Voting is open
You know, there is something I've been curious:

Where are the mentions of disease in wartime?

Wars are famous for spreading disease because you have a lot of people with open wounds near each other; this should be especially true when it's wet and pouring and generally almost the best possible conditions for disease to flourish.

So. Where is it, and when's the hammer going to fall?

Well, we did take Widespread Vaccinations as a customization option, and our troops (for the reasons you outline) would probably be top priority for receiving those. So that's probably helping at least somewhat in preventing outright plagues.
 
You know, there is something I've been curious:

Where are the mentions of disease in wartime?
Wars are famous for spreading disease because you have a lot of people with open wounds near each other; this should be especially true when it's wet and pouring and generally almost the best possible conditions for disease to flourish.

So. Where is it, and when's the hammer going to fall?
Hasn't been long enough.

Even the Victorians know the value of health regulations and sanitary conditions from decades of campaigning amd presumably Russian exasperation, and their army haven't been choked of supplies long enough for it to bite into readiness levels. Nobody's drinking untreated water, or some such.

The Commonwealth had a specific health focus in it's founding, so they're good.
 
No, he said dam and he meant dam. I'll call it tidal power stations, though.

No they didn't, because that is too bullshit to believe. It also comes from the part of the book where Victoria turns into a best-of-every-possible-world utopia and I cannot even slightly justify it as warped truth, so I'm writing it off as utter bullshit. They have Russian-owned nuclear power stations. They are not cold fusion.

It is joined by nuclear plants, but yes, they do have a thing in the Bay of Fundy, although it's a network of tidal power stations and not a single, monolithic, dam. Still generates a huge amount of power -- the tides are stupidly powerful, once somebody actually puts in the insane cost of harnessing them.

In this quest, the Fundy, "Dam," was a tidal power station initiative pitched by Rumford and sold to Kraft. It was insanely ambitious and realistically needed way too fucking much time, but it went through and China was more than happy to gain immense economic leverage over the East Coast as well as the West. Chinese corporations were selected to build the structures, and work began. Kraft and Rumford saw this as an innovative and sufficiently retroculture (HAH) way of solving their power issues, and also of stiffing China with a massive bill for the piddling return of, "influence," which of course can be cut off at any time for no consequences. o_O

At this point, Alexander caught wind of his puppet -- to all appearances -- trying to trade him for another master. Now that I reread my own timeline, I recall that Kraft didn't stiff the Chinese the bill -- he simply went into the Cascadian crisis breezily certain that it would result in China's total collapse, allowing Russia to pick up the pieces. Because fate loved him back then, this actually happened. Alexander backed himself down from a coronary, vowed that this whole mess had given him one more reason to murder everybody in the Northern Confederation's government once they were of no further use, and had his corporations pick up the pieces of the, "Dam," megaproject, since the Chinese had already shouldered so much of the cost that he might as fucking well.

The, "Dam," in the modern day, is a group of tidal power stations built at immense expense by Chinese and Russian corporations -- most of that cost being assumed by the Chinese in the opening stages of what was (canonically, even) a decades-long construction initiative. It does provide an immense amount of power for Victoria, and also means that they have absolutely no way of ever escaping Russian control, ever. The rest of their power is handled by the same Russian corporation that owns the dam, a grid of nuclear power plants repurposing old American installations and built on the proceeds of the killing they make with the Fundy Network.

One more way in which Victoria, ass-backwards as it is, turns a profit for Alexander.

GET THIS MAN A COMMISSION! :rofl:
Huh, why would you write a post which just consists of the words "High Value Target!" over and over again?



Well from my point of view, it's just a soft target you're keeping way, WAY back to avoid letting it get damaged. There's a big difference between a "hard target" in the sense of "this target will be hard to kill even if you shoot at it" and in the sense of "this will be absurdly easy to kill if you ever, ever get within range, and it's visible from several hundred miles away."

