- Location
- LEO
I don't know what you think this could possibly be about? This story explores what happens when force usage becomes common knowledge. I applied this revolution in knowledge to droids.
Using The Force Made Easy
- Thread starter Fencer
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
One is nature/the force, the other is built. Putting someone together from body parts and activating them is recycling, but while the outcome is a person are they alive or not - that's the question. And in Star Wars it's easy to answer, clones not grown 'naturally' have something go wrong with their force presence(souls), ones grown in Force-Null areas can grow unnaturally, and even somehow 'reincarnate', living people who had a clone grown with a force presence had their clones be mad, people who had clones grown after they died seem to have memories they shouldn't.
But again... depending on which canon you use.
But this is shifting from the simple response I gave about robots/droids not being alive. They're built, Shards grow naturally on a Force-Strong planet.
(sorry, I shifted not someone else)
Also the question is, what EXACTLY is meant by 'alive'. As the actual definition of 'alive' is defined in a way that Fire is alive. Fire eats, it produces children/offspring, it grows and dies... hell it even breathes.
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Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
Why is the Force building things different from people (who are the origin of the Force) building things?
Wrong. Clones grown too fast have something go wrong with them. 'Too fast' in this case being 'less than one year', which turned out to be the minimum for stable clones with Spaarti Cloning Cylinders, though one year is too short to produce high quality clones; the Kaminoans do their clones in 10 years so that they can have plenty of time for learning and training while in the tube.
Growing an adult human in 1 or 10 years is not 'natural', not even a little bit.
Why, exactly, clones grown to maturity faster than one year go insane unless kept within the 'Force repulsion' of the special tree lizards is never explained, beyond the obvious 'something to do with the Force' implication.
e:
Precisely.
Prior to the Iron Knights, 'alive' in The Galaxy Far Far Away meant 'biological', and while that is absolutely a completely arbitrary distinction it is at least a consistently arbitrary distinction.
But once you add the Shards into the mix, the distinction is no longer consistent, hence what I meant by saying they raised more questions than they answered.
e2: If I cloned a bunch of body parts separately; organs, muscles, skin, etc, and then put them all together into a functional human, would that human be able to use The Force?
If yes, what makes that human different from a droid?
If no, what makes that human different from a human who was grown all in one go instead of in separate pieces?
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- Location
- Australia
The scene* in the movie has Kenobi saying "I am ready to face the trials" to become a Knight and Yoda replies "Our own counsel will we keep on who is ready" - and they do make him a Knight at the end of the movie. I thought what TPM did show was that Obi-Wan hadn't yet mastered his emotions like Qui-Gon had, via the scenes of the two throughout that culminate with the final scene of them fighting Maul: when all three are waiting for the power fields to drop, while Qui-Gon sits to quietly meditate (mastering his emotions) and Maul angrily paces back and forth (letting his emotions dominate), Obi-Wan stands tensely - and subsequently struggles to retain control, attacking Mail in a very aggressive style after Qui-Gon is killed.
As Yoda says to Luke in TESB when the latter gets distracted during training by a vision of his friends in danger, "Control, control you must learn, control!" And later in response to Luke saying "But I can help them! I feel the Force!" Obi-Wan replies "But you cannot control it."
Or as Obi-Wan says to Luke in ROTJ: "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor." Note that Obi-Wan is saying that Luke's feelings - his familial bond with Leia - are inherently a good thing, just that they carry a risk if he can't master them and keep them from showing.
*This is shortly after, in the same scene, Mace Windu states they won't train Anakin because "He is too old." And that's because (Coruscanti) Order training is predicated on starting very young, before children can start solidly forming the kind of social nuclear attachments that their normal training doctrines aren't designed for. So, at least the Council is wise enough to realise that.
Qui-Gon, adamant the boy is the Chosen One of Prophecy, then goes "I take Anakin as my padawan learner" - i.e. if the Order won't train Anakin in the normal fashion, he'll take the time to train the boy personally (as a Jedi Master can do under the Code**, albeit only one at a time***). Which I strongly suspect would've worked out - except for that sudden case of death by Sith lightsaber and the Council then utterly derping (in my opinion, to echo a certain Nemoidian, "are you brain-dead?!") by assigning the boy to the barely-minted Knight who just lost the same Master. I mean seriously, the Order wants to avoid rogue emotional attachments and then throws those two together?! Wut?
