Remove ads

Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

Voting is open
Reader mode
PoptartProdigy said:
Nah, lean into it. Remember, the actual forces the Vicks were using were mercenary forces. The actual Victorian troops — CMC, one and all — were raping and pillaging the unthreatened occupation zones like murdering cowards undertaking the noble work of deprogramming the depraved Azanian regime's victims and punishing the true believers.

And those mercenaries could obviously never be relied upon to execute the true glory and vision of Rumford's doctrine!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So. Price will be one (1) bonus, with variable extra rewards depending on quality, as previously arranged?
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'm not as optimistic about our ability to stop supplies from being flown in as you are.

Remember that when the Victorians launched their big air attack on us when we were holding the Raisin Line, we had to wait and sucker them in. This suggests that we couldn't simply pot their planes with missiles while we were on the Raisin Line and they were flying low over Toledo. Presumably we didn't have the range to do that. If we didn't have it then, then we won't have it a week or three from now when we're occupying the same positions.

And sure, supplies dropped off at Toledo Airport will have a difficult, unpleasant journey to get to frontline troops on the south bank of the Raisin, but it's not impossibly far, just difficult. We can throttle back the rate at which those supplies reach the front, but we can't stop it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

To add to this, the supplies could include their own transportation. Major cargo planes hauling all-terrain vehicles, that can drive the supplies through the difficult areas. Remember, Russia doesn't need to interfere enough to let Victoria win to make this painful for us. Just keep our army tied down and we could be down 4 ap for two turns. They could also prop up the Victorian state, allowing them to deploy another CMC division, this time with Russian supplied equipment.

Honestly, I'm also worried about our border states. We only barely managed to keep them from causing trouble before with Defender or the Midwest. With Russia joining Victoria in active efforts against us, and with the amount of money they can throw around for bribes foreign-aid, states may be very willing to cause trouble. The trouble they wouldn't dream of causing if we can reasonably claim to have defeated Victoria and have our army back home.

Vote to remove an active enemy army.
Vote to give our soldier's assault training
Vote to keep the Toldeo airport traffic-free

Vote Limited Assault 2075
 
PoptartProdigy said:
You did not have to sucker them in, it's just that Franks was feeling vengeful and bloodthirsty and wanted them at point-blank range before they realized that they really needed to run. And she managed to convince Burns that doing so was worthwhile.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Uhh... let me clarify what I was getting at and ask you a direct question to avoid any possibility of misunderstanding.

I am aware that, following General Franks' advice, General Burns allowed the Victorian jets to get much closer to Commonwealth troop positions than was strictly necessary, and that our surface to air missile batteries, firing from positions north of the Raisin River, could have engaged the Victorian jets at considerably longer ranges than they did in the aforesaid engagement.

However, what I was specifically considering was a different question:

Are our SAM batteries so long ranged that they can hit targets at the airports near Toledo, the ones that Russian or not!Russian supply transports might fly in and out of, from positions north of the Raisin?

...

Now, this is not out of the question. The distance from the Raisin River itself to Toledo Express Airport itself is something like 20-30 miles, and the SAM batteries, while probably located out of mortar range of the river and thus a few miles farther back, may not have been many miles further back. The range of a first-generation heavy surface to air missile, even a crude one like Chicago can plausibly make from home using "garbage birb" manufacturing techniques, can be quite long. It all depends on just how big and heavy it is, can be quite great indeed. The SA-2, a Soviet system the US got a lot of unhappy experience with in Vietnam, for instance, does have a 28-mile maximum range if Wikipedia is to be believed. And heavier, longer-range SAMs did get built, too.

The other sizeable airport I can find from a quick examination of the situation around Toledo is Erie-Ottawa International, which is some distance east of the city and quite close to the coast- it would actually be well within naval gunfire range, though the shallowness of the lake and Victorian positions on the nearby islands would be an issue. Plus also I'm not sure the runways are long enough to support heavy transport planes or F-16s anyway.

There may be other airports farther back and inland, I'm a bit short of time to continue my Googling, but the Victorians themselves can't be operating that far inland, and there are only going to be so many candidates.