In any event, airborne lasers are better for boost-phase and mid-course missile defense than terminal intercept anyway; there's a reason why the focus for terminal intercept has mostly been on missiles.

Going through Pennsylvania puts us close to Victoria, literally right on their doorstep.

Going through the Mississippi puts us less close to Texas, which may or may not still contain a weaker version of Victoria. Like, we don't actually know what the internal politics of Texas is like very well, not in-character. We certainly don't know if they're as organized and hostile to other revivalist states as Victoria is.

While I get your argument that being so much closer to us makes Pennsylvania safer, I think this is very very situational and will depend on us learning the specific actual facts on the ground around the mouth of the Mississippi. Among other things, Miami may be a potential ally in keeping any malevolent Texans under control, whereas New York is poorly placed to help us with our Pennsylvania Problem.

Also, trying to push through Ohio and Pennsylvania will entail courting a war with Victoria at a point in time when they have ready access to the outside world commercially and we don't. At least not yet, because this is supposed to be our commercial route to Outside. That could backfire if they roll well on their "foreign sourced equipment" checks.

Meh, make it big enough, give it powerful enough engines/generators, and line its skin with microwave AESA. It would basically be a death star which could detect and melt anything in any direction from a hundred miles away. Directed energy weapons don't have to be lasers. Modern AEGIS cruisers already arguably qualify.
 
Well, if my dad made it to the opening phases of the Northern Confederacy's formation, there's a chance he made good on the promise he made once while he and I were watching the 2016 presidential debates: That if there were ever tyranny, true tyranny in this nation, he would be manning the barricades to oppose it. Rochester stands for freedom!
 
Meh, make it big enough, give it powerful enough engines/generators, and line its skin with microwave AESA. It would basically be a death star which could detect and melt anything in any direction from a hundred miles away. Directed energy weapons don't have to be lasers. Modern AEGIS cruisers already arguably qualify.
The problem then becomes "what happens if someone else with a thicker-skinned aircraft pots it with their own airborne laser from 500 miles away?"

When everyone has airborne lasers and they become ubiquitous, putting them on fragile platforms stops seeming so straightforward a good plan.

You know, there is something I've been curious:

Where are the mentions of disease in wartime?

Wars are famous for spreading disease because you have a lot of people with open wounds near each other; this should be especially true when it's wet and pouring and generally almost the best possible conditions for disease to flourish.

So. Where is it, and when's the hammer going to fall?
The good news is, both sides of this war know about antiseptic surgery and sanitation. The wars are being fought with, approximately speaking, World War Two levels of medical competency on both sides, I suspect, since I don't think Lind came out as actively hostile to medical care for soldiers though it wouldn't surprise me.

And by World War Two, the old truism that disease kills more soldiers than enemy fire stops being so true. Both sides know enough about sanitation and how to treat injuries that camp epidemics and wound infections stop being so stupidly dangerous. Which isn't to say it isn't a threat, but it's less of a threat.

If it's going to become a problem, I'm betting on it hitting the Victorians harder. We have a secure supply chain and can set up hospitals in Detroit that have so far been immune to enemy action, so our wounded and sick can be kept somewhere comfortable and reasonably sanitary. The Victorians aren't doing so well, what with the parlous state of their military supply lines, their lack of reliable transportation for their soldiers outside of the fighting units, and difficulty maintaining access to clean water and possibly medical supplies.

But even the Victorians are going to be competent enough to do a lot to prevent dysentery outbreaks in their encampments from soldiers taking a dump upstream of their drinking water supply, and probably to avoid a majority of their wounded soldiers dying of gangrene.
 
Last edited:
Did Atlanta really get nuked in this timeline? Because, if so, there's something we really might want to send a team down to pull out of the rubble...
 
Violation of Rule 3: Be Civil - Play the ball and not the man, using a person's infraction history like this is a personal attack.
Did Atlanta really get nuked in this timeline? Because, if so, there's something we really might want to send a team down to pull out of the rubble...
I don't think the smallpox samples survived detonation.

