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Every section here would take actions to get otherwise, some of them even more than established, claiming that established is uniquely bad in that regard is kind of begging the question.
A point that many people may be missing on Established --

Without it, we act for Chicago only. This means that whatever military actions we take rely on only Chicago and the immediate surrounding countryside. This means that whatever infrastructure actions we take affect only Chicago and the immediate surrounding countryside.

If anyone wants to take early disadvantages to get long-term advantages, we will only be able to take meaningful action to fix these other disadvantages once Established is bought off. We know this takes multiple actions over multiple turns. That means turn three at the earliest. If the action needs a roll, and we roll poorly, perhaps turn four or five.

Victoria will attack at turn four at the latest.

Therefore anyone who is not solely relying on the Old World units to beat Victoria the first time really needs Established.
 
Let's define "reverence," in this context. The base definition to "revere" something is to view something with admiration and/or great respect. In fact, this is the attitude the populace of the United States holds towards its military now. I dunno if other countries have this policy, but for those who don't know, members of the US military can expect a discount for most services and products in the private sector. Furthermore, US servicemen and women tend to shake a lot of hands. Admiration and respect. Considering the harrowing experience of combat, the mental scars and severed limbs that accompany it, it's reasonable to assume that service members of any nation deserve something for the sacrifice in time, limb, and life they give to their cause. (There are, of course, exceptions. The militias in Rwanda, the forces present in the Balkan War, etc.)

I understand, however, that @Rat King was making the assertion that militarism of any flavor was anathema to a healthy, democratic state, which doesn't necessarily translate into opposition to my own assertion above. Considering that I've seen a few unabashedly left-wing posters here, I wanted to see if Rat King would agree with the previous paragraph's sentiment. Now, I replied to that assertion with a request for clarification, primarily because I fundamentally disagree with the notion that a democracy or representative republic is mutually exclusive with a strong military that sees moderate use, but I didn't want to misinterpret Rat King's own assertion into a straw man.

I, once again, use the US of A's military as an example, specifically the carrier groups and attached MEUs she has in each sea. During the tsunamis that hit Japan like a meteor in 2011, the 11th MEU was on-site providing humanitarian aid. Positive contribution of a professional fighting force. During Hurricane Katrina, the legendary 82nd Airborne Division provided humanitarian aid to the American populace struck by the storm. This one directly benefited the populace that division is supported by. Even the National Guard, operated by State governments and consisting of troops that only exercise (barring disasters or attack) on the weekend, is a highly centralized and purpose-malleable force capable of responding to anything from natural disaster to suppression of riots. (Baltimore, in 2015. The protests were reasonable, the rioting that followed was not.)

Let us, for the fun of it, go with a more extreme example of militarism from a domestic perspective, but not as excessively as, say, Starship Troopers. Let's say that there was some form of introduction to military thought to students in high school on a nationally mandated level. The US actually has something like this, the JROTC at the high school level, but it's not required. Let's say it is, in this example of extended militarism. This certainly goes further than the two-year compulsory service some European countries require. (Sweden, a fairly forward-thinking liberal democracy, due to some Russians with Rusting Rockets.)

Consider, however, the positives of this experience. Let's say a student decides to study in an Armored Course. This would impart basic knowledge of automobiles and their machinery, paving the way for a civilian, mechanic or heavy machinery career. This theoretical student's mind has been enriched and their opportunities expanded. Taken to its logical conclusion, you would find yourself with students whose knowledge of First Aid, leadership, physics, cybersecurity, and maybe even aviation provides them with a foot in the door in the civilian world. There would always be a steady-stream of workers with valuable skills in important sectors of the market, and you would have a trained general populace to resist foreign invasion to boot! Ancient Athens wishes it could have this democracy.

This doesn't really have an effect on the quest. I don't intend on championing the curriculum brainstormed above. I simply felt that discussing militarism is a healthy thing to do in the context of the quest, especially considering we haven't quite come to a consensus on how to use our military and leverage Burns's perks and baggage in relation to any independent states or settlements we might stumble on... Probably not too healthy, considering I wrote this out an hour and change past midnight.