...

Basically, my question is the bolded one. I'm a bit uncertain as to whether or not we can actually do that.

...

If we CAN do that, our chances of stopping supply flights into the Victorian-held pocket during a siege improve, but by the same token the temptation for the Russians to escalate by 'lending' Victoria a squadron or two of modern jets to do airstrikes from out of Buffalo and blow up our SAM sites increases.

If we CAN'T do that, then the good news is we're less likely to eat airstrikes, but the bad news is that the enemy has probable access to a supply line we can't cut.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Needle and Hammer (No OWE)
-[X] Defend with all committable forces. Bring up all of your troops and all of the Detroit Militia. You don't just want to win this one; you want to utterly smash this assault and enjoy numerical superiority for a change. Afterwards, you can wipe them out easily. With this force, you won't even hypothetically need the Big Red One. Estimated two days to total force destruction. The BRO will not in any case be needed.
-[x] Limited assault. Don't try to smash them outright, but you cannot countenance just letting them be. Begin launching probing attacks across a wide area. Force them to spread their forces and strain their logistics. Wear down their supplies and weaken them for the final clash. Does not use a charge of OWE. Certainty of limited casualties. Possibility of moderate casualties. Five days to prepare and begin offensive operations. Slower resolution, likely several weeks.
-[X] Capture the freighters if it appears possible to disable them without a threat to the overall safety of the fleet. Sink them if they put up too much of a fight to allow that, or if there is reason to think they are rigged as suicide bombs.
-[X] Full bombardment. The Navy will commit to intense shore bombardment of Victorian positions, trying to destroy as many troops and materiel as they possibly can to burn through the Victorians supplies and manpower.