**The movie mentions "the Code" more than once, and whatever it is, it's neither (or consists of more than) the "X, yet Y" or "Y, not X" mantras.
***Which is an interesting parallel to the Banite Sith, come to think of it.
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And this is why I should have gone into this as if it was a workplace email.
Droids are not alive because they are built. They were created by someone to do something. It is a thing of science.
Shards are alive because they grow as a crystal. They are formed by nature. It is a thing of Geology.
Clones in Star Wars are a messy mess, and I've seen 4 different ways they work over the years. On my drive into work I was going back over going "But this, except that time before, and then ..oh yea and then Clone Wars and they changed again..." so I'm bowing out of anything to do with that one as it's a messy canon mess, and I don't know from what point anyone else is coming from.
Now OTOH if I remember, Shards are Sapient but not Sentient. They can think, can talk using radio waves and the force, but can't actually detect the world around them or interact with anything. They control droids with the Tech Force power, and can get normal senses using droids.
Droids on the other hand are Sapient and Sentient, and therefore should be considered people IMO.
- Location
- LEO
Let's say your unfounded supposition is true. A person could design a manufacturing process that took advantage of geological processes to create a "natural" silicon brain, or create a reverse cyborg with a fleshy grown body, or straight up mind uploads.
The lines you are drawing are weird. Is a paralyzed blind man who can communicate not sentient? The reason you are ignoring clones is because their existence blows holes in your arguments.
All this is dependent on the kind of world that wants to be written. If OP wants to relegate droids to sentient furniture, there's nothing we could do about it.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
You can't just say something like this and then go 'oh but Clones don't count because they completely undermine my argument so I'm just going to pretend they don't exist.'
Clones are built, they are created by someone to do something, they are a thing of science. They can still use the Force.
e:
And you still haven't addressed what, exactly, the difference is between 'nature' and 'people'. People are a product of nature, why are the things that people do less 'natural' than the things that happen without people? What special aspect of personhood renders people 'unnatural'?
And if people are natural, then why are the things they create unnatural, and why is creating a new person inside another person natural if the things that people create are unnatural?
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And just to further confuse the issue, we have Geode. A literal rectangular slab of rock who's able to communicate and navigate a ship. And he's High Republic, so as current canon as you can get.
Seriously though, Star Wars is one of those settings you need to pick and choose what to hold consistent, especially if you're including obscure stuff from Legends. Every possible example of how something works or happened has three contradictory counter examples. Ultimately, it's not a science fiction framed through captains logs. It's a fantasy introduced as happening a long time ago, in a galaxy far away.
Seriously though, Star Wars is one of those settings you need to pick and choose what to hold consistent, especially if you're including obscure stuff from Legends. Every possible example of how something works or happened has three contradictory counter examples. Ultimately, it's not a science fiction framed through captains logs. It's a fantasy introduced as happening a long time ago, in a galaxy far away.
- Location
- Somewhere
I do not really know what the point of this post was. It starts off giving the impression that you are trying to argue with me about my impression being wrong, but then everything you say except for one quote from Obi-Wan in Return of the Jedi just supports the post you quoted.
Either way, I am guessing you did not read the rest of the thread before posting that reply. Fencer has stated that the direction of that particular discussion has become off topic. Or at least had run its course. Both mean that the conversation on Jedi being anti-attachment was to be dropped.
From what I can tell, the reason for that is that its like the twin bonds you see pop up in the force sometimes, but because of the disparity of experience or whatever, the still growing and fragile mind of the clone gets crushed by the "weight" of the original. The force exclusion zone seems to protect the mind until it can stabilize "naturally" or something. And this is as it applies to normal people. It gets even worse for force sensitives because they have so much more connection to the force, making the strain that much more unbearable.
