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I figure They're a shield that we hide behind while we furiously organize a durable citizen army, and the strong economy behind that, which can resist indefinitely.
 
Instead of turtling, we should expand, establish trade routes, and open waterways for potential foreign assistance? We can't exactly turtle due to lacking so many key resources for industry. A the minimum we'd need the Great Lakes region including parts of Canada, as well as a chunk of the American breadbasket.
 
I figure They're a shield that we hide behind while we furiously organize a durable citizen army, and the strong economy behind that, which can resist indefinitely.
I'd like to think of our initial military forces as Explosive Reactive Armor. They provide significant additional protection to us, but unless we have something worthwhile behind the armor they can and will be expended, and then we will die.
 
Instead of turtling, we should expand, establish trade routes, and open waterways for potential foreign assistance? We can't exactly turtle due to lacking so many key resources for industry. A the minimum we'd need the Great Lakes region including parts of Canada, as well as a chunk of the American breadbasket.

If we play our cards right we might not need a ground based military force to secure that, merely trade and diplomacy, where the Old Guards are a shield to allow that to happen. Culture hug, not invasions.
 
I am banking on victoria not coming at us out the gate and us being able to train up our forces. Poptart said that it'll train really quickly.
We have the victorian attention downside. They'll be coming at us turn 4 at the latest, and possibly even turn 1. Are you prepared to deal with them right off the bat?
 
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Established is a must have. Unless folks are willing to sink in however many actions are needed to get established the hard way. Which comes with the chances for failure and the attendant game over.

With Old Guard winning we can't afford to add a potential game over crisis on top of our load.

Edit: Established and Revivalist Connections will help a lot with diplomancing our nearby neighbors.
 
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If we play our cards right we might not need a ground based military force to secure that, merely trade and diplomacy, where the Old Guards are a shield to allow that to happen. Culture hug, not invasions.

Who would you negotiate with? That area is mad max. There might be a few warlords and the like, but I'm not really a fan of working with those.
 
Established is a must have

Yeah everyone is forgetting how much we need established in our CP plan. Besides the fact that it would take several turns for us to get the government up and running Poptart said he would be majorly pissed off at us for making him go through government creation for nothing. I would rather not antagonize the QM this early in the quest.
 
Who would you negotiate with? That area is mad max. There might be a few warlords and the like, but I'm not really a fan of working with those.

Warlords can choose to work with batshit insane Vicky or trade pushing democracy, either way we have to get more population for everything (mostly taxes).
 
Established is a must have. Unless folks are willing to sink in however many actions are needed to get established the hard way. Which comes with the chances for failure and the attendant game over.

With Old Guard winning we can't afford to add a potential game over crisis on top of our load.

Edit: Established and Revivalist Connections will help a lot with diplomancing our nearby neighbors.
Yeah everyone is forgetting how much we need established in our CP plan. Besides the fact that it would take several turns for us to get the government up and running Poptart said he would be majorly pissed off at us for making him go through government creation for nothing. I would rather not antagonize the QM this early in the quest.
Every section here would take actions to get otherwise, some of them even more than established, claiming that established is uniquely bad in that regard is kind of begging the question.
 
I would like any plan that gets voted in to at least have rails, as while we do have a lot of rivers. We kinda dont have any oil for trucks. And with local deposits we will probably never have enough for the civilian economy. So we are going to at least need trains to haul the large amount of goods we make. And to haul the resources to feed our production.
 
I'd argue that any level of "reverence" for a professional military is at best the start of a very dangerous road.

Let's define "reverence," in this context. The base definition to "revere" something is to view something with admiration and/or great respect. In fact, this is the attitude the populace of the United States holds towards its military now. I dunno if other countries have this policy, but for those who don't know, members of the US military can expect a discount for most services and products in the private sector. Furthermore, US servicemen and women tend to shake a lot of hands. Admiration and respect. Considering the harrowing experience of combat, the mental scars and severed limbs that accompany it, it's reasonable to assume that service members of any nation deserve something for the sacrifice in time, limb, and life they give to their cause. (There are, of course, exceptions. The militias in Rwanda, the forces present in the Balkan War, etc.)

I understand, however, that @Rat King was making the assertion that militarism of any flavor was anathema to a healthy, democratic state, which doesn't necessarily translate into opposition to my own assertion above. Considering that I've seen a few unabashedly left-wing posters here, I wanted to see if Rat King would agree with the previous paragraph's sentiment. Now, I replied to that assertion with a request for clarification, primarily because I fundamentally disagree with the notion that a democracy or representative republic is mutually exclusive with a strong military that sees moderate use, but I didn't want to misinterpret Rat King's own assertion into a straw man.

I, once again, use the US of A's military as an example, specifically the carrier groups and attached MEUs she has in each sea. During the tsunamis that hit Japan like a meteor in 2011, the 11th MEU was on-site providing humanitarian aid. Positive contribution of a professional fighting force. During Hurricane Katrina, the legendary 82nd Airborne Division provided humanitarian aid to the American populace struck by the storm. This one directly benefited the populace that division is supported by. Even the National Guard, operated by State governments and consisting of troops that only exercise (barring disasters or attack) on the weekend, is a highly centralized and purpose-malleable force capable of responding to anything from natural disaster to suppression of riots. (Baltimore, in 2015. The protests were reasonable, the rioting that followed was not.)

Let us, for the fun of it, go with a more extreme example of militarism from a domestic perspective, but not as excessively as, say, Starship Troopers. Let's say that there was some form of introduction to military thought to students in high school on a nationally mandated level. The US actually has something like this, the JROTC at the high school level, but it's not required. Let's say it is, in this example of extended militarism. This certainly goes further than the two-year compulsory service some European countries require. (Sweden, a fairly forward-thinking liberal democracy, due to some Russians with Rusting Rockets.)

Consider, however, the positives of this experience. Let's say a student decides to study in an Armored Course. This would impart basic knowledge of automobiles and their machinery, paving the way for a civilian, mechanic or heavy machinery career. This theoretical student's mind has been enriched and their opportunities expanded. Taken to its logical conclusion, you would find yourself with students whose knowledge of First Aid, leadership, physics, cybersecurity, and maybe even aviation provides them with a foot in the door in the civilian world. There would always be a steady-stream of workers with valuable skills in important sectors of the market, and you would have a trained general populace to resist foreign invasion to boot! Ancient Athens wishes it could have this democracy.

This doesn't really have an effect on the quest. I don't intend on championing the curriculum brainstormed above. I simply felt that discussing militarism is a healthy thing to do in the context of the quest, especially considering we haven't quite come to a consensus on how to use our military and leverage Burns's perks and baggage in relation to any independent states or settlements we might stumble on... Probably not too healthy, considering I wrote this out an hour and change past midnight.

Our coalition would be rife with bickering and its extreme wings would hate each other, while we would gain no more of a crushing dominant majority in the legislature than we already have anyway for practical purposes.

"Bickering." Kinda harsh, considering these same factions were able to get through the Chicago Accords relatively amicably. Regardless, I disagree on the basis that winning that roll would have likely granted us Legitimacy thanks to the appearance of a highly operable political system. Considering the chief member of the coalition would also be an ideological middle-man, (Social Democratic thought is the true radical centrism!) bipartisan solutions and political goodwill would create both a stable foundation and a good precedent. Of course, I doubt the coalition could've lasted forever, but it would have been an auspicious start.

I am banking on victoria not coming at us out the gate and us being able to train up our forces. Poptart said that it'll train really quickly.

US Marines train for thirteen weeks, twelve if you shave off the Crucible (which is basically a reaffirmation of everything that you would be taught at that point) so you could have two batches of roughly, basically trained Marines by the time the first turn ends. The Air Force (until very recently) basically trained its Airmen for six weeks, so you could have a shit-ton more roughly, basically trained Airmen by the time Victoria's minimum time-table for engagement rolls around. But those are very old training institutions, and most of the guys who participated in them are dead or too old to do much with it.
 
Welp, couldn't sleep.
I dunno. Actual human expertise is incredibly hard to build from scratch. Keeping that expertise might be essential to building our economic power. If you can think of a good flaw to pick instead of incompetent military then I'm all ears.
I think the disadvantages of Incompetent Military when we face immediate attack are probably great enough that we'd be better off sacrificing Rail Companies. Yes, we'll have to expend action-economy actions to build up the railroads, but we'd also have to expend action-economy actions to deal with the consequences of an utterly untrained military such that there is only a single HERO CORPS unit capable of fighting effectively.

Isn't part of the great lakes under victorian control?

They hold the east end of Lake Erie (around Buffalo, New York). The entirety of Lakes Michigan, Huron, and Erie are interconnected and a ship can sail from one to another easily, though there are chokepoints at Detroit between Lake Erie and Lake Huron, and at the Strait of Mackinac between Lake Huron and Lake Michigan.