[X] Plan Needle and Hammer
-[X] Defend with all committable forces.
-[X] Ongoing harassment and probing attacks to force the Victorians to exhaust their supplies, followed by a decisive attack supported by Old World Equipment after they are deemed to be sufficiently weakened.
-[X] Capture the freighters if it appears possible to disable them without a threat to the overall safety of the fleet. Sink them if they put up too much of a fight to allow that, or if there is reason to think they are rigged as suicide bombs.
-[X] Full bombardment. The Navy will commit to intense shore bombardment of Victorian positions, trying to destroy as many troops and materiel as they possibly can to burn through the Victorians supplies and manpower.
Adhoc vote count started by huhYeahGoodPoint on Aug 4, 2019 at 12:22 PM, finished with 114 posts and 41 votes.
  • [X] Plan: Maneuver Out of This!
    -[X] Defend with all committable forces. Bring up all of your troops and all of the Detroit Militia. You don't just want to win this one; you want to utterly smash this assault and enjoy numerical superiority for a change. Afterwards, you can wipe them out easily. With this force, you won't even hypothetically need the Big Red One. Estimated two days to total force destruction. The BRO will not in any case be needed.
    -[X] Siege. Victorians do not get glorious last stands against you. They get run down like foxes before your tanks. They get picked apart from extreme range, useless prayers on their lips. This force will die the slow death of starvation and dwindling supplies. Only once they have lost any ability to present a threat to your forces will you close the noose on them. Does not use a charge of OWE. Possibility of light casualties. Possibility that the Victorians' nerve breaks and they resume their offensive. One week to prepare and begin offensive operations. Resolution will likely take a long time, possibly multiple months.
    -[X] Capture them. Hey, if Victoria doesn't want the tonnage, you can see some use in them.
    -[X] Full bombardment. The Navy will commit to intense shore bombardment of Victorian positions, trying to destroy as many troops and materiel as they possibly can to burn through the Victorians supplies and manpower.
    [x] Plan Rockeye is uncreative about names
    -[x] Defend with available forces. They simply cannot force the Huron with worse than two-to-one odds. Commit the Big Red One if somebody really fucks up, but otherwise just let them batter themselves to death. Head out and finish them once they're incapable of resisting you. Estimated three days to total force destruction. Uses a charge of OWE in the unlikely event that the BRO needs to step in.
    -[x] Limited assault. Don't try to smash them outright, but you cannot countenance just letting them be. Begin launching probing attacks across a wide area. Force them to spread their forces and strain their logistics. Wear down their supplies and weaken them for the final clash. Does not use a charge of OWE. Certainty of limited casualties. Possibility of moderate casualties. Five days to prepare and begin offensive operations. Slower resolution, likely several weeks.
    -[x] Scouting missions. Whatever you do on land, you'll need accurate and up-to-date information to do it. With control of the sea, you might even be able to force naval landings behind the River Raisin and circumvent Victoria's main defensive barrier.
    -[X] Capture them. Hey, if Victoria doesn't want the tonnage, you can see some use in them.
    [X] Plan Needle and Hammer
    -[X] Defend with all committable forces.
    -[X] Ongoing harassment and probing attacks to force the Victorians to exhaust their supplies, followed by a decisive attack supported by Old World Equipment after they are deemed to be sufficiently weakened.
    -[X] Capture the freighters if it appears possible to disable them without a threat to the overall safety of the fleet. Sink them if they put up too much of a fight to allow that, or if there is reason to think they are rigged as suicide bombs.
    -[X] Full bombardment. The Navy will commit to intense shore bombardment of Victorian positions, trying to destroy as many troops and materiel as they possibly can to burn through the Victorians supplies and manpower.
    [X] Plan Needle and Hammer (No OWE)
    -[X] Defend with all committable forces. Bring up all of your troops and all of the Detroit Militia. You don't just want to win this one; you want to utterly smash this assault and enjoy numerical superiority for a change. Afterwards, you can wipe them out easily. With this force, you won't even hypothetically need the Big Red One. Estimated two days to total force destruction. The BRO will not in any case be needed.
    -[x] Limited assault. Don't try to smash them outright, but you cannot countenance just letting them be. Begin launching probing attacks across a wide area. Force them to spread their forces and strain their logistics. Wear down their supplies and weaken them for the final clash. Does not use a charge of OWE. Certainty of limited casualties. Possibility of moderate casualties. Five days to prepare and begin offensive operations. Slower resolution, likely several weeks.
    -[X] Capture the freighters if it appears possible to disable them without a threat to the overall safety of the fleet. Sink them if they put up too much of a fight to allow that, or if there is reason to think they are rigged as suicide bombs.
    -[X] Full bombardment. The Navy will commit to intense shore bombardment of Victorian positions, trying to destroy as many troops and materiel as they possibly can to burn through the Victorians supplies and manpower.
    [X] Plan Uranus
    -[x][DEFENSE] Defend with all committable forces.
    -[x][OFFENSE] Limited assault.
    -[x][TRANSPORTS] Capture them. Hey, if Victoria doesn't want the tonnage, you can see some use in them.
    -[x][NAVY] Full bombardment.
    [X] Plan: Maneuver Out of This! (BUT WITH BLOCKADE)
    -[X] Defend with all committable forces. Bring up all of your troops and all of the Detroit Militia. You don't just want to win this one; you want to utterly smash this assault and enjoy numerical superiority for a change. Afterwards, you can wipe them out easily. With this force, you won't even hypothetically need the Big Red One. Estimated two days to total force destruction. The BRO will not in any case be needed.
    -[X] Siege. Victorians do not get glorious last stands against you. They get run down like foxes before your tanks. They get picked apart from extreme range, useless prayers on their lips. This force will die the slow death of starvation and dwindling supplies. Only once they have lost any ability to present a threat to your forces will you close the noose on them. Does not use a charge of OWE. Possibility of light casualties. Possibility that the Victorians' nerve breaks and they resume their offensive. One week to prepare and begin offensive operations. Resolution will likely take a long time, possibly multiple months.
    -[X] Capture them. Hey, if Victoria doesn't want the tonnage, you can see some use in them.
    -[X] Blockade. All of this could be undone if Victoria manages to slip transport ships to its cut-off forces. Ensure that that cannot happen.
    [X] Plan Needle and Hammer (No OWE)
    [X] Plan Uranus
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
uju32 said:
Russian trained and origin. Victorian-flagged, with dual citizenship.
Victoria claims them as special forces teams. Perfectly legal.
We treat them like any other POW as long as they have committed no warcrimes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Only if Victoria claims them. We don't execute prisoners of war. But we also want to discourage randos on either side from wandering around and doing shit without the official support of whatever state they are in.
 
