Using The Force Made Easy

[Fencer]

honestly dude, dont let anyone try to change stuff like this, its a spiral that only leads to resentment because your readers are forcing you to change your story to fit their liking, its your story, do what makes you happy with it. it promotes content growth and keeps the rest of us happy we are getting chapters.
cant remember where but an author i knew grew to resent a great story due to reader nitpicking making them feel the story wasnt good enough unless they kept editing it to their liking.

Click to shrink...

It's a balancing act. I use reader feedback to improve my skills, and create better stories. John and Obi-Wan's lightsaber fight got edited to make it more believable shortly after the original chapter dropped because people had valid arguments.

My fic Archer came dangerously close to grinding to a complete halt because someone got really offended, and when I tried to be accommodating they made some truly ridiculous demands. I ended up ignoring everything they said after several months for a much simpler solution which left the door open for personal interpretations. Which was my original idea when a few people made respectful calm critics before that person came along.

By the same token though the start of that fic could have been more realistic if I'd listened to a few people trying to point out an issue, only I was already well and truly done listening because that genuine criticism got drowned under a wave of grumbling at the fact the protagonist was being pragmatic and patient and law abiding instead of angry and reckless.

All things in moderation, including reader moderation. You folks don't know the shape of my long term plans but your also looking at it with fresh eyes which are not personally invested or blinded by excitement.

 

[Lycanthromancer]

Aaand I'm drawing a line. Please find an appropriate thread if you want to discuss the merits and short comings of real world religions and holy texts. This is not that thread.

Edit: putting things in terms of real world religions is unavoidable given some of the topics of this story, and I do it plenty enough that I'm not going to argue against it. Opinion statements about a real world religion that are not relevant to the story or it's themes is asking for a derail and I'm not interested in seeing it happen.

Click to shrink...

Will do.

 

[GamingGeek]

You are referring to Lords of the Expanse box set.

The people you refer to are young nobles from across the Tapani Sector, not one world. Theses people are known as saber rakes, who use lightfoils, and have nothing to do with the Jedi.

The saber rakes are basically bored young nobles who found a weak version of a light saber and decided to use them to fight duels for entertainment.

Click to shrink...

I'm gonna have to check my old games in storage, you might be right and I'm blending stuff from different sources - but I'm not sure and my brain insists it's not that. (Not to argue over this, but I want to see how my memory is. It has been a few decades.)

 

[Nelicar]

You folks don't not know

Click to shrink...

This is probably me being pedantic, but I feel the need to point out that "don't not" is a double negative and should either be "do not" or "don't".

 

[dhasenan]

Yeah, but you need to remember that this is a universe with really really advanced medical care. Cybernetics are commonplace and act as full bioreplacements in most cases with few downsides. Bacta tanks mean that rapid recovery is available to basically anyone who can afford it.

In an iron age society force healing would likely double or triple your lifespan.

In a starship age society I doubt it does more than play around at the margin compared to the wealthy of that society.

Click to shrink...

It's like my Latin teacher always said: you hate me. He hates me!

Wait, wrong quote. I meant: Context, baby, context.

A poor moisture farmer on Tatooine who gets sick might have no way to handle illnesses and injuries that shorten their lifespan. Practicing Force techniques could double their lifespan. A low-wage worker on Naboo might have a health care plan (or nationalized healthcare) that handles the bulk of their problems; Force techniques could handle the rest and give them a few extra years on average. And a member of the Galactic Senate could use Force techniques to recognize poisons very quickly, which could extend their lifespan greatly.

Woman think about, and worry about the possibility. I don't think I've ever met a guy who was worried about it. I know it happens. It's just as wrong. But the mentality just isn't there culturally or in my head. I can make the adjustment if people want but honestly that kind of oversight feels realistic especially given how emotional John is at that point so I'd honestly rather leave it.

Click to shrink...

Do you want this to be the case in your version of the Star Wars universe? There is no wrong answer here.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

It's like my Latin teacher always said: you hate me. He hates me!

Wait, wrong quote. I meant: Context, baby, context.

A poor moisture farmer on Tatooine who gets sick might have no way to handle illnesses and injuries that shorten their lifespan. Practicing Force techniques could double their lifespan. A low-wage worker on Naboo might have a health care plan (or nationalized healthcare) that handles the bulk of their problems; Force techniques could handle the rest and give them a few extra years on average. And a member of the Galactic Senate could use Force techniques to recognize poisons very quickly, which could extend their lifespan greatly.


Do you want this to be the case in your version of the Star Wars universe? There is no wrong answer here.

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure 90% of poor moisture farmers on Tatooine are eaten by that planet's wildlife.

 

[Shujin]

Honestly... the bit about the force extending lifespan is probably kept semi-concealed from most people/Padawans and knights till they are able to show sufficient ability to let go... as there are PLENTY of life extension/immortality techniques availaible with the force... the problem is most of them are Darkside Sith techniques and therefore made by lunatics with no problems with mass murder, horrible side effects or body jacking...

Click to shrink...

Master Fay, literal legendary rogue Jedi. The Dark Woman is also an example of life extension. Unless we're going 'future space medical technology' on it, all of the examples of 70+ human Jedi masters still looking or acting like they are 40 is also a thing. While Master Yoda's species is unknown, not even mentioning it as a possibility of his connection to the Force seems a little weird.

 

[Fencer]

Do you want this to be the case in your version of the Star Wars universe? There is no wrong answer here.

Click to shrink...

Do we have any reason to assume it wouldn't be the case? Honestly it's a minor cultural detail. Mirroring the culture I'm familiar with doesn't seem like a problem. I don't write with the agenda pf changing peoples ingrained thoughts or anything I'm just here to make a kick ass story.

 

[kaosisreality]

Star Wars, at its heart, pulls from the Samurai genre. The question is whether or not gender equality within the Samurai genre spills into Star Wars. I'd argue that it does spill over, given the strong female leading and supporting characters. But it's not necessary.

 

[Tranquil Zebra]

On the topic of gender equality, I'll just throw in my two cents and say that while the Force and blasters can even the playing field in a fight, there are evolutionary reasons for the sex not carrying the young being less risk averse and more prone to extremes in their behaviour. Most soldiers are male, most gangsters are male, and most people breaking their necks while filming stupid stunts are male. This doesn't mean there are more male than female jedi and sith, though, and people playing important roles in stories are usually outliers by several metrics, anyway. Also, non-human gender dynamics could be very different from human ones, the female is often bigger than the male, and so on. In humans, there is actually pretty little sexual dimorphism.

In a galaxy far, far away, I'd assume the Republic as a whole to be broadly egalitarian, with some specieism and sexism scattered about for flavor. I don't think twi'lek slave boys are very popular, for one, while the Dathomiiri are extremely matriarchal. Heck, if you want to be funky, you could even rip off Speaker for the Dead and have a species make their menfolk into fathertrees.

 

[Fencer]

Speaker for the Dead and have a species make their menfolk into fathertrees.

Click to shrink...

Wow now that's a trip down memory lane. Haven't thought of that since I read the sequels back in middle school.

More seriously I'm really not interested in spreading the focus of the fic to something so contentious and varied because your right it will vary from species to species and planet to planet. And I just don't want to tackle that rats nest.

 

[Mr. Idiot]

You know a thought occured to me, people keep talking about the whole putting an emotion into the force thing but it's always one at a time. People don't have just one emotion, so perhaps try multiple emotions that balance eachother. With eb and flow, push and pull, nuance. More of the self essentially.

Because what you put into the force you get back, if you're only getting more of one you become unbalanced, but what if you put something more balanced into the force. A song with more than one lyric?

Multiple emotions and ideas at a time, or one after the other, like singing a song into the force. A more nuanced thing, sometimes conflicting sometimes not. But it seems a bit more balanced than just dumping one emotion into the feedback loop pool.

Kinda like singing to the Unseen in lord of the rings, or a Shout of The Thu'um. You put ideas, emotions, and concepts into the force. Try to apply skill and weave what you put in instead of just pouring. Paint a picture to it, sing a song, weave a tapestry. They keep putting obsession (by only ever pouring one idea or emotion in at a time), so they get obsession out (more of that thing.)

Of course, this applies to songs themselves, sing the same song too often and you start getting obsession/feedback loop/Avalanche.

It's all about change, perspective, and nuance, keeping balanced. Not a perfect solution but it *sounds* safer/more reliable than just the traditional method of just dumping an emotion in. Maybe you use a different song for different things. Like a spell, couldn't resist.

The force is your audience, they give you what you give them, so give them a balanced song.

I'm just kinda thinking aloud, but I couldn't get this out of my head so I decided to get it down. All aboard the USS Crackpot Theory/Probably-Bad-Idea.

 

[Fencer]

You know a thought occured to me, people keep talking about the whole putting an emotion into the force thing but it's always one at a time. People don't have just one emotion, so perhaps try multiple emotions that balance eachother. With eb and flow, push and pull, nuance. More of the self essentially.

Because what you put into the force you get back, if you're only getting more of one you become unbalanced, but what if you put something more balanced into the force. A song with more than one lyric?

Multiple emotions and ideas at a time, or one after the other, like singing a song into the force. A more nuanced thing, sometimes conflicting sometimes not. But it seems a bit more balanced than just dumping one emotion into the feedback loop pool.

Kinda like singing to the Unseen in lord of the rings, or a Shout of The Thu'um. You put ideas, emotions, and concepts into the force. Try to apply skill and weave what you put in instead of just pouring. Paint a picture to it, sing a song, weave a tapestry. They keep putting obsession (by only ever pouring one idea or emotion in at a time), so they get obsession out (more of that thing.)

Of course, this applies to songs themselves, sing the same song too often and you start getting obsession/feedback loop/Avalanche.

It's all about change, perspective, and nuance, keeping balanced. Not a perfect solution but it *sounds* safer/more reliable than just the traditional method of just dumping an emotion in. Maybe you use a different song for different things. Like a spell, couldn't resist.

The force is your audience, they give you what you give them, so give them a balanced song.

I'm just kinda thinking aloud, but I couldn't get this out of my head so I decided to get it down. All aboard the USS Crackpot Theory/Probably-Bad-Idea.

Click to shrink...

YOU! I LIKE THE CUT OF YOUR JIB!!!!

Your thinking, more than that you are thinking ahead. John's focused on single emotions right now for a reason. It's a foundation to build on. It's all meditation and basics right now because that's all their ready for but you are absolutely right real life and emotions are messy! See that one disney movie… or was it pixar…. Never mind, not the point!

Think about traditional sith. Fear, anger, hate, and pain. The three emotions mesh very well with one another. And inflicting pain can cause all three.

For real life situations, yes emotions are much more complex and nuanced and very very imprecise. You can't describe an ideal balance as one part fear, two parts defiance and dash of rage. That's crazy. No one would be able to do anything with a description like that. Especially because everyone is different. So you can't just jump to the master level work, no you have to start from individual building blocks and work your way up, learning about yourself the whole way and that's even before working intent into the mix. Remember people aren't just emotion, they are also logic and thought. Working that part of themselves into the action doesn't make using the dark side safe, but it does make it safