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Using The Force Made Easy

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Zealous Specter said:
That is still really, really hard to believe, and is straining against the sense of disbelief in this story. Unless the MC has another force user he's spars with occasionally, that we just aren't aware of yet. Kenobi's experience alone would beat any advantage the MC could potently have with his sports incorporated saber style. Like the MC never even became a Padawan, or had experience fighting others with lightsabers since he left the order that we are aware of.
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DestinyPlayer said:
To fight the enemy, you must know the enemy. And yet, at the same time, it can be said that fighting the enemy also causes you to know the enemy.


I think that Obi-Wan meant that the MC would probably beat most other Jedi Knights. Kenobi is a bit of an exception.
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@DestinyPlayer has the right of it.

John surprised Obi-wan and got a few hits in early in their spar which had it been a real fight? First one to land a decent hit is the most likely to win if the fight drags on past that point. At this point Kenobi should be one of the best duelists in the Order barring Windu, Yoda Duku and a Few other tallented individuels who no doubt exist but aren't as well know to people like me who haven't gotten very into the EU. This is especially true because a good percentage of the order are not combat specialists.

now neither were treating it like a death match so yeah Kenobi would be more serious going into that fight under different circumstances, and now that Kenobi knows how John fights he could likely shut him down before it turns into an endurance contest which he knows John would win. But he also knows John hasn't shown every trick up his sleeve and surprise in a fight can seriously tip the odds. Kenobi knows he's one of the best and he still got tagged by John. If John pulled out all the stops on someone less skilled who hadn't gotten his measure before?

Also note that I said a match for. Maybe this wasn't the best way to phrase it but to me a match for is another way of saying on the same level as or maybe just slightly better than. That's not to say he would blow them out of the water. It's him saying it would be a close fight and he thinks John could at the very least escape.

and...
Zysek said:
It's been a while since I read this, but I think he spent some time wandering through smaller Force sects? He could have very well learned some lightsaber skills from them, which combined with natural talent and the unfamiliarity of his style could surprise Obi Wan.

If he's been following Matukai's teachings, those allow the practictioner to qualitatively improve their bodies even without using the force, which could also be a factor. Differences in athleticism can make up for a surprising lot in a battle, especially since they had not sparred before.

It is still a little hard to believe though, I'll admit.
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Yeah john is a bit faster and stronger thanks to Matukai training and that extra speed certainly helps with his chosen style.
Mirriam Grave said:
I agree with this point-of-view, but throw in the fact that Kenobi, for all that he is as capable of daring-do as Anakin, is a being of CAUTION.
He will ALWAYS OVER estimate his opposition than UNDER estimate them.
Will Obi-Wan win? Honestly? From what we have seen, I would put the odds at somewhere to 1 to 3. The only advantages that the MC has are Surprise (Using techniques, mainly Force Ones, that Obi-Wan has no idea even exist.) and Endurance (Already shown to have a much higher one than Obi-Wan, so if he doesn't manage to take out Obi in a quick surprise attack, and doesn't get taken out in turn, his best bet is tiring Obi-Wan down.). Neither of which are easy against Obi-Wan, since he IS a, despite his claims at focusing on Diplomacy, a Martial Focused Jedi thanks to his experiences.
Remember, this is PRIOR to the Clone Wars, THIS Obi-Wan is NOT NEARLY as experienced as THAT one. Non-the-less, Obi-Wan is in the top percentile of Jedi when it comes to sheer Chaos Magnet, and it has given him an Edge over most of his compatriots when it comes to experience and overcoming odds, usually of the unplanned and unseen variety.
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Nods* yeah Obi-wan is seriously good and now that he has John's measure John's best bet is honestly to escape if it comes down to it.
 
Ahh thank you for the update was worried this story died, it has a extremely interesting concept and can't wait to see more.

A big part of me want the main character to be a bad ass on the level of a dark lord but more likely he's just a guy trying to give the force to the galaxy which is awesome. However unlike the sith and Jedi he's been experimenting with the force who knows what abilities he's picked up on his travels. Sadly I don't think we're going to see a clear progression on the galactic state for many chapters yet. And the sith will try to silence him sooner or latter they DONT want force ablity to become common place.
 
When it comes to the Kenobi versus MC debate I would like to point out one very important fact. This isn't dragon Ball, power level doesn't decide fights. It is true people are stronger with the force than other people but when to force users duel in lightsaber combat it's essentially a sword fight. What this means is you have to take in skill, circumstance, luck, goals.

What this means is that it's a more nuanced topic with a thousand different outcomes. Especially considering that kinobe and the mc are close in average skill level.
 
Just wanted to throw out one more anecdote on the value of surprise in combat. Just to really explain why I'm placing so much value on an unusual style and a few unknown tricks.

when I fenced I was decent. USFA ranks people from I want to say D to A rank. How the rankings get assigned is a little bit bullshit and luck actually plays a role in it. Long story short I never got ranked. However I beat one A rank fencer handily in a 15 point bout and against a different A rank only scored 3 points in a 15 point bout. The difference in skill can be dramatic. But if you met enough people a rough estimate of skill started to shake out in your head. I was roughly speaking a low end C rank in terms of skill when I was wrapping up my last season in high school.

so I was pretty good especially by high school team standards.

one day I was practicing against this girl from my school who was a freshman first year fencer, and she scored 4 consecutive points on me Because it took me that long to figure out just what the hell she was doing. It was a weird random little trick that anyone with experience would have called a stupid idea and I had never seen it before. Once I figured it out it never worked again and I came back from 4-0 and won 4-5 because it was the only trick in her arsenal at the time and skill difference accounted for everything else. had that been an actual sword fight she would have killed me because she got the first hit in. And the next three as well.

later in the year I was fencing an A rank fencer at states. He was mopping the floor with me. Nothing I did had an impact. kid was just too good, too fast. I just didn't stack up. This is the guy I only scored 3 points against. One of those points was scored by taking that random quirky little trick that girl had nearly beat me with and using it on this guy. He figured it out after only seeing it once, but it still blindsided him that first time.

that's the value of surprise in a fight. Surprise can negate even the biggest differences in skill for a brief moment and in a death match thats all it takes.
 
Turns out there's a reason for the saying 'the best swordsman isn't worried about the next best swordsman, the best swordsman is worried about the idiot who just picked up a sword, because he can predict the next best swordsman, but the rookie may decide to do anything no matter how stupid'.
 
Hazard said:
Turns out there's a reason for the saying 'the best swordsman isn't worried about the next best swordsman, the best swordsman is worried about the idiot who just picked up a sword, because he can predict the next best swordsman, but the rookie may decide to do anything no matter how stupid'.
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Heh, yeah that saying has a lot more truth to it than people realize. Granted the best swordsman will usually still win because if nothing else they are faster. But yeah you can never be sure what novices and idiots will do. Had one underclassman actually do a lunging bellyflop in an attempt to get a point in without getting hit. Yeah the ref was not happy with him.
 
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle"
-Sun Tzu

This basically, the MC knows the jedi forms (even if he isnt very good at them, he would know the basis all 6/7 basic saber forms, form 7 vaa'pad is a sub-type is only know by Mace Windu and select few Masters). Whule the Jedi would have no idea of what his fencing is.
 
Fencer said:
At this point Kenobi should be one of the best duelists in the Order barring Windu, Yoda Duku and a Few other tallented individuels who no doubt exist but aren't as well know to people like me who haven't gotten very into the EU. This is especially true because a good percentage of the order are not combat specialists.
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I'll point out he isn't that good yet. Mid/Late Clone Wars, yes. But at this point he has a decade of peace and a war's less of experience than that point.
He does have more experience with the dark side than most, but for outright dueling skill there's probably dozens in the Order who can beat him at the moment - a number which will fall year by year.
 
It would be interesting to see what Dooku's thoughts are on the videos, because isn't this the time period when he has left the order and is considering the dark side. I wonder if he would watch them and come to the same thoughts.
 
Zealous Specter said:
While I agree that surprise can be a factor, especilly for non force useers. But a Jedi's precognition during combat kinda warns them of surprise dangers like that. And it's not really that much of a surprise development when fencing is already a really popular thing for an entire sector Lightfoil/Legends especily for the Jedi.
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Eh, if a trick takes someone more than one strike to figure out, then precognition actually might not be that much help.
 
Light said:
Eh, if a trick takes someone more than one strike to figure out, then precognition actually might not be that much help.
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er what are you trying to say? Are you thinking precognition in a duel, would be like them seeing the move an enemy is going to use before they use it? Or get feeling of danger from a direction, and they back off or take a gamble, kinda like spidey sense? The Echani can do it as well, but they use pure instinct instead of the force.
 
Lleh said:
When it comes to the Kenobi versus MC debate I would like to point out one very important fact. This isn't dragon Ball, power level doesn't decide fights. It is true people are stronger with the force than other people but when to force users duel in lightsaber combat it's essentially a sword fight. What this means is you have to take in skill, circumstance, luck, goals.

What this means is that it's a more nuanced topic with a thousand different outcomes. Especially considering that kinobe and the mc are close in average skill level.
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Actually, Lightsaber Duels are usually decided by who is better in three aspects: Their raw mechanical skill with a lightsaber, their ability and training in Force Precognition, and their ability and training in a particular class of Force Powers. That class of force powers includes Force Body, Force Valor, and Enhance Attribute, all of which increase the strength, speed, endurance, reaction time, and so on of the user. That same class would hold most of the Matukai techniques, and the Sith ability to strengthen themselves based on their current pain and rage.
 
Don't forget in a duel between force users, they're actively countering each other's moves that they haven't already made yet. So just having precog doesn't automatically mean you'll stop a trick move when the other guy's also using precog.

Hell, maybe the OC's using a force trick to think of an idea in the future that he doesn't take, so that makes a fake precog trigger for Obi Wan to react to. Once he knew about it it wouldn't work, but the first few times it would.
 
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GamingGeek said:
Don't forget in a duel between force users, they're actively countering each other's moves that they haven't already made yet. So just having precog doesn't automatically mean you'll stop a trick move when the other guy's also using precog.
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Hence why whoever is better in all three aspects is the winner. If you don't know the forms, you can't fight properly. If you don't have the raw physical stats, you will be too weak and slow to beat your enemy. If you don't have strong enough precog, all your moves will be countered before you can even finish thinking of them.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
And some times, it doesn't help that you can see what's going to happen if there's no room for you to do anything about it.
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not see but feel, something similar but not exact would be spidy sense. But with potential directional warnings or feelings about what could happen next.

And if you fighting style relies upon a trick, then the force will know and a force user will know. ofcource it still all depends on their skill level.
 
One thing that I'm really curious about:

How does the existence of the videos – and the resulting "de-mystification" of the Jedi and the Force – affect Sidious' plans?
 
I like how it was Windu who figured out the importance of training to stop using the Dark Side, considering his work on Vapaad that is exactly the sort of thing that he would notice that other Masters (except Yoda, maybe) would miss.

Mirriam Grave said:
I agree with this point-of-view, but throw in the fact that Kenobi, for all that he is as capable of daring-do as Anakin, is a being of CAUTION.
He will ALWAYS OVER estimate his opposition than UNDER estimate them.
Will Obi-Wan win? Honestly? From what we have seen, I would put the odds at somewhere to 1 to 3. The only advantages that the MC has are Surprise (Using techniques, mainly Force Ones, that Obi-Wan has no idea even exist.) and Endurance (Already shown to have a much higher one than Obi-Wan, so if he doesn't manage to take out Obi in a quick surprise attack, and doesn't get taken out in turn, his best bet is tiring Obi-Wan down.). Neither of which are easy against Obi-Wan, since he IS a, despite his claims at focusing on Diplomacy, a Martial Focused Jedi thanks to his experiences.
Remember, this is PRIOR to the Clone Wars, THIS Obi-Wan is NOT NEARLY as experienced as THAT one. Non-the-less, Obi-Wan is in the top percentile of Jedi when it comes to sheer Chaos Magnet, and it has given him an Edge over most of his compatriots when it comes to experience and overcoming odds, usually of the unplanned and unseen variety.
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Obi-Wan might not win, but I sincerely doubt he would lose. Even prior to the Clone Wars Obi-Wan was considered a master of Soresu, the most defensive lightsabre style. Yes, he wouldn't stand a chance against the real Masters (yet) like Windu, Yoda and Dooku, but against anything less than a Master of that kind of skill I would expect him to be able to at least hold his own for a considerable length of time.

Obi-Wan is very much an 'immovable object' style of Jedi, he's not very good at winning fights, but when it comes to not losing he excels. That's why so many of his fights just keep going until his opponent makes a mistake he can capitalize on.
(And why once he had the high ground, Anakin was screwed. :V)
 
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Fencer said:
a taxpaying free citizen of the Republic we all swore to protect."
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This is such a stereotypical americanism that it breaks the imersion for me
Now i am not entirely sure about the galactic republic but most people (outside the US) feel no need to emphasize the taxpaying part because part of being a citizen/resident is to pay taxes to the gouvernment
 
LuxEterna said:
This is such a stereotypical americanism that it breaks the imersion for me
Now i am not entirely sure about the galactic republic but most people (outside the US) feel no need to emphasize the taxpaying part because part of being a citizen/resident is to pay taxes to the gouvernment
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As a taxpaying american who co opted an omake for his purposes I can honestly say that didn't even occur to me. Wonder if we think that way because the people who don't pay taxes are criminals or if we are all just so scared of the IRS that we tack it on to be sure they don't start poking us.

or if it's a qualifier that we are in fact employed and not homeless?
 
Fencer said:
Wonder if we think that way because the people who don't pay taxes are criminals or if we are all just so scared of the IRS that we tack it on to be sure they don't start poking us.

or if it's a qualifier that we are in fac
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I think its more from the time of your little revolution that you started because you didnt want to pay your (fair) share of the taxes
So now you use it to show that you arent planning another revolution (see i'm a loyal citizen, i am paying taxes, no need to suspect me of planning an uprising)
 
LuxEterna said:
I think its more from the time of your little revolution that you started because you didnt want to pay your (fair) share of the taxes
So now you use it to show that you arent planning another revolution (see i'm a loyal citizen, i am paying taxes, no need to suspect me of planning an uprising)
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While I wouldn't have put it like that, yes, the USA has a certain history with paying taxes that most other western countries do not, which does seem like a probable cause for the uniquely American emphasis on taxpaying citizens.
 
Zealous Specter said:
er what are you trying to say? Are you thinking precognition in a duel, would be like them seeing the move an enemy is going to use before they use it? Or get feeling of danger from a direction, and they back off or take a gamble, kinda like spidey sense? The Echani can do it as well, but they use pure instinct instead of the force.
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Fencer said:
one day I was practicing against this girl from my school who was a freshman first year fencer, and she scored 4 consecutive points on me Because it took me that long to figure out just what the hell she was doing. It was a weird random little trick that anyone with experience would have called a stupid idea and I had never seen it before. Once I figured it out it never worked again and I came back from 4-0 and won 4-5 because it was the only trick in her arsenal at the time and skill difference accounted for everything else. had that been an actual sword fight she would have killed me because she got the first hit in. And the next three as well.

that's the value of surprise in a fight. Surprise can negate even the biggest differences in skill for a brief moment and in a death match thats all it takes.
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This is what I am talking about. Even if you see a trick coming, and see it beforehand, it can still land if you still don't understand it. Sure, even a good trick would likely only work once, but it only needs to work once to kill.

Besides, Force Precog is kinda finnicky from my understanding.
 
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