I would like any plan that gets voted in to at least have rails, as while we do have a lot of rivers. We kinda dont have any oil for trucks. And with local deposits we will probably never have enough for the civilian economy. So we are going to at least need trains to haul the large amount of goods we make. And to haul the resources to feed our production.
We're going to need a rail network, but we can only afford so many things at game start. If the price of having a good rail network is so fatally weakening our defenses that the Victorians manage to slip right through or something, it may not be worth it.
 
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We're going to need a rail network, but we can only afford so many things at game start. If the price of having a good rail network is so fatally weakening our defenses that the Victorians manage to slip right through or something, it may not be worth it.
The issue is that we need the rail network for most industrial build ups, as most rescorces are inland and we dont have any fuel oil. And we dont even know if Victorian intervention would be a military attack.
 
The issue is that we need the rail network for most industrial build ups, as most rescorces are inland and we dont have any fuel oil.
I mean.

I'm sure there will be industrial expansion options gated behind "build up the railroads" if we don't take Railroad Companies.

But there will also be "defend yourself" options gated behind "train up the military" if we do take Incompetent Military.

We have explicitly chosen the game start option that brings us into direct conflict with our main antagonist as early as possible. It would be unwise to take large maluses that will compromise our ability to deal with the antagonist when they arrive.

And we dont even know if Victorian intervention would be a military attack.
If we don't prepare against a military attack, the Victorians would be fools not to launch a military attack. Let's not make it any easier for the bastards than it has to be.
 
Then why not take something like my proposal, it takes rail without incompetant military?
 
[] Plan Navy and Economy

Old Guard(4CP)
Military
+Old World Equipment
+Old World Soldiers
+Professionals Study Logistics
+Brown Water Navy(-2CP)

Diplomacy
-Victorian Attention

Intelligence
+Good Security (-1 CP)
-Disastrous Start (1CP)

Economy
+Independent Merchants(-2CP)
+Vaccines(-3CP)
-Population boom(2CP)
-Disunited Currency(3CP)

Science
+Libraries(-2CP)

I dearly want to take Established and railroads but there's just no good trade off that I'm willing to take.

So, in this build we have a good navy and good ability to ply the river trade for stuff that we need. We will have a lot of internal trouble unfortunately, but Good Security helps with internal problems. But our ability to use foreign intelligence will be highly limited.

Merchants and Vaccines will help with fulfilling our healthcare compromise with the Socialists.

Libraries will be very useful. And Good Security helps with keeping someone from trying to sneak in to burn them.
 
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I dunno. Actual human expertise is incredibly hard to build from scratch. Keeping that expertise might be essential to building our economic power. If you can think of a good flaw to pick instead of incompetent military then I'm all ears.

I would honestly caution against the idea of the usage of Incompetent Military as a freebie even despite our Old Guard starting point. Not just because I am of the opinion that military expertise itself at least worthy of being a skilled trade in and of itself, but also that the trait will imply grave systematic problems that will take liters of blood to throw off. Here is a passage from Anthony Beevor's The Battle for Spain, which is about the Spanish Civil War of the 1930s (which I find to be incredibly applicable to our current situation if it ever comes to force on force confrontations):

Article:
Meanwhile, on the northern axis of advance Colonel Yagüe's force was organized in five self-contained columns of some 1,500 men each, with legionnaires and regulares mounted in requisitioned lorries and accompanied by 75mm artillery. They were supported by Savoia Marchetti 81s, piloted by Italians in Legion uniform, and Junkers 52s flown by Luftwaffe personnel. Yagüe struck due north into Estremadura, maintaining a momentum of advance exceeded only by the armoured punches of 1940. His tactics were simple and effective. The lorry-borne force rushed up the main road at full speed until resistance was encountered at a town or village. (No ambushes were made in the open country because the inhabitants wanted to defend their homes and needed the feeling of security which walls gave.) The nationalists would order surrender over loudhailers provided by the Germans. All doors and windows were to be left open and white flags hung on every house. If there was no reply, or firing, then the troops would dismount and launch a rapid pincer attack.

Concentrations of defenders provided ideal targets for professional troops with artillery backed by bombers. Mobile groups would have inflicted higher casualties and delayed the nationalists' advance more effectively. Once a village was captured, the ensuing massacre was supposed to be a reprisal for 'red' killings., but it was utterly indiscriminate. Queipo de Llano claimed that '80 per cent of Andalucian families are in mourning, and we shall not hesitate to have recourse to sterner measures'.

The nationalist attack demonstrated the psychological vulnerability of the worker militias. In street fighting, caught up in collective bravery, they were courageous to a foolhardy degree. But in the open the shelling and bombing were usually too much for them, since they refused to dig trenches (Irún was an outstanding exception). 'The Spanish are too proud to dig into the ground,' Largo Caballero later declared to the communist functionary Mije.8 Most of the bombs dropped were, in fact, almost useless, but the enemy aircraft were skilfully handled, causing maximum terror to peasants who had little experience of modern technology. Also, having no idea of how to prepare a defensive position, the militiamen had a desperate fear of finding themselves facing the Moors' knives alone. Outflanking movements which surprised them usually led to a panic-stricken stampede. Chaos was increased when the population of a village clogged the roads with their carts and donkeys as they too fled from the colonial troops. Sometimes they even seized the militias' lorries for themselves. On the other hand, the nationalist tactic of terror provoked heroism as well as flight. Peasants, having seen their families on their way, would take up shotguns or abandoned rifles and return to die in their pueblo.

By 10 August Yagüe's force had advanced more than 300 kilometres to Mérida. Just south of the town at the Roman bridge over the River Guadiana, Asensio's forces met fierce opposition. The defence committee of the town was organized by Anita López, who greatly encouraged the ferocious resistance. She was among those killed when Yagüe's troops finally entered the town that night and carried out a fearful massacre.9 The next day the bulk of the Mérida militia counter-attacked with the aid of a strong detachment of assault guards and civil guards sent from Madrid. Yagüe left part of his force to hold them off while he advanced due west on Badajoz, on the Portuguese border. Franco had insisted on this diversion from the main axis. Apart from not wanting to leave an enemy strongpoint behind his line of advance, he wished to demonstrate that the northern and southern parts of the nationalist zone were now linked.
Source: The Battle for Spain


Despite the fact that such a mundane structure has dominated the imagination of what 21st century Westerners think of the First World War, the idea of implementing such defensive structures did not occur to the militia who fought in the early period of the Spanish Civil War 18 years after the Great War with grave consequences for the Republicans involved. And since our recruits are raised in conditions more similar to those of the early 20th century Spaniard, it'll be likely that we'll be facing the same morale and training woes that the Spanish Republicans have to deal with in the 1930s.

Astute readers will have probably noticed that the Nationalist force that was overrunning much of northern Republican Spain is only a hair larger than our Old World battalion and with much worse equipment too. They didn't have any armored fighting vehicles, no body armor or any other advanced infantry equipment, and their main transport of choice were appropriated civilian transports. They are not at all equivalent to the German Panzer divisions so famous in WW2 yet they still pulled off such a stunning advance.

So if we ever take incompetent military, then we must go in eyes wide open that this will definitely result in a bloodbath.
 
[x][BOSS] The Old Guard: You have fought in parts of the world most Americans haven't even seen. You unit returned home in the wake of the Collapse, and you've been wandering the country ever since. You fought for the New American Confederation, Cascadia, and the Pacific Republic in turn. Your commanding officer died in California, and you took command. Your unit has been fighting the Victorians ever since, striking from the shadows and desperately keeping their weaponry maintained. You were young when your war started...now you're old. So damn old. But the fight's just kicking up. You're not done yet. You cleared the southern tip of the Lake of Victorian eyes. Time to get ready to strike a stronger blow against the bastards

[X][BOSS] The Last Echo: You were chosen as Secretary of State by a woman who had been Speaker of the House before those before her in the line of succession died in transit to a safe location amid the chaos of the Collapse. You were confirmed by the last Congress of the United States minutes later. You served your President for years before a Russian assassin killed her and most of her cabinet, and you took up her role. By the slimmest of technicalities and a lot of bluffing, you hold a position that grants you precedence in the eyes of many. You convinced Chicago to call the Congress; you presided. It has been years, and you have been hunted for all of them. You have no room left in your heart for nostalgia. This country is a broken thing. No matter how much it must change, you will see it fixed and better than before. And once you serve a country that deserves the pride of the United States, you will tear Alexander from his throne.
 
[X][BOSS] The Last Echo: You were chosen as Secretary of State by a woman who had been Speaker of the House before those before her in the line of succession died in transit to a safe location amid the chaos of the Collapse. You were confirmed by the last Congress of the United States minutes later. You served your President for years before a Russian assassin killed her and most of her cabinet, and you took up her role. By the slimmest of technicalities and a lot of bluffing, you hold a position that grants you precedence in the eyes of many. You convinced Chicago to call the Congress; you presided. It has been years, and you have been hunted for all of them. You have no room left in your heart for nostalgia. This country is a broken thing. No matter how much it must change, you will see it fixed and better than before. And once you serve a country that deserves the pride of the United States, you will tear Alexander from his throne.
 
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