bdun140 said:
The reason the Negaverse hasn't reconvened yet is also the reason neither of my Negaverse posts actually covered the events of the war turns. I, quite frankly, do not feel up to the task of writing something on the same level as @huhYeahGoodPoint 's A Violent Wind, at least not in a manner that manages to intentionally paper over the fact that the players are making horrible decisions, while at the same time giving enough foreshadowing that the consequences of said actions aren't just coming out of nowhere. Giving just enough hints that things might not go well that the players can't rightly say they've been screwed over by GM fiat, while simultaneously having it be entirely believable that they would IGNORE said hints and then subsequently say they've been screwed over by GM fiat.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Don't sell yourself short. The admiral section from this post is still my favorite negaverse post. Portraying him as the only sane man in the Commonwealth and a worthy foe archtype makes it feel more like a story from the other side.

bdun140 said:
Your Department of State believes that, with the situation as it stands, had you not given foreign reporters and observers the go-ahead on watching the action, Russia would already be flying over massive cargo planes with Russian flags on the wings to ensure that the last-standers have an untouchable supply pipeline. It's cheap, it's almost risk-free from Russia's perspective, and it's a colossal pain in your ass. Low-investment, high-reward. This would be pretty risk-free, because without the foreigners, all the outside world has to go on is satellite footage and Barack Williams's broadcasts. The footage shows that you've been wreaking havoc, but nobody is going to stand up to Alexander on the basis of that little context. As for Williams, he's been persistently suspicious of the Commonwealth, and while his more defeatist statements have been censored out, he hasn't given a terribly shiny view of the conflict. Few would challenge Russia with context like that for your sake.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

(Williams) "Defeatist?" Now I feel that's a might harsh. I will grant I try to see all the possibilities, but personally, I like to think that by doing so I make it so people know it's true. Truth's a hard currency to find these days, ain't no one trust Victoria, cause you know what they're gonna say. Same thing for most states. But with me, well I like to look at it all. So when I say the Northern force is destroyed, people who it means it's destroyed. When I offer speculation that maybe the Commonwealth naval raid might not have been as successful as portrayed, they know it's nothing but the truth when I say no ships were lost. When I say the CMC was destroyed like our militia at a training exercise, people know it's true. I'd like to think I'm one of the Commonwealth's best friends, by giving them my reporting.
 
clockworkchaos said:
Don't sell yourself short. The admiral section from this post is still my favorite negaverse post. Portraying him as the only sane man in the Commonwealth and a worthy foe archtype makes it feel more like a story from the other side.



(Williams) "Defeatist?" Now I feel that's a might harsh. I will grant I try to see all the possibilities, but personally, I like to think that by doing so I make it so people know it's true. Truth's a hard currency to find these days, ain't no one trust Victoria, cause you know what they're gonna say. Same thing for most states. But with me, well I like to look at it all. So when I say the Northern force is destroyed, people who it means it's destroyed. When I offer speculation that maybe the Commonwealth naval raid might not have been as successful as portrayed, they know it's nothing but the truth when I say no ships were lost. When I say the CMC was destroyed like our militia at a training exercise, people know it's true. I'd like to think I'm one of the Commonwealth's best friends, by giving them my reporting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Dunno, I really liked the monologue when I first wrote it, but looking back having the destruction of the Victorian Navy and the cutting off of the Leamington Force from supplies take center stage feels out of character, considering both of these things would be viewed by Vick-Posters as mild inconveniences at most.

Also, your second quote appears to be a bit borked there.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Needle and Hammer (No OWE)

Siege + Bombardment remains viable provided Russia sticks to just propping Victoria as a whole up (plausible but not guaranteed), but I said I was willing to vote for plans like the above that did not include use of OWE before I went to bed and I'm sticking to that.
 
