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Raise your hand if we need to go through the entirety of public records and make the 'definitive list of shit in Chicago people have forgotten about'.

Edit: in that vain of thought there's also a nuclear reactor buried under the universities metallurgy dapartment...

Edit2: No, it was moved, but it's instead buried at Red Gate and there's another at the Argonne National Laboratory.

Edit3: Also there's Northstar who make jet components somewhere in Illinois and Boeing's international headquarters is in Chicago so they'll have the plans and paperwork for how to make large aircraft.
 
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If we're going to be cooking up a new ship to supply our Lakes fleet with, I think it should be a dedicated anti-air ship. The only think that keeps us from ruling the lakes completely right now is the Victorian air force. Once that's dealt with, or at least once we can make their air raids extremely painful for them, we can afford to play much more aggressively.

Assuming we can defend it adequately, a ship designed explicitly for long-range sea-to-land bombardment would also be helpful. It would put more pressure on the Victorian base at Buffalo, and it would solidify our hold on the land around the lakes.

Ironically, the one thing we don't really need is ships designed for naval combat– we've trashed the Victorian 'navy' so thoroughly (and then trashed its replacement nearly as badly) that I doubt any such ship would have anything worth fighting.
 
guys....we should REALLY go with U-boats and submarines...I mean having a WW2 sub show up in the Victorian harbors and blasting all their shipping to kingdom come? and then disappearing under the waves while the jets can only impotently shoot missiles at the water (and potentially piss off every sea god including Big G himself for disrespecting creation...possible...in the forms of Nat-1's), and then we can unleash coastal subs to really fuck them over! proceed to do this in every major river that actually has the depth capable of this feat and then proceed to choke Victoria of its naval assets...heck even transport bombs and special unit cells into their infrastructure and military bases!

then we can upgrade to metal gear Arsenal! think of that monster hitting Victoria as our endgame super-sub! (only we add more then dozens of missile silos and just 25 MP-MG-RAYS...like allot of torpedo racks, gun mounts, AA guns, ridiculous BB armor rating, ect. ect.)

edit: This is totally not me going "MUAHAHAHAHAHA!" Over U-Boats because my dads German and I was a bit of a WW2 history addict when I was younger...specifically German…

U-Boats are awesome though, shame that most of the captains died...especially that one guy that managed to sink the royal hood in its harbor before the British could sink a derelict merchantmen in the path needed for that sub to get into said harbor...took 2 torpedo spreads (around 3 hits each) to sink the BB that's still in that harbor to this day.

okay I may have a bit of a problem...but honest its normal!

Counterpoint:



Anti-ship missiles are a much better fit for the terrain we're going to be fighting in. Fits on a variety of both land and sea platforms, has good range and damage, is guided which extends effective range and accuracy over the unguided torpedo, countermeasures are harder to implement for our foes without extensive intervention from the overlord or overhaul of society, doesn't require a unique platform built for a very unusual terrain most other platforms of its type are not built for, etc.

Miami might have a reason to pick subs but Chicago's location makes it hard to justify the difficulties of procuring a lakeborne submarine. Anti-ship missiles on the other hand accomplish what Chicago wants out of its navy and navy-adjacent forces (which is to say to deny and/or destroy usable Victorian sealift on the Great Lakes first, everyone else in the lakes and rivers second) with room to grow to in the future.
 
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NO! No WWII Era subs. We do not want to deal with the mechanical nightmare that is the Mark 14 Torpedo.

On a more serious note, coastal raiding does sound useful, but there's no way we can use subs to their full effect in the Great Lakes, and there's no way we can sneak it through St. Lawrence.

its more we have one that mostly works. we would of course make modern torps for it. but the sub is right there, we might be able to use it.
 
@Exterminatus our industry is weak, we'd put out such a ship after the war finishes, as it is we might be able to make a WWII destroyer or two but even those would take steel away from making other things like trucks or cargo ships.

Hell, one of the best things we could use the sub for is special forces deployment or as a secret/secure message courier until we have its torpedoes ready and maybe get rubber baffle covering for the sub, WWII subs are relatively noisy and would be damn easy for modern sonar to pick up.
 
