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Just a nitpick.
Unless this timeline gave us a FB-22, the raptor is the most useless US jet plane we can hope to have.
It is a literal 2000 plane that even now is facing obsolenece in 2040. That's 30 years obsolete.
While they have been assiduously well maintained, the fact remains that their awesome kinematics is risky to pull off due to sheer age and fatigue. And we can't throw bombs with it.
So, in it's intended role, well, California and Victoria are the only powers to have an opponent we can fight. And even for Victoria, well, we shattered them badly.
Think of the F22 raptor the same way colonial airpowers thought of the Hawker Hurricane or Hawker Hunter. The first step.
Som.its kinda easy for me to
[] Yes. Gain one success on Source Foreign Arms. Gain an amount of mismatched assortment of last-generation materiel of dubious maintenance records with no parts or ammunition support, as sellers can get them to you.
We ALREADY in this scenario. We need to expand or secure supplies so as to prepare insitutional knowledge and our airforce is working with 70 year old planes.
Most of this is inaccurate.
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Yes, the Raptor is a 1980s concept that was designed in the 1990s and built in the 2000s. Thats how most AF projects work. The B2 bomber is a 1970s design built in the 1980s for example. Even today, the United States is explicitly unwilling to export the F22 or its technologues, even when the Japanese are willing to pay for it.
The F35 refines some of its tricks and implements them in a less costly manner, but its still a terrifying plane.
And with everyone stuck in 5th gen for the last half century, it should be just fine with some TLC and modern weapons.
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The F22 was designed with a service life of 8,000 hours, and just underwent a maintenance and SLEP program at Ogden AFB, Utah in 2021 to extend its service life by another 8,000 flight hours. Thats a fifty three year lifespan if you average 300 flight hours a year.
These planes have spent the last thirty years in a hangar. Airframe wear is of limited concern, and SLEP programs are a thing.
Seriously, the USAF wants to fly them until 2060, even with NGAD on the horizon.
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And no, in air to surface mode the F22 can carry 2x 1000 pound JDAMs or 8x 250-pound SDBs in addition to a brace of AIM-120s.
There's four additional hardpoints on the wings that can carry another 2.3 tons or so, but carrying stores there breaks stealth.
Its designed to be a stealthy air superiority fighter, but its not incapable against ground targets.
I would prefer 100x F16s to 4x F22s, but thats a numbers thing.
Make it 20 Raptors, and I'd probably take the Raptors.
There's no way in hell anyone of us can make a Air superiority fighter.
Making the F35 would be the most extreme and even here, that's only if California managed to hide it.
The F35 would be even less survivable than the F22 due to its lousy kinematics, assuming that 2070 advanced sensors/computing will beat 70 year old stealth models.
1)California explicitly operates F35s. Openly.
They did so during the Pacific War, they did so during the recent rebellion when the intervention forces called for air support.
They build the things.
2)Yeah, I strongly disagree.
For one thing, nobody is dogfighting except in extremis. Modern air warfare does not operate that way.
For another, we have actually had real life testing of F35s in dogfights, and while they arent F22s, they are perfectly fine performers.
Turns out that while you will outperform a Panther in a clean F15 or F16, as soon as you actually begin to hang weapons or other stores on the teen fighters their maneuverability gets significantly worse, while that of the F35 remains the same.
Plus, the F35 has much more fuel. Which means a lot more time at afterburner.
I mean sure, Paris is burning but nice thing about Dasaault is you can set up in Germany.
Note though that the amount of plot armor means in theory, we should be discussing a 7th gen airframe as modern..
Officially and in our lore, California was forced by Victoria to make f16s only.
It's a question of how California was able to sneak F35 past Russian, Japanese and Victorian eyes if California is making F35.
The Collapse fucked with general technological advancement except in a few focused areas; fighter aircraft was not one of them, which has allowed most powers to more or less achieve technological parity here. Sixth gen aircraft are only beginning to show up now in-quest; the GM didnt say if they're just entering testing or actually entering service.
FCAS is a sixth generation fighter program. It will be in the same state as other sixth gen programs.
Anyway, most of NATO operates F35s, and many of the parts suppliers are in Europe. Odds are they just operated F35 variants for the last thirty years or so.
2) California made downgraded F16s for Victoria, and much better F16s for export to people who wanted a cheap affordable fighter and werent allergic to technology. We dont know if they exported them, but the Cali Air Force operates F35s, and has done so for forty years. Even in the background lore, you'll see mention of Manly Men in Victorian F16s duelling Azanian F35s.
nah, I still think "nothing" is better, because we can retry next turn and it CAN'T be worse than this. We'll just have to prioritize military a bit more
Depends on the exact options available next turn, but I think putting 1-2 free AP into the military is very realistic, if not outright required. I would like to finish officer academies very soon, preferably next turn. We needed the additional domestic and diplomatic investment, but this obviously can't be done every turn.
Well, that's a problem too, but it's not the MAIN problem.
The main problem is that NOBODY is manufacturing replacement parts or more of it later, so we'd waste a lot of training on equipment that will only be used for a very short period by only a small part of our army.
The actual problem is that we would be spending limited foreign exchange on acquiring and training on obsolete crap.
Which leaves less money and resources to buy actual good weapons when they come available. There is only so much you can do with obsolete stuff when your opponent is decades ahead; just ask the late, unlamented Victorian tank division.
Or, as I've noted before, you recently annexed Detroit, to whom Victoria gave explicit dispensation to set up large-scale steel refining facilities and heavy industry to serve as a captive market, so that production in Buffalo could focus on products later in the production chain.
And, therefore, you now have a level of steel production vastly outstripping that available to you at the time of the Des Plaines' design.
Thats a LOT more stuff than I was under the impression that Detroit had.
That is VERY welcome news.
Guess Detroit gets the first set of long range air defense systems we can beg, borrow or steal.
Depends on the exact options available next turn, but I think putting 1-2 free AP into the military is very realistic, if not outright required. I would like to finish officer academies very soon, preferably next turn. We needed the additional domestic and diplomatic investment, but this obviously can't be done every turn.
Hmm yeah we do need to see what options are available next turn but I'd still like to put another AP or two into foreign arms sales the sooner that is completed the better for us. But yes there's a lot we need to do.
We are extremely far behind the rest of the world. We won't be making any upgrade anything save for begging assistance from the EU and other alliances against Russia for at least a couple of decades.
The only nation in North America that might be able to even maintain the F-22 long term is California.
Hmm yeah we do need to see what options are available next turn but I'd still like to put another AP or two into foreign arms sales the sooner that is completed the better for us. But yes there's a lot we need to do.
The Collapse fucked with general technological advancement except in a few focused areas; fighter aircraft was not one of them, which has allowed most powers to more or less achieve technological parity here. Sixth gen aircraft are only beginning to show up now in-quest; the GM didnt say if they're just entering testing or actually entering service.
FCAS is a sixth generation fighter program. It will be in the same state as other sixth gen programs.
Anyway, most of NATO operates F35s, and many of the parts suppliers are in Europe. Odds are they just operated F35 variants for the last thirty years or so.
WoG is that sixth-gen aircraft are coming onto the stage in force. That is, mind you, also how I would describe fifth-generation fighters in the world of today. Sixth-gens have been in service for years; what is changing now is that first-rate militaries are beginning to undertake programs to really start phasing out older planes and replace them with new craft.
figured as much given what chat I have seen besides that I want at least one AP into officer academies we'll need a good officer core if we want to beat Victoria.
not if you mean military production. We could start producing munitions for the chinese standard instead of the European standard, or things like that.
Still, we don't lack for things to do. We still have a department expansion to complete, a few failed actions that we can't allow to fail again, and likely a few new options as well. We work on improving what we can while we wait for the actual armament result
Someone of military age, but young enough, and impressionable enough to fall in with a wandering priest without asking questions? Assuming the Vic Army took him at 18, and he's served 3-5 years, we're looking at someone in the 21-23 years range. Barely an adult. And every so often, his mannerisms show it.
[ ] No. Cut your losses and wait for the real arms manufacturers to have their shit sorted out.
My vote is we wait. Untangling the mess of mismatched, poorly maintained, unsupported gear is actually worse than not having it in the first place. This is what we would take if we were desperate- we are not desperate any more.
WoG is that sixth-gen aircraft are coming onto the stage in force. That is, mind you, also how I would describe fifth-generation fighters in the world of today. Sixth-gens have been in service for years; what is changing now is that first-rate militaries are beginning to undertake programs to really start phasing out older planes and replace them with new craft.
Surplus fifth gens being retired should be both easier(and cheaper) to acquire, with military people less likely to get their underwear in a twist about transferring the technology abroad. Also translates to mature maintenance procedures. And importantly, lots of mature fifth gen weapon systems.
Idle question is whether California has a sixth gen program.
Feel free not to answer if it will bunch you in though.