Okay, so, first point at which it appears we disagree - I consider the US military's cultural status to be a significant problem. Among other things, it makes legitimate criticism of the military and/or attempts to reduce its (massively bloated) funding needlessly difficult. I don't disagree that humanitarian aid and technical knowledge are good things; I do, however, question why either of those must be intrinsically associated with an organization primarily dedicated to the pursuit of violence against enemies of the state. Nor do I disagree that our present in-game circumstances demand military force - I'm not going to try and say we should talk the fascists down, certainly - but it seems dangerous to mythologize that military excessively when the present hope should be that we'll come out the other side of this with a functioning system of government.
 
I'll wait until the vote is opened to really decide on a plan, but i think we REALLY should take established. ESPECIALLY if we have the victorian attention disadvantage!

Established (-2 CP): You have broad recognition as the legitimate government of your region. Your neighbors and a few more distant powers recognize your legitimacy, as do your own citizens. If you do not take this, then at game start the Chicago Congress is ongoing and the Accords have yet to be signed; you control Chicago proper and nothing else, and will need to invest actions into completing the Congress. Failure to do so has dire consequences, both for trying and failing to found a nation in the international spotlight and for making me go through government creation pointlessly.

We don't want to be a single unacknowledged city where even our citizens don't acknowledge us when we're under attack.

If we're unlucky Victoria could attack even BEFORE THE ACCORDS ARE SIGNED! We don't want that. It's LITERALLY the most immediately usefull advantage right now. Honestly i think it should have been default, not an advantage we have to buy. But it is, so we should buy it.
 
This:
[X][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards.
[X][GOV] Form a coalition with the Socialists. Together with them, you will dominate the government.
-[x][GOV] Cave in on the healthcare issue. You are worried about the state of healthcare, to be honest, you were only worried about the cost.
 
Just to point out for the people arguing against Rail Companies as a tradeoff for military advantages having a functional rail network is a major force multiplier when most armies cannot use combustion engines on any large scale. Being able to swiftly move troops, along with economic assets, at scale is an advantage not to be scoffed at especially when you're talking a defensive military situation.

Let's consider the scale of tech we're likely to be facing from a Vickie intervention force: a limited quantity of tanks, very little in the way of sophisticated aircraft, lots of infantry and stormtrooper tactics.

That's all stuff that is best described as a late WWI type military force and one thing that kept WWI from becoming mobile on the Western Front was the existence of railroad networks on both sides. Simply put when you've got tanks but not enough other mobile capacity to mount up your infantry then you've got some slow trench breakers who can't move any faster than their supporting foot-based elements. That means having rail lines means having the capacity to move troops and supplies at a much quicker pace than footslogging infantry which means the ability to thwart any breakthroughs or enemy offensives.

Remember: the Vickies depended heavily, thanks in part to Lindian handwaving but also due to their dependence on terror tactics, on mobility, shock and keeping things fluid. If we can make things static then we will consistently break their teeth on the rocks of an immovable object. It's also a much easier form of warfare, especially for inexperienced troops, than something that requires more sophisticated or mobile operations.

And the best way to create said immovable object is by having a solid rail network.

We'll also need such a rail network to expand on existing trade, diplomatic and military operations beyond Chicago. Good infrastructure means good logistics and good logistics gives the bedrock of a functional, industrial-scale society. Control of waterways, which Brown Water Navy gives, is also important but when you combine that with effective rail networks you'll get an industrial/infrastructural powerhouse that the Vickies will have a hard time cracking by force and I think they've overplayed the terror card so much in the years leading up to present day that we can thwart their subversive measures.
 
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I think they have trucks though.

IIRC the Vickies actively disdain the use of anything more sophisticated than trains with the exception of T-34 tanks due to their whole Retroculture ideology that involves scrapping any technology that's too "new" or "modern". From what I do recall from the Let's Read whenever the Vickies used their T-34s they were transporting the infantry through tank desant and not dedicated transports, a method that works in a pinch but has serious drawbacks starting with that the infantry themselves are hideously vulnerable, the tanks themselves are limited in what they can do because they're operating as ersatz mobile infantry transports and logistically speaking is just plain dumb.