You're mixing up Sentient and Sapient. Sapient means "self aware", and a paralyzed blind man can still interact with the world around him, even if just by moving. So he's Sapient. Words mean things. If this is where you're having problems with me, then look up the actual meaning of what makes something alive in real life.
I dropped the clones because I can't even identify WHAT argument I want to make for them. We had one time when you couldn't make a living working clone at all, it was a husk that only worked for Force Possession. We had another time when unless you slow grew (natural timeline) clones you'd end up with insane clones, only to discover that you could flash grow clones in a force null area, and you couldn't clone Force users at all unless you did it inside a null area. That then changed, and changed, and changed.
I started going down the 'made things' argument with clones thinking of the old original 'clones have no soul' path, since that means the force didn't like them. Then it went to "But the Force was ok with clones grown slowly like a normal living thing", into "and then outside the force"...
That's why I dropped it. It's a messy mess that I don't even know where to start arguing for or against.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
No it doesn't. Sentience is self-awareness, specifically the capacity to be aware of feelings and sensations.
Sapience, also known as sagacity and wisdom, is the ability to think and act using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense and insight.
Fencer
Writer
- Location
- 2nd shift
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Get away from the fate fandoms lore debates, I said. Try another fandom, I said.
... should have written that crack fic where teletubies are demons that devour hunamity leaving human souls forever trapped in their stomachs so that the demons might forever be amused by their victims suffering and the sun/satan looks down on it all and loughs.
... should have written that crack fic where teletubies are demons that devour hunamity leaving human souls forever trapped in their stomachs so that the demons might forever be amused by their victims suffering and the sun/satan looks down on it all and loughs.
....Ok if it turns out I'm messing up that term I'm going to be depressed at making that mistake.
Your first mistake was not remembering that Star Wars is older than almost everyone here, and the canon's changed 5 times.
Also it's the internet and someone is 'wrong'.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
Oh the hunamity!
(The someone is you
)
0th Law
The Promethean Rose
- Location
- 5 Minutes into the Future
- Pronouns
- They/Them
That doesn't mean "mock the person who's disagreeing," it means "drop it."(The someone is you
- Location
- Buffalo, NY, USA
Soooo... A normal episode of Teletubbies then?
Also, mandatory reference:
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Rajvik_wolfboy
Wolf amongst the stars.
- Location
- Florida
Err.. I thought that everyone knew that about the teletubies, I mean, its not like they are actual people.
prometheus110
Join Cayman-Global & be part of the 1E-9 percent!
- Location
- La Ballena City Raft
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This is actually pretty fun. Good work, mate.
Q and A requests
Fencer
Writer
- Location
- 2nd shift
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yo, so I kind of expected people to notice and jump on it, but then I got distracted by the debates and never brought it up when you all didn't. Obviously I need to do a green jedi episode and now that yoda's gotten involved and given John a credibility boost a darksider reacts video should happen within a few weeks as well.
so maybe between those two the cast are going to have a Q&A video. I've got a couple question to work in there for plot reasons, but I'm throwing the door open for suggested questions. I will not promise to use all suggestions and please remember that these questions should be things someone in universe would think to ask. But otherwise yeah go nuts they can be to anyone on the crew and not just john.
so maybe between those two the cast are going to have a Q&A video. I've got a couple question to work in there for plot reasons, but I'm throwing the door open for suggested questions. I will not promise to use all suggestions and please remember that these questions should be things someone in universe would think to ask. But otherwise yeah go nuts they can be to anyone on the crew and not just john.
- Location
- New Jersey, USA
Hmm, what Darksdier do the Jedi know lives at this point? All the ones I can think of are thought as either dead or non-existing.
InterstellarHobo
Cosmic Vagrant
- Location
- No Fixed Planetary System
"Hey, do you wanna buy some deathsticks?"
0th Law
The Promethean Rose
- Location
- 5 Minutes into the Future
- Pronouns
- They/Them
At least a couple are probably going to be, essentially, requests for Jedi/John intervention in [insert problem here], with varying degrees of credibility &/or significance. (Because let's traumatize people over their inability to help everyone!)