At least it also mentions that future improvements can provide more AP as they get developed. And the political boost isn't anything to sneeze at either. Something to keep in mind if we ever have some free AP to spread around at least
Yeah ok I've been convinced not to get the gear all that'll mean is as some pointed out we redo it next turn and double down on it cause we can't let it fail again.
It's not so bad. Those projects would be under development, the area where we get three AP until hostilities resume and will significantly improve industry and infrastructure. I could barely exaggerate how vital a functioning electricity is for a halfway modern economy.
At least it also mentions that future improvements can provide more AP as they get developed. And the political boost isn't anything to sneeze at either. Something to keep in mind if we ever have some free AP to spread around at least
8 bombs max, with a subsequent decrease in stealth profile., And serious fatigue making the F22 an extremely dangerous plane to fly. Again, the F22 is supposed to be retired by 2040, and no extension of shelf life could had been done.
PainRack, I'm gonna be up front with you, I think these criticisms have passed their "sell by" date. You won't gain anything by repeating yourself. Either Poptart is gonna rule that the planes are actually useless rustbuckets, or Poptart's not. Being salty about it if Poptart implies that the planes are still useful isn't helpful.
I don't disagree with anything you said, but a needless pedantry is itching away.
A 4.5G plane is a new plane. A F16A is itself a different beast when compared to a F16D or later blocks. Subsequent blocks with AESA rader and modern avionics are new planes entirely. Ditto to the F15 and it's F15E or even more modern day variants with AESA radar. It's not just slapping a different sensor on, you actually need to do all the weapons tests over again because new shape and etc may affect whether it's actually safe to fire said weapon.
Yeah, but it's still the result of an iterative design process. The point is that you can't just point to a modern F-16 fresh off the production line and go "yawn, that is a 1980 plane, it must be weak." Because that would be bullshit. Generations of refinements have gone into upgrading the plane and changing it as necessary to remain relevant on a modern battlefield.
In the same way, you cannot, in 2075, point to a recently manufactured F-35 from California or wherever and say "yawn, that's a 2015 plane, it must be weak." It may well be as extensively updated and altered as the F-16 was from 1980 to 2020.
Or, as I've noted before, you recently annexed Detroit, to whom Victoria gave explicit dispensation to set up large-scale steel refining facilities and heavy industry...
Also, I imagine, we now have the means to at least in principle source equipment to recycle large amounts of rusted scrap iron that's just lying around and/or build new steel mills. We couldn't do that until chasing the Vicks out.
And, therefore, you now have a level of steel production vastly outstripping that available to you at the time of the Des Plaines' design.
Yeah. The Des Plaines-class predates Burns' arrival in Chicago; it's a pre-Commonwealth design that was limited to "stuff we can get away with operating without the Vicks murdering us for owning it." Making your gunboat out of wood was a good way to help meet that goal, I imagine.
I'd guess not, because I can't imagine them
1)Having the money for it while under Russia and forced to finance Victoria
AND
2)Russia allowing advanced military tech programs.
They dont finance Victoria, they are forced to sell them planes at a discount.
What California have or dont have is a GM fiat thing, and depends on how the Poptart thinks it will affect the plot more than anything else. But if you asked me me to speculate?
1) The F22 program cost 32 billion for RnD as of 2011.
Add the roughly 4 billion for the 1986-1991 YF22 vs YF23 competition, and you're still at around 36 billion. Thats roughly a billion and half average over twenty four or twenty five years.
For another point of comparison, the F35 program has cost 35 billion in RnD so far as of 2020, and the entire program is estimated to cost 400 billion in total, mostly procurement for three different aircraft variants.
California has a functioning indigenous fifth generation aircraft program, and inherited a good chunk, if not the vast bulk, of the USAF's sixth generation development work and hightech industry.
I think they could afford it, if they saw the need.
But thats my speculation.
2)As for Russian permission, if they could forbid military tech programs and make it stick, Cali would not have F35s.
And much of the initial systems development work, from engines to avionics to computers and software would probably look a lot like upgrades for the F35 program and commissioned upgrades for other aircraft. Or even new UCAV drones for the export market.
But again, my speculation.
Anyway, its worth remembering the original YF22 and YF23 were designed and flew in less than 50 months.
And most fifthgen dev work has been done in peacetime, under very little pressure of Great Power competition. In a different political environment, I think dev work for new aircraft is likely to be much faster, especially with better software modelling available.
Frankly, if Cali went from late model F35s in 2076 to flying its first F37s in 2080, I would not be at all surprised.
en.m.wikipedia.org