@Exterminatus our industry is weak, we'd put out such a ship after the war finishes, as it is we might be able to make a WWII destroyer or two but even those would take steel away from making other things like trucks or cargo ships.

Hell, one of the best things we could use the sub for is special forces deployment or as a secret/secure message courier until we have its torpedoes ready and maybe get rubber baffle covering for the sub, WWII subs are relatively noisy and would be damn easy for modern sonar to pick up.

:???: If you are that concerned about the metal coefficient (which is to say the ratio of final device to metal used) then submarines make no sense compared to wood and steel (or even pure wood) surface ships seeing as the former will be using substantially more metal than the latter. It's also possible to use wood for land devices if you're still worried about that part.

As for the niche uses of a sub; yes those are niches but they'll be niches that will rarely come into play and substitutes for those niches exist. They don't justify an extensive investment especially since the inherent difficulties of operating a lakeborne submarine combined with much better substitutes for accomplishing the intended role of a lakeborne submarine makes it a poor investment for both the near and far future.
 
Actually if we want subs, it would make more sense to either look into manned torpedoes:

human torpedo

Or something similar to a midget sub or a narco-sub:

midget sub
Narco-submarine

One is for harassing enemy shipping, the other is for covert messaging or transport.

And the Narco-sub has the advantage that you can build the hull out of fibreglass, which reduces the amount of steel needed for construction.

Another ship type I would suggest is PT boats.
 
A group of saboteurs operating out of a submarine can do a lot of damage due their ability to appear anywhere along the great lakes and the surrounding rivers. blowing up bridges will disrupt the supply lines of victoria until they guard every bridge they need and that will tie up troops.
 
Non-Canon Omake: Victorian Foreign Relations
oh hey I made a thing



McCullum's eyes look around the empty room, a faded misery about it, four guards at each corner, one bare wooden chair and a worn desk in the middle, speckled with dried blood from his last "meeting", next to the chair is a man in some mockery of a marines uniform, the standard medals replaced by crosses and the label Christian Marines instead of any pre collapse insignia, the smile on his face all too real in the worst ways.

"Mr Cullum" the man said in that faux English accent that identified a Victorian elite "take a Seat" McCullum had a look at the pistol on the man's belt, wondering if the inevitable death that would come from trying to take the gun would be the better of his options, after a few seconds he finally sat on the chair, folding his hands on the desk "so, what do you want from me this time?"

"What do I want?" the man said, his smile degrading into an empty expression "well I'll tell you some information and then you can tell me what I want "Supply chief"" he stopped for just a second, hands pressed together before continuing "four days ago, one of the garrison patrols in Monclova went missing, three days ago the technical patrolling the old Dixie highway was destroyed by a mine, just yesterday I was told that we had found the charred bodies of the missing patrol, last night I awoke to an explosion from the airport inn that Killed Three pilots and gave me a splitting headache, so tell me McCullum, what do I Want?"
McCullum blinked "…..if you want to know about any secret Assassins in Toledo, ask Gregor*, as for me you already have all the records on soldiers, and I've already told you where all the hidden arms depots are, I can't help you."

"Oh, really?" the man said, he snapped his fingers, at which point one of the guards handed him a series of papers, which he flitted through for a moment until he came across a specific folder "between the 4th​ of May and 12th​ of September 2074, you were having a quite major supply problem, in that time you lost 50 assault rifles, 45 Pounds of assorted military equipment and 6 pounds of C4 due to a supply raid by the warlord of Sandusky" the man's grin returned "I would've thought even an old American would realise keeping such major military equipment under lock and key was imperative"

One of the guards pulled out a wrench.

"Okay okay I see what you're getting at, I had a few personal friends of mine in Waterville just in case the warlord decided I was a threat some of the raids were real but I used it as cover to steal the Explosives and some other valuables we stored them at The old abandoned petrol station the one next to the post office we were going to sell it at Detroit after bailing and then use the money to head for Chicago we only took 12 rifles enough to make sure no bandits would try and kill us on the way please put the fucking wrench down" a look from the officer, and the guard put the wrench away, McCullum took a deep breath "is that all you fucking want?"

"I would prefer names Mr Cullum"

Now this was a trick McCullum new all too well

"What so you can put them on a list and fucking shoot me? Get me as far away from this room as possible and I will tell you the names"
The officer looked at McCullum like he was staring at an insect "Pity, eh well" did the Vic even have the ability to frown? He pointed to another guard "you there, get this man some refreshments, glass, none of that plastic garbage" the guard nodded and as he left the officer put a rather sharp looking combat knife on the table. McCullum stared at the knife, a bit of sweat dripping of his forehead

"Beautiful. Isn't it? I had it crafted by a proper retro-culture blacksmith, no soulless factory lines in this blade, the handle is made from real British oak." The officer struck a conversationalist tone to which McCullum stayed silent. The guard returned with a miscellaneous glass bottle with liquid in it, from the colour of the liquid it could be either vodka, water, or poison. The guard placed the bottle on the table gently and proceeded to return to his corner.

"A drink, Mr Cullum?" the officer said, no smile on his face. McCullum stared at the bottle, then the knife, and shook his head "feel like keeping my hand"

A loud smash, a throbbing pain in his head, McCullum put a hand on his bleeding head, and through blurry vision saw the officer return to his seat
"It's impolite to refuse a drink from a host, now tell me the names and we can forget that little outburst of yours"
McCullum groaned his head spinning "fuck off, you need me"
The officer frowned for the first time, then spoke to the guards "your turn now, don't call me back until you've at least broken his fingers" McCullum struggled to his feet getting out of the chair just as the guard with the wrench smashed into his knee, the last thing he remembered about that day was the smiles on the guards faces.




I'm kind of new to this
1st asterisk: Gregor is the titular warlord himself, Stalin levels of paranoid he kept records of all threats in Toledo including all soldiers, Victorian spies, and secret police just so he knew exactly what was going where, a error in an underlings arms folder would get you executed, gross incompetence usually only a warning hence the "Raids taking the C4"

huh. don't have anything else, well uh SEE YA LATER SUCKAS WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP
 
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Uuh, wasn't Chicago run by Nazi's for a while? If so, there's probably plans to refurbish the thing/attempts to recreate them floating around because of course they'd want to recreate their own kreigsmarine complete with unrestricted sub warcrimes warfare.
The Nazis were chased out of Chicago quickly, by all of the everyone.

Also a few unsuccessful mechanized operations going against them.

its more we have one that mostly works. we would of course make modern torps for it. but the sub is right there, we might be able to use it.
Getting U-505 back in the water would be a fairly major engineering project even if no significant repairs or refurbishment were needed. Enough that it would probably cost less to build new gunboats or even new submarines, unit for unit, I suspect. I could be wrong I guess?

A group of saboteurs operating out of a submarine can do a lot of damage due their ability to appear anywhere along the great lakes and the surrounding rivers. blowing up bridges will disrupt the supply lines of victoria until they guard every bridge they need and that will tie up troops.
The Victorian presence on the Lakes is actually kind of limited unless we can push them out of Buffalo, take the area around Niagara Falls, and start using the Welland Canal to put stuff into Lake Ontario.

Also, not sure this justifies a big purpose-built WWII U-boat, among other things because a WWII U-boat isn't optimal for carrying commandos or for even submerging in lakes in the first place (high conning tower)
 
The Nazis were chased out of Chicago quickly, by all of the everyone.

Getting U-505 back in the water would be a fairly major engineering project even if no significant repairs or refurbishment were needed. Enough that it would probably cost less to build new gunboats or even new submarines, unit for unit, I suspect. I could be wrong I guess?

The Victorian presence on the Lakes is actually kind of limited unless we can push them out of Buffalo, take the area around Niagara Falls, and start using the Welland Canal to put stuff into Lake Ontario.

Also, not sure this justifies a big purpose-built WWII U-boat, among other things because a WWII U-boat isn't optimal for carrying commandos or for even submerging in lakes in the first place (high conning tower)

This is basically where I'm at. A sub is useful, but the question isn't how useful it is, it's if it's more useful than the best alternative. Getting a submarine is likely to require a lot of actions (repairing, testing, design) compared to improving the ships we already have, and subs are only most useful if you don't already have naval superiority, which we do. Yes, subs are not vulnerable to aircraft, but those aircraft arn't going to disappear, they are just going to strike at the rest of our navy. We are much better off investing those actions in superior anti-aircraft boats or a air force that can contest the sky.
 
Seriously contesting Victorian air superiority with our own planes probably isn't an option for the next few years; we're in the "tools to make the tools" stage anyway. Mass production of our own air defense weaponry and fielding warships liberally festooned with AA weapons to inflict attritional losses on the Viks is probably our best strategy in the short run.

[Although in the short run the Viks are badly handicapped by Californian sabotage, which reduces the threat and the urgency of meeting it in any form]
 
We don't need subs-centric force.
We need some subs - doesn't matter if they're small, or short-ranged, or whatever other problems they'd have.

If we have at least some subs, we:
a) Start rebuilding expertise on using subs - useful once we finish our march to the sea.
b) Force Victorians to acknowledge another threat vector, forcing them to spend time and money on antisubmarine warfare.
c) Learn how to oppose subs - since we'd have naval supremacy in this lake for the foreseeable future, Victorians might get the bright idea to use submarines.

FCNY doesn't know what to do about submarines. NCR most likely doesn't have experience with them either.
MIami might have some, but it's not certain, we don't have any concrete info about them and we don't know if we would actually need to fight with them too.
 
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We don't need subs-centric force.
We need some subs - doesn't matter if they're small, or short-ranged, or whatever other problems they'd have.

If we have at least some subs, we:
a) Start rebuilding expertise on using subs - useful once we finish our march to the sea.
b) Force Victorians to acknowledge another threat vector, forcing them to spend time and money on antisubmarine warfare.
c) Learn how to oppose subs - since we'd have naval supremacy in this lake for the foreseeable future, Victorians might get the bright idea to use submarines.

FCNY doesn't know what to do about submarines. NCR most likely doesn't have experience with them either.
MIami might have some, but it's not certain, we don't have any concrete info about them and we don't know if we would actually need to fight with them too.
The NCR has an extensive coastline and one of their biggest weaknesses is the Russians' naval superiority. They're probably waaay ahead of us on the naval front.

Honestly, our riverine navy is a very valuable asset, but I don't think we should overplay our hand here. We're an inland power and it's very likely that if we try too hard to build it up in hopes of "gaining experience" for a future oceangoing navy, we'll end up learning a lot of the wrong lessons and having to restart the naval design process all over again in the future.
 
The NCR has an extensive coastline and one of their biggest weaknesses is the Russians' naval superiority. They're probably waaay ahead of us on the naval front.

Honestly, our riverine navy is a very valuable asset, but I don't think we should overplay our hand here. We're an inland power and it's very likely that if we try too hard to build it up in hopes of "gaining experience" for a future oceangoing navy, we'll end up learning a lot of the wrong lessons and having to restart the naval design process all over again in the future.

Especially since, ultimately, our brown/green water navy is effectively a force multiplier intended to enhance our land forces rather than something which can truly project power on its own.

That said if we manage to win in a decisive fashion at Detroit then I'd imagine the stories about the Chicago Commonwealth Navy are going to make it a highly useful tool in diplomacy coming up seeing as so far it's played a pretty critical role on two different instances in doing serious harm to the Vicks.
 
We're definitely going to want to expand and maintain the current Commonwealth Navy in the short-to medium term (the next 5-10 years).

It's just that we should be specifically focused on building gunboats to fight the Victorians on Lake Erie, not on developing a future force that can fight on the seas. We are so hilariously far from that that trying to build up institutions for it is waaay down our list of priorities.

I think we'd do better to convince some of the other remnant states to merge with us and form something with naval power inherited from their side of the family, as it were.
 
We're definitely going to want to expand and maintain the current Commonwealth Navy in the short-to medium term (the next 5-10 years).

It's just that we should be specifically focused on building gunboats to fight the Victorians on Lake Erie, not on developing a future force that can fight on the seas. We are so hilariously far from that that trying to build up institutions for it is waaay down our list of priorities.

I think we'd do better to convince some of the other remnant states to merge with us and form something with naval power inherited from their side of the family, as it were.

We'll also want some sort of Mississippi Flotilla for helping support our diplomatic efforts down the Big Muddy. Nothing would better convince people to help re-establish riverine trade all the way down to New Orleans than actually having the means to very strongly, directly persuade river pirates to find a new profession.
 
The NCR has an extensive coastline and one of their biggest weaknesses is the Russians' naval superiority. They're probably waaay ahead of us on the naval front.

Honestly, our riverine navy is a very valuable asset, but I don't think we should overplay our hand here. We're an inland power and it's very likely that if we try too hard to build it up in hopes of "gaining experience" for a future oceangoing navy, we'll end up learning a lot of the wrong lessons and having to restart the naval design process all over again in the future.

Their status as a protectorate and russian scrutiny would likely mean that the most they would have is coast guard, no?
They most likely don't have submarines, or much experience in dealing with them, as those are tools of warfare first and foremost and NCR doesn't need those, according to Russia.
AShMs are much more likely to be their solution to Russian naval supremacy.

And we don't need to build ocean-going navy right now; However, having some idea of how subs work and having some reasonably experienced people who had served on them would be better than having books to go off and a specter of russian navy looming on the horizon. For that purpose, we don't need more than a submarine or three, which could be used in the second Detroit campaign should it become necessary.
 
We'll also want some sort of Mississippi Flotilla for helping support our diplomatic efforts down the Big Muddy. Nothing would better convince people to help re-establish riverine trade all the way down to New Orleans than actually having the means to very strongly, directly persuade river pirates to find a new profession.
The Des Plaines-class is already specifically optimized for riverine warfare, to the point where they actually suffer small penalties on certain operations on Lake Erie. So that's just a matter of building more Des Plaines-class gunboats.

Their status as a protectorate and russian scrutiny would likely mean that the most they would have is coast guard, no?
They most likely don't have submarines, or much experience in dealing with them, as those are tools of warfare first and foremost and NCR doesn't need those, according to Russia.
AShMs are much more likely to be their solution to Russian naval supremacy.
Yes, but by the time we're in any position to contend with them for power, they WILL have an ocean-going fleet. It's going to be one of the first things they work on after they get their independence secured, I suspect.


And we don't need to build ocean-going navy right now; However, having some idea of how subs work and having some reasonably experienced people who had served on them would be better than having books to go off and a specter of russian navy looming on the horizon. For that purpose, we don't need more than a submarine or three, which could be used in the second Detroit campaign should it become necessary.
The problem is that maintaining a handful of prototype subs is a significant diversion of effort, resources, and our probably very limited design and planning staff.

I think this is one of those cases where there's a tug-of-war between "this capability would be useful to have" and "the opportunity cost of developing and maintaining this capability is probably more trouble than it's worth."
 
Yes, but by the time we're in any position to contend with them for power, they WILL have an ocean-going fleet. It's going to be one of the first things they work on after they get their independence secured, I suspect.

By the time we're in position to contend with them for power - sure.
How about helping them set necessary stuff up? It's not like their declaration of independence would magick up engineers experienced in building ships and subs.
If we ourselves spend some time learning that stuff (We still have a year and a half to do so), our assistance could bring us (more) trade with NCR and shave off some months or maybe even a year of work for californians.
 
Here is a list of things I think we need more than subs for the next engagement-

Friendly (or at least neutral) relations with our neighbors
Drones or some other way to scout
More Anti-Air and/or an air-force that can sustain more than one engagement
Counterintelligence network
More boats so we don't risk losing control of the waterways
Removing Victoria from Toledo
Infantry with more training than the Victorians
Rebuilding Detroit in an actual ally/joining with them so all our material isn't making a huge journey from Chicago
A tank production line
Other mechanized warfare
Taking and Fortifying Peelee island
Intelligence on Victoria actions

If we manage to get all that, sure let's go subs. And if we get sub without costing us actions sure. But why should I vote for subs over any of that?
 
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I've been on a shift since Thursday morning. If there are outstanding questions, I will need them restated.

Wait wait it's FUNCTIONAL? I thought the parts were recreations, I never thought they were real!

Erm. That changes some things. Uh, it's been a few decades so it'll need repairs?

I'd be very hestitant to take that ship out, pressure hulls are delicate matter and if they aren't up to snuff.... well, it will dive, once. OTOH the lakes aren't particularly deep, so there is that, but stil its crush depth is probably a fraction of what it was....
 
The Des Plaines-class is already specifically optimized for riverine warfare, to the point where they actually suffer small penalties on certain operations on Lake Erie.
Anything where their inability to safely lose sight of shore presents an issue, yeah. The current operation isn't an issue because it's all in the shallows of the Lake, but sneaking up to Buffalo took a penalty because it restricted the space you could use. They'll also have problems in rough weather, thanks to their shallow draft.
 
Meanwhile in Florida

St. Petersburg, Florida
8 May, 2075

Two young men lounge on a battered blanket, toes firmly dug into sand. Water laps at the earth a few feet away from them, glittering in the dusk light. A seagull cries somewhere nearby, echoed by a flock a little further down the beach. The two pass a cigarette back and forth, grey curling up from the tip and trailing away into the western breeze. Salt lays heavy in the air, definite but almost unnoticeable; they've never known anything else.

The sound of footsteps approaches, one determined step after another. Neither one bothers to open their eyes. They know that tread.

A young woman plops herself down in-between them, her dark skin just a shade off theirs. She wriggles in, wielding her elbows like the precision weapons they are, unafraid to nip here and there when she isn't obeyed fast enough. The other two roll their eyes but let her push them to the edges of the blanket, sides pressed against hers.

"Did you hear about that mess up north?"

She's face-down, words muffled by the blanket. Both of them hear her. Neither one replies.

The girl turns her head just enough to expose one glaring eye. When that doesn't get the results she wants, she snatches a hand out snake-quick, plucking the cigarette out of a hand just as it's about to be passed. She sucks it right down to the end, then flicks what's left out towards the seagull.

Overlapping protests don't stop her from burrowing back into the blanket smugly, letting loose the resulting smoke in a thick grey cloud. "I said, did you hear about that mess up north?"

The boy on her right, Matteo, shrugs. "Something about Chicago being crazy, again."

Thomas lays back, eyes closed once more now that the cigarette is gone. "Don't they have pizza to argue over?"

Yolanda huffs warningly, getting her elbows back in striking distance of their kidneys. "They declared war on the Vics."

That gets a considering silence. "Woah," Matteo declares.

"Think they'll make it?" Thomas' eyes flick open, scanning restlessly over the stars as the wink into place. He wasn't born yet when his mother made the trip from Puerto Rico over to Miami, from Miami to St. Pete. But he knows the stories she won't talk to him about, fit himself under furniture late at night to listen to her talk to his grandmother about it. He knows what the Vics did to people like him.

"Nah," Matteo says. He's St. Pete back through four generations. He grew up on stories about how hard Tampa Bay crashed in the first days of the Collapse, how the tourist economy trickled into nothing and everyone went hungry. His family may have never seen a Vic in the flesh, but they know as well as anyone how far their destruction reached.

The three of them lay there while the sun paints reds and oranges over their clothes, reflects jewel tones onto the waters at their feet. Yolanda curls into them both, a chilly breeze ruffling her hair. No one knows where her family came from. Her mom died in childbirth in a house where no one spoke her native tongue, and the doctor raised Yolanda as her own. Another history lost to the Vics.

"I hope they do," she says, just loud enough for them to hear. "I hope they kill every single Vic dead."

"Yeah," Thomas says, "I do too."

Matteo doesn't say anything out loud, but he wraps an ankle around Yolanda's, and lets them have their prayer.
Ooh, interesting! Just a heads-up that St. Petersburg and the greater Tampa area in general are not, at this time, part of the Miami Revivalist state. Obviously this specific omake doesn't rely on it being in the fold, but do you have any plans depending on that going forward? If so, would you like to re-set this?
 
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