. So we might as well spend an action now to make sure at least one of our problems is over, put firmly to bed, and unlikely to recur.
 
I agree that we need to quash the fascists as soon as we can, but the diplomatic situation and refugee crisis are just more important right now. I think we should leave them for next turn. Leaving them alone for even one turn isn't great and we may suffer for it, but there's not a whole lot they can actually do in that time. The Unionists have been disgraced as a political party, and their main foreign backer is in the middle of a civil war.
Remember the example of how Burns turning inwards allowed the Vics to steal a march on Great Lakes diplomacy?

That is a strong argument for taking as many different actions as possible this turn, and spreading them out over multiple sections instead of focusing down on one action. Specifically for further marginalizing the cryptofash faction, assimilating new states specifically tilts things even further against the Unionists who were agitating against their getting rights in the first place. At least in the shortterm.

Aim for synergistic effects that compound on each other.
 
Remember the example of how Burns turning inwards allowed the Vics to steal a march on Great Lakes diplomacy?

That is a strong argument for taking as many different actions as possible this turn, and spreading them out over multiple sections instead of focusing down on one action. Specifically for further marginalizing the cryptofash faction, assimilating new states specifically tilts things even further against the Unionists who were agitating against their getting rights in the first place. At least in the shortterm.

Aim for synergistic effects that compound on each other.
I think that works better in diplomacy and politics (where being present and actively engaging rivals counts for a lot).

In industry and warfare, concentration of effort seems a better strategy on the whole, subject mainly to the constraint of not wanting 'overkill' actions unless we're confident they'll pay off about as much as actions spent on a different project would have.
 
I think that spending one action now on it while it's easy is worth it.

We'll realistically need more than six months to resolve the combined diplomatic/refugee crises, so we need to settle OTHER issues now while we can do so easily, to avoid having them affecting us later while we're still dealing with bigger, more protracted problems.

We're going to end up spending, oh... 5-8 actions in the next 2-3 turns on various diplomatic and political things anyway. We can't do it all at once or all right away. So we might as well spend an action now to make sure at least one of our problems is over, put firmly to bed, and unlikely to recur.
I just don't think it's going to become that much more difficult next turn. I mean, it's definitely not ideal, but I didn't want to strip AP away from any of the other options, especially all of them are time-sensitive too. I'm trying to finish a lot of actions in a signle turn, and unfortunately I just couldn't justify leaving any of them incomplete, because that just means we'd be tying up AP next turn.
 
I just don't think it's going to become that much more difficult next turn. I mean, it's definitely not ideal, but I didn't want to strip AP away from any of the other options, especially all of them are time-sensitive too. I'm trying to finish a lot of actions in a signle turn, and unfortunately I just couldn't justify leaving any of them incomplete, because that just means we'd be tying up AP next turn.

Do bear in mind that as Poptart recently noted, partial completion of an action can fend off negative time-sensitive effects.
 
Do bear in mind that as Poptart recently noted, partial completion of an action can fend off negative time-sensitive effects.
Yes, and I've often advocated for using a more shotgun approach with our planning precsiely because of that. But in this case, I feel like it's more advantageous to try and finish specific projects to get immediately useful benefits.
 
We're going to end up spending, oh... 5-8 actions in the next 2-3 turns on various diplomatic and political things anyway. We can't do it all at once or all right away. So we might as well spend an action now to make sure at least one of our problems is over, put firmly to bed, and unlikely to recur.

I think that it's unrealistic to expect fascists to never rise up again domestically, considering how they have survived in OTL as well as the action's description:

Crush this iteration of fascists. They'll be back eventually -- they always are -- but for now, they'll be done with.

I think it's the right action to take right now, and this will have a lasting impact on our political environment, but we would be kidding ourselves if we think that this issue will never haunt us again, even after Victoria is gone.
 
So obviously we need the libraries, partly because just having that old-world knowledge available makes things much easier, and partially because I've always kind of intended for my viewpoint character (who I keep intending to write omakes about) to be Secretary of Education and this just makes that position a little closer to being an actual worthwhile thing.

Otherwise, yeah we need to stomp out the Unionist fire now, get Detroit and Toledo involved, and maybe stop the neighbours from staring at us like that before we do anything more ambitious.
 
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