Can the Victorians even afford to rely on resupply out of Toledo? They have minimal to no local support by now, are obviously losing one way or another, no dedicated logistics organization and have already pulled out their garrison to join the stand at Raisin. Keeping a supply line to Toledo of all things while constantly under fire and probing attacks is easier said than done when the natives would love to vanish a truck or two full of supplies and know one way or another the Victorians won't really be in a position to retaliate.

At the very least you are dedicating a not insubstantial amount of men to try and get these supplies to Raisin, and absolutely none of them are qualified.
 
Karugus said:
Can the Victorians even afford to rely on resupply out of Toledo? They have minimal to no local support by now, are obviously losing one way or another, no dedicated logistics organization and have already pulled out their garrison to join the stand at Raisin. Keeping a supply line to Toledo of all things while constantly under fire and probing attacks is easier said than done when the natives would love to vanish a truck or two full of supplies and know one way or another the Victorians won't really be in a position to retaliate.

At the very least you are dedicating a not insubstantial amount of men to try and get these supplies to Raisin, and absolutely none of them are qualified.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Translation:

"Roll a die to see if the Victorian supply penalty is -1, -2, or -4."
 
Karugus said:
Can the Victorians even afford to rely on resupply out of Toledo? They have minimal to no local support by now, are obviously losing one way or another, no dedicated logistics organization and have already pulled out their garrison to join the stand at Raisin. Keeping a supply line to Toledo of all things while constantly under fire and probing attacks is easier said than done when the natives would love to vanish a truck or two full of supplies and know one way or another the Victorians won't really be in a position to retaliate.

At the very least you are dedicating a not insubstantial amount of men to try and get these supplies to Raisin, and absolutely none of them are qualified.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, we have no way of actually knowing what's going on in Toledo right now. Their militia could be on the verge of taking their guns and shooting every Victorian still within reach. They could be, if not supportive of the Victorians, more hostile/concerned about Detroit and its new Commonwealth ally and what will happen to them if their longstanding rival wins so decisively, and so willing to not interfere.

For all we know, the Victorians might have purged Toledo's military/militia beforehand to do away with the risk of them pulling shit (though I find this bit unlikely.)

Of course, if it's Victorian aircraft with a fresh coat of paint that were Russian a couple days ago doing the dropping, there might be PMCs or 'volunteers' in charge of escorting the supplies. Or their supply lines could indeed be Fucked because it's noted that the infrastructure between Monroe and Toledo has been deliberately trashed, and there could be hundreds or thousands of very angry militiamen looking to settle a grudge.

But if we do commit to a siege, it's best to make sure we at least have a plan for stopping or sabotaging any theoretical resupply from Toledo, since if they can get it through, it'll make properly sieging them down a lot more difficult. The Victorians were willing to try for a resupply on Leamington by taking 0/5 Militia, bankrupting one of their cities to get said supplies, and having them take the land route there.
 
Last edited:
Stop: Here's how it is
  • Staff Post
    • here's how it is

    So, thanks @Strypgia for removing Lailoken. He gets 25 points for disrupting the thread with caustic sarcasm and violating Rule 4: Don't Be Disruptive.

    Mopman43 said:
    I don't think the smallpox samples survived detonation.

    Given your previous infractions, I hope you weren't suggesting using them.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    A person's infraction history is not to be used to personally attack them @Mopman43 or to imply that they have Rule 2 violating ideas. It violates the idea of playing the ball and not the man and thus violates Rule 3: Be Civil. Take 25 points and a three day threadban.

    Argidoll said:
    If you feel need to say thing swithout regard for how people interpret your sloppy presentation of wording, sure, whatever. Just remember that regardless of how right you are in technicality, not many will want to listen to you if you're a smarmy prick about it, and no one will defend you should your refusal to use context and wording properly come back to bite you.

    Your actual point, about securing bioweapons and all that? Sure, that's fine. And it's your right to be a snarmy, childish little shit about how you say it, snorting into your upper lip about how superior you are when people misinterpret your likely deliberately baity wording. But it's also everyone else's right to call you out on your shit, or kick you out, or drop to your elevel and pretend that the above insult "was just an example, so you have no right to get upset about it", or the like.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    It is indeed accepted to point out someone's mistakes and when they're wrong. But it is not okay to drop to their level and do things like say "it was just an example, you have no right to be upset" because that is not helpful to the smooth running of a thread. Take a staff notice for Rule 3 to not go further in that direction.

    As for everybody else, something I find helpful for playing the ball and not the man is considering both my posts and other people's posts. Take a minute, a breath, whatever and divorce whatever point their making from the speaker so you can evaluate and respond to their point. I would suggest trying this more, since we're all basically on this forum to entertain and inform ourselves.

    I hope everyone has a good day!
     
  • Staff Post
    • Thank you both, @Strypgia and @BungieONI, for your time.
    Simon_Jester said:
    Uhh... let me clarify what I was getting at and ask you a direct question to avoid any possibility of misunderstanding.

    I am aware that, following General Franks' advice, General Burns allowed the Victorian jets to get much closer to Commonwealth troop positions than was strictly necessary, and that our surface to air missile batteries, firing from positions north of the Raisin River, could have engaged the Victorian jets at considerably longer ranges than they did in the aforesaid engagement.

    However, what I was specifically considering was a different question:

    Are our SAM batteries so long ranged that they can hit targets at the airports near Toledo, the ones that Russian or not!Russian supply transports might fly in and out of, from positions north of the Raisin?

    ...

    Now, this is not out of the question. The distance from the Raisin River itself to Toledo Express Airport itself is something like 20-30 miles, and the SAM batteries, while probably located out of mortar range of the river and thus a few miles farther back, may not have been many miles further back. The range of a first-generation heavy surface to air missile, even a crude one like Chicago can plausibly make from home using "garbage birb" manufacturing techniques, can be quite long. It all depends on just how big and heavy it is, can be quite great indeed. The SA-2, a Soviet system the US got a lot of unhappy experience with in Vietnam, for instance, does have a 28-mile maximum range if Wikipedia is to be believed. And heavier, longer-range SAMs did get built, too.

    The other sizeable airport I can find from a quick examination of the situation around Toledo is Erie-Ottawa International, which is some distance east of the city and quite close to the coast- it would actually be well within naval gunfire range, though the shallowness of the lake and Victorian positions on the nearby islands would be an issue. Plus also I'm not sure the runways are long enough to support heavy transport planes or F-16s anyway.

    There may be other airports farther back and inland, I'm a bit short of time to continue my Googling, but the Victorians themselves can't be operating that far inland, and there are only going to be so many candidates.

    ...

    Basically, my question is the bolded one. I'm a bit uncertain as to whether or not we can actually do that.

    ...

    If we CAN do that, our chances of stopping supply flights into the Victorian-held pocket during a siege improve, but by the same token the temptation for the Russians to escalate by 'lending' Victoria a squadron or two of modern jets to do airstrikes from out of Buffalo and blow up our SAM sites increases.

    If we CAN'T do that, then the good news is we're less likely to eat airstrikes, but the bad news is that the enemy has probable access to a supply line we can't cut.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Hm...I've been using 60s-70s as my benchmark for what your forces can make. The Almaz S-200, in service from 1967 and actually designed in the '50s, is listed as firing missiles with a range of at least 150 km. While kilometers are puny compared to miles, that is considerably more than 30 miles. That said, I don't want to say that you necessarily have missiles as good as Soviet missiles, since they specialized in such things. The S-200 was also explicitly a high-value target defense asset and presumably was not indicative of the typical achievements of the era. Even though it was designed at least twenty years prior to my cutoff date.

    So l will say that your SAM system launches missiles with half the effective range of a bottom-line S-200 missile. 45 miles. Unless people tell me that that is so short as to be utterly worthless. I don't know much about SAM systems, as the above train of thought likely reveals.
    Flectarn said:
    Well, not actually Augusta cause it doesn't have a serious airport, it'd have to be Portland, Bangor or Brunswick NAS.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    For some reason Augusta was made capital of Victoria, so by now, at least, it has a seriousface airport.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Voting is open
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top