ON EDIT: I stand corrected as @Lazer Raptor the Vickies have a small quantity of mobile forces, mostly mounted on civilian trucks and the like, but most importantly these units are used for moving troops and not, quite critically, for the boring jobs of logistics and communications support. In other words they have mobile forces but those mobile units will have a really tenuous logistical tail that's likely to rely much more heavily on looting the countryside than a secure supply chain.

In other words the exact kind of force that would break itself to pieces on a well-sustained defensive force that has a strong logistical network. Having a rail network guarantees, especially with how weak our combustion-based options are, that we'll have a better supply chain than any mobile Vickie forces.
 
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Based on discussion, I think these are the items most people want:
Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
Established (-2 CP)
Good Security (-1 CP)
Independent Merchants (-2 CP)
Rail Companies (-2 CP)
Widespread Vaccinations (-3 CP)
Efficient Bureaucracy (-3 CP)
Libraries (-2 CP) OR Universities (-2 CP)

Here's the problem: That's 17 CP points, and we only start with 4 CP. Taking 13 CP worth disadvantages seems... ill advised, especially since we already have the 2CP disadvantage Victorian Attention. So we have to cut some of these.

Here's an example of a plan that tries to get everything done.

[] Plan Get Everything
-[] Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Hostile Neighborhood (1 CP)
-[] Good Security (-1 CP)
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Victorian Sympathizers (2 CP)
-[] Independent Merchants (-2 CP)
-[] Rail Companies (-2 CP)
-[] Widespread Vaccinations (-3 CP)
-[] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3 CP)
-[] Disunited Currency (3 CP)
-[] Population Boom (2 CP)
-[] Import/Export Professionals (1 CP)
-[] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[] Empty Spaces (1 CP)
-[] Crossed Wires (2 CP)
-[] Total 4 CP Start + 13 CP Income Minus 17 CP Spent

I'm not even gonna try poking holes in the plan. It could technically work. It's definitely going too far.

(On a minor note, I support Libraries over Universities. "You have ready access to a massive amount of information, and enough books to support a large slice of your population in literacy." Most of our populations simply don't have enough books to have literacy. But it's still an item that we might want to cut.)
 
Based on discussion, I think these are the items most people want:
Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
Established (-2 CP)
Good Security (-1 CP)
Independent Merchants (-2 CP)
Rail Companies (-2 CP)
Widespread Vaccinations (-3 CP)
Efficient Bureaucracy (-3 CP)
Libraries (-2 CP) OR Universities (-2 CP)

Here's the problem: That's 17 CP points, and we only start with 4 CP. Taking 13 CP worth disadvantages seems... ill advised, especially since we already have the 2CP disadvantage Victorian Attention. So we have to cut some of these.

Here's an example of a plan that tries to get everything done.

[] Plan Get Everything
-[] Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
-[] Established (-2 CP)
-[] Hostile Neighborhood (1 CP)
-[] Good Security (-1 CP)
-[] Disastrous Start (1 CP)
-[] Victorian Sympathizers (2 CP)
-[] Independent Merchants (-2 CP)
-[] Rail Companies (-2 CP)
-[] Widespread Vaccinations (-3 CP)
-[] Efficient Bureaucracy (-3 CP)
-[] Disunited Currency (3 CP)
-[] Population Boom (2 CP)
-[] Import/Export Professionals (1 CP)
-[] Libraries (-2 CP)
-[] Empty Spaces (1 CP)
-[] Crossed Wires (2 CP)
-[] Total 4 CP Start + 13 CP Income Minus 17 CP Spent

I'm not even gonna try poking holes in the plan. It could technically work. It's definitely going too far.

(On a minor note, I support Libraries over Universities. "You have ready access to a massive amount of information, and enough books to support a large slice of your population in literacy." Most of our populations simply don't have enough books to have literacy. But it's still an item that we might want to cut.)

Universities are better because libraries are limited in utility without experts to parse the information. Plus experts are more likely to understand the actual real world applications of the knowledge. Professors are generally scholars as well as researchers and we need that.

I think we can also do without widespread vaccinations and independent merchants. We are already going to be investing heavily in healthcare, and the economy will develop over time even if we start with no merchants. We need the railroads though to move troops as well as for economic value.
 
Also universities have bookstores and libraries full of textbooks and reference material. I would know after all.
I sorely doubt Poptart is going to let us grt two for price of one lol.

Unis options is pretty explicitly about having a bit of experts in a lot of fields, as opposed to wide spread of basic literacy and reference materials of libraries.

Libraries are better long-term investment IMO, as experts are old and books don't die, and reference materials are easier to share than people, who are gonna be too busy advising us to be full time teachers.

But experts give short-term ability to better handle old tech and pass on a bit of knowing what to do. Albeit without actual books and textbooks and such, how much will pass on without mutations is a qurstion indeed.
 
@PoptartProdigy

Is this description of the organization of the Victorian Army still accurate?
"But the gist of it is simple, as plans in war must be," I continued. "We will have three types of forces. The first will be active-duty, mobile forces. We want to have the two regiments of light armor, plus one heavy armor regiment with the T-34s. With those will be three regiments of motorized infantry, in trucks, of three thousand men each.

Each regiment will have some heavy mortars for artillery, but we want to keep the focus on infantry. We want lots of trigger-pullers, not mechanics and communicators and other support personnel."

"They will be the first line of defense. Behind them will stand ten more regiments of light infantry, made up of first-line reservists. They will be subject to call-up in 24 hours. They will be usable anywhere, but long-distance transport will have to be provided with civilian vehicles. Tactically, they'll move on their feet."

"Finally, behind them will stand a universal militia, which will include every male citizen of the Northern Confederation between the ages of 17 and 55. We've got enough AKs and RPGs coming from Russia to give one of each to every militiaman, plus a machine gun and a light mortar to every squad of twelve (three fire teams). They will operate only in their local area, because we can't transport or feed all those folks. But they will form a "web" of resistance to any attacker which will set him up for a counter-attack by our mobile forces and mobilized light infantry."

Edit:
Note that they do seem to have motorized infantry, but that they deliberately have waaaayyyyy too few logistics units, and if this is a staple of Victorian doctrine then a defense in depth like LHB suggested still seems quite viable.
 
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They also suffer from being a motley collection of civilian vehicles instead of using a single, standardized set of vehicles, kit and parts.

I pity the poor bastards who get stuck in Victorian quartermaster duty. Trying to keep at least half a dozen different varieties of random-ass trucks running in rough terrain would be a nightmare for a well-equipped supply corps, nevermind the undermanned skeleton crew the Vickies seem to like using.
 
@PoptartProdigy

Is this description of the organization of the Victorian Army still accurate?


Edit:
Note that they do seem to have motorized infantry, but that they deliberately have waaaayyyyy too few logistics units, and if this is a staple of Victorian doctrine then a defense in depth like LHB suggested still seems quite viable.
It is still broadly accurate, although with the purge of hardcore ideologues in government, there have been attempts at reform. You hear that there have been discussions on upgrading to T-55s, and apparently they're trying to standardize their pickup trucks.
They also suffer from being a motley collection of civilian vehicles instead of using a single, standardized set of vehicles, kit and parts.

I pity the poor bastards who get stuck in Victorian quartermaster duty. Trying to keep at least half a dozen different varieties of random-ass trucks running in rough terrain would be a nightmare for a well-equipped supply corps, nevermind the undermanned skeleton crew the Vickies seem to like using.
Not to mention the seething contempt Rumford encouraged for rear-echelon forces.
 
Okay, so, first point at which it appears we disagree - I consider the US military's cultural status to be a significant problem. Among other things, it makes legitimate criticism of the military and/or attempts to reduce its (massively bloated) funding needlessly difficult.

There is a public arena where criticism can be leveled against the military: the Armed Forces Committee within the Congress. More than that, the Secretary of Defense is a civilian. (Or they should be, I don't think there's a rule against retiring a general then immediately having him/her get assigned as SecDef.) There is a feedback system and checks on power implicit with these caveats. However, that brings us to the disadvantage inherent with a small, sometimes uninformed (read, unduly influenced by third parties) minority in such a role, the bloated funding you mentioned.

I am, personally, of the opinion that if the military requires an artillery gun, they should get an artillery gun, and you can take that to the logical conclusion. What I am not pleased by is when third-party Military-Industrial Complex corporations pull a fast one to artificially boost the military budget. Consider the F-35 by Lockheed-Martin. Whew, it has VTOL capabilities, how nice! It doesn't fight like a Hornet, it doesn't ground-attack like an A-10. This isn't a result of respecting the US military as an institution, this is the result of putting politicians, desperate for campaign funds from "donaters" and vulnerable to the wiles of lobbyists, in charge of how the military spends its budget. Now, you and I could have it both ways here. The simple solution to the problem above would be to have Congress appoint, rather than members of their own body, experts on matters of national-security in a similar way that they appoint federal judges. You get the logic-based feedback system, I get the corruption-resistant (not invulnerable, but at least they're not up for election) council of scientists of the field of ass-kickery.

Also, I feel like it's worth mentioning that the US spends only five percent of its GDP on military matters. To put this into perspective, America used 45% of its GDP to fight World War II.

Not to mention the seething contempt Rumford encouraged for rear-echelon forces.

Mmf. Reminds me of the Imperial Japanese Army. Not a good comparison. During World War II, an American combatant could expect to have no less than eleven more service members providing him support. The Japanese soldier could expect precisely one person dedicated to supporting him... Speaking of which, what do the military institutions of this new Japanese Empire look like? Are they still prone to getting 95% of their officers gunned down in banzai charges?
 
From a mechanical standpoint, I'd actually argue for taking The Greatest Sin, Universities, and Technological Conservatism.

Greatest Sin is an action sink, but it's mitigated by Good Security and goes away after we catch the assassin; if we take Efficient Bureaucracy, we have a pool of replacements.

Technological Conservatism prevents broad-based adoption of... foreign goodies, and tech we weren't going to be able to field for thirty years anyway. Since we want careful government regulation of this sort of thing regardless, I see this as an undercosted 3 CP option.


As for Universities over Libraries... human capital takes thirty years to train. Books we can buy from New York or California.
 
I'd take Libraries over universities. Widespread literacy is more important than having a few experts; it means we'll have a broader pool of people power to draw on who can do technical/educated jobs.
 
Mmf. Reminds me of the Imperial Japanese Army. Not a good comparison. During World War II, an American combatant could expect to have no less than eleven more service members providing him support. The Japanese soldier could expect precisely one person dedicated to supporting him... Speaking of which, what do the military institutions of this new Japanese Empire look like? Are they still prone to getting 95% of their officers gunned down in banzai charges?
The very specific series of cultural upheavals and military trials that led to that tactic has not recurred. The modern IJA is a professional, albeit small, military with excellent logistics, equipment, and training. Imperial or not, they remain a post-modern Japan, and are capable of fielding very effective troops.

The new IJN is very effective as well, thanks to them befriending instead of alienating trading partners capable of supplying the necessary resources. Overall, a fearsome force at sea.

That said, they remain a Japan going up against a unified China.
 
Libraries gives us a literate population. I dont want a fucking priest-technician caste surfing atop a sea of illiterate peasants.

An educated and literate population is key to a prosperous and stable democracy. I'm not throwing that away so that we can have a few hundred seventy and eighty year olds that die after teaching half of what they know to the next generation. Having those experts really only helps us long term if they have a base of educated and literate citizens to operate from. Otherwise anything they attempt to pass on is going to start from literally ABCs.
 
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Libraries gives us a literate population. I dont want a fucking priest-technician caste surfing atop a sea of illiterate peasants.

An educated and literate population is key to a prosperous and stable democracy. I'm not throwing that away so that we can have a few hundred seventy and eighty year olds that die after teaching half of what they know to the next generation. Having those experts really only helps us long term if they have a base of educated and literate citizens to operate from. Otherwise anything they attempt to pass on is going to start from literally ABCs.

Both adult and childhood literacy programs are going to benefit a lot from people who have been trained, and retain the knowledge, in how to run early childhood education and adult literacy programs. Experts isn't just technocrats -- it's the outreach programs and access to a homegrown intellectual tradition that I don't think it's going to be easy to replace.
 
Both adult and childhood literacy programs are going to benefit a lot from people who have been trained, and retain the knowledge, in how to run early childhood education and adult literacy programs. Experts isn't just technocrats -- it's the outreach programs and access to a homegrown intellectual tradition that I don't think it's going to be easy to replace.

Then we get both.

But we dont a free literate population. And notably "Universities" is just university faculty. Libraries are infrastructure.
 
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