Given your previous infractions, I hope you weren't suggesting using them.
 
I don't think the smallpox samples survived detonation.

Given your previous infractions, I hope you weren't suggesting using them.

They undoubtedly did, but I am hurt, truly hurt that you would think me capable of weaponizing it. You should take a moment to meditate on what terrible course in life has led you to even conceive of such a thing. I only bring it up because the only other official location is in Russia, Alexander is most certainly ruthless enough to use it under the cover of an escape from the destruction of Atlanta, and our nascent pharmaceutical industry will need samples to prepare a vaccine.

We should probably go check on Fort Detrick as well, purely as a defensive precaution of course. By no means should we consider that surviving a totalitarian post-apocalypse might require invoking anything less wholesome than the insurmountable power of friendship and hugs.
 
Last edited:
We should probably go check on Fort Derrick as well, purely as a defensive precaution of course. By no means should we consider that surviving a totalitarian post-apocalypse might require invoking anything less wholesome than the insurmountable power of friendship and hugs.
Intentionally hitting Victoria with a bioweapon is a little beyond the pale.
 
They undoubtedly did, but I am hurt, truly hurt that you would think me capable of weaponizing it. You should take a moment to meditate on what terrible course in life has led you to even conceive of such a thing. I only bring it up because the only other official location is in Russia, Alexander is most certainly ruthless enough to use it under the cover of an escape from the destruction of Atlanta, and our nascent pharmaceutical industry will need samples to prepare a vaccine.

We should probably go check on Fort Detrick as well, purely as a defensive precaution of course. By no means should we consider that surviving a totalitarian post-apocalypse might require invoking anything less wholesome than the insurmountable power of friendship and hugs.
Bugs do not care about flags or boundaries.
Alexander has not held back from salting civil war China with mutant hemorrhagic fever out of the goodness of his heart; he simply has to look at how quickly the influenza virus mutates and spreads to leave that genie in it's bottle.

Besides, the background of this AU posits at least one artificial plague that got stopped.
Noone wants a repeat. Even Rumford wasnt crazy enough to fuxk with bioweapons.
 
Besides, the background of this AU posits at least one artificial plague that got stopped.
Noone wants a repeat. Even Rumford wasnt crazy enough to fuxk with bioweapons.
Well, he was crazy enough to hold hands and cuddle a little with them, given his track record of deliberately sending disease-infected people to people he didn't like- but no, he didn't run a bioweapons program, and by all evidence Alexander doesn't either. If he considered a smallpox outbreak in the former United States a plausible way to damage the continent even further and thought he could prevent it from affecting his own population somehow, he'd have already done it.
 
Intentionally hitting Victoria with a bioweapon is a little beyond the pale.

I couldn't agree more! It doesn't matter that they are traitors who ubiquitously terrorize their own enslaved populace, have publicly and proudly committed every war crime, crime against peace, and crime against humanity in the book (including biological warfare and unprovoked nuclear first-strike against an ally), and are even now continuing their near century-long genocide against the North American continent, we have to be better than them by sticking to the arbitrary rules they don't even make a pretense of following. Surely, if we are just noble and righteous enough the universe will bend to enforce justice this time after it let bastards like them kill billions and profit from it.


Bugs do not care about flags or boundaries.
Alexander has not held back from salting civil war China with mutant hemorrhagic fever out of the goodness of his heart; he simply has to look at how quickly the influenza virus mutates and spreads to leave that genie in it's bottle.

Besides, the background of this AU posits at least one artificial plague that got stopped.
Noone wants a repeat. Even Rumford wasnt crazy enough to fuxk with bioweapons.

Three guesses which country has produced and still maintains more smallpox vaccine than all others put together. Screwing over everybody in a way which screws him least is his entire MO.

-and yes Rumford did. He deliberately infected his Muslim hostages before shipping them home.
 
Last edited:
I couldn't agree more! It doesn't matter that they are traitors who ubiquitously terrorize their own enslaved populace, have publicly and proudly committed every war crime, crime against peace, and crime against humanity in the book (including biological warfare and unprovoked nuclear first-strike against an ally), and are even now continuing their near century-long genocide against the North American continent, we have to be better than them by sticking to the arbitrary rules they don't even make a pretense of following. Surely, if we are just noble and righteous enough the universe will bend to enforce justice this time after it let bastards like them kill billions and profit from it.
Not to bring nuance into this situation, but it is conceivable that there exist points between the Care Bears and biowarfare, and that this is what your opposition may be advocating as a strategic approach.
 
I couldn't agree more! It doesn't matter that they are traitors who ubiquitously terrorize their own enslaved populace, have publicly and proudly committed every war crime, crime against peace, and crime against humanity in the book (including biological warfare and unprovoked nuclear first-strike against an ally), and are even now continuing their near century-long genocide against the North American continent, we have to be better than them by sticking to the arbitrary rules they don't even make a pretense of following. Surely, if we are just noble and righteous enough the universe will bend to enforce justice this time after it let bastards like them kill billions and profit from it.
Never. NEVER take pride in committing ruthless acts. If the only adhere to your moral code when doing so is easy and convenient, you are bad at adhering to your moral code. If you cannot find a solution to a given problem that is acceptable within your moral code, you have already failed, because you being in that situation means you were neither clever enough to engineer a more palatable solution, nor powerful enough to force one.

I don't care if the Victorians are monsters. We are not becoming monsters ourselves in fighting them, not until literally every other option has been exhausted.
 
The problem then becomes "what happens if someone else with a thicker-skinned aircraft pots it with their own airborne laser from 500 miles away?"
When everyone has airborne lasers and they become ubiquitous, putting them on fragile platforms stops seeming so straightforward a good plan.
Unless you're building something like an armored Orion battleship, or somehow cracked antigrav, that isn't happening.

Airships are not functionally much more fragile than aircraft.
A plane that can carry the sort of payload to threaten an airship mounted laser from long range is just as thin skinned as your airship. And unlike the airship, it has a minimum speed.

Much smaller though; the Hindenburg was several times bigger than a 747.
Well, he was crazy enough to hold hands and cuddle a little with them, given his track record of deliberately sending disease-infected people to people he didn't like- but no, he didn't run a bioweapons program, and by all evidence Alexander doesn't either. If he considered a smallpox outbreak in the former United States a plausible way to damage the continent even further and thought he could prevent it from affecting his own population somehow, he'd have already done it.
Doubt he'd consider it worth the time. Or the precedent set.
CRISPR brings bioweapons into the realm of research universities, big corporations and mediumsize nations.
When you're King Shit of Bullshit mountain, disruptive strategies are not things you promote.

Three guesses which country has produced and still maintains more smallpox vaccine than all others put together. Screwing over everybody in a way which screws him least is his entire MO.
-and yes Rumford did. He deliberately infected his Muslim hostages before shipping them home.
-Doesnt matter. India will not be amused by an accident.

-How is Victoria not a smoking pile of ash by now?
That's the sort of thing that gets a cargo ship armed nuke parked in your largest port and then detonated. I mean, India's Muslim population is in the hundreds of millions. So is Indonesia.
 
-Doesnt matter. India will not be amused by an accident.

-How is Victoria not a smoking pile of ash by now?
That's the sort of thing that gets a cargo ship armed nuke parked in your largest port and then detonated. I mean, India's Muslim population is in the hundreds of millions. So is Indonesia.
It's possible that bit was just Victorian propaganda.
 
Last edited:
Also as a matter of extreme practicality, there are two ways we can obtain high-quality military equipment: looting and trade. America's looking pretty thin on loot both as a matter of being a wasteland and because we didn't take 37 OWE, so that leaves trade.

Guess what being known as literally one of two groups in the world to use bioweapons on a civilian population does for trade.

Edit: Possibly the only.
 
Not to bring nuance into this situation, but it is conceivable that there exist points between the Care Bears and biowarfare, and that this is what your opposition may be advocating as a strategic approach.

-and I don't disagree. After all, what year-old upstart underdog ever beat a hyperpower-backed regional superpower by getting their hands dirty as defined by a self-serving paradigm of international norms which was obsolete and abandoned before most people alive were even born?



Never. NEVER take pride in committing ruthless acts. If the only adhere to your moral code when doing so is easy and convenient, you are bad at adhering to your moral code. If you cannot find a solution to a given problem that is acceptable within your moral code, you have already failed, because you being in that situation means you were neither clever enough to engineer a more palatable solution, nor powerful enough to force one.

I don't care if the Victorians are monsters. We are not becoming monsters ourselves in fighting them, not until literally every other option has been exhausted.

Amen! Preach it!

This is why we need to lay down our arms and invite the remaining Victorian military into the city to enjoy hot cocoa and stimulating conversation until they come to appreciate the virtues of voluntarist pacifism. With their help we're bound to figure out a cooperatively nonviolent way to reform the Victorian government. Perhaps a hunger strike or online petition. Maybe some sort of performative art?
 
Last edited:
-and I don't disagree. After all, what year-old upstart underdog ever beat a hyperpower-backed regional superpower by getting their hands dirty as defined by a self-serving paradigm of international norms which was obsolete and abandoned before most people alive were even born?





Amen! Preach it!

This is why we need to lay down our arms and invite the remaining Victorian military into the city to enjoy hot cocoa and stimulating conversation until they come to appreciate the virtues of voluntarist pacifism. With their help we're bound to figure out a cooperatively nonviolent way to reform the Victorian government. Perhaps a hunger strike or online petition. Maybe some sort of performative art?
Lauloken, have you considered that this may be an inefficient way to advocate for your position?
 
-and I don't disagree. After all, what year-old upstart underdog ever beat a hyperpower-backed regional superpower by getting their hands dirty as defined by a self-serving paradigm of international norms which was obsolete and abandoned before most people alive were even born?
If this is how you are going to choose to advocate your position, I would rather you leave.
 
Amen! Preach it!

This is why we need to lay down our arms and invite the remaining Victorian military into the city to enjoy hot cocoa and stimulating conversation until they come to appreciate the virtues of voluntarist pacifism. With their help we're bound to figure out a cooperatively nonviolent way to reform the Victorian government. Perhaps a hunger strike or online petition. Maybe some sort of performative art?
Are you trying to sound like a sanctimonious prick? Because if so, you're doing a very good job.

Let it be known that I have no problem whatsoever putting my boot into the face of someone who has come over into my territory and is trying to burn my shit. That said, what I do have a problem with is killing people who happen to be adjacent to those who have pissed me off. Collateral damage is considered by most sane people to be a bad thing, after all.
 
Amen! Preach it!

This is why we need to lay down our arms and invite the remaining Victorian military into the city to enjoy hot cocoa and stimulating conversation until they come to appreciate the virtues of voluntarist pacifism. With their help we're bound to figure out a cooperatively nonviolent way to reform the Victorian government. Perhaps a hunger strike or online petition. Maybe some sort of performative art?

You know what, you've convinced me. We should be H A R D E R. We need to kill our enemies. We need to hurt our enemies, become demons, and bring hell to them. But bioweapons are too slow, too unpredictable. We should instead raid the NCR for their nuclear stockpiles. Then we can turn the entire East Coast into irradiated ash! Then, once they're utterly scorched into oblivion, let's deliberately allow the Victorian refugees into Detroit so we can nuke them up more easily. As long as we destroy our enemies, we win, right?
 
If the choice to commit all available forces is made, can the BRO be deployed anyway as a write-in? It's admittedly more of a narrative thing, but it seems to be a good idea to call upon the BRO anyway, if only to further the defensive advantage and to have people who will actually hit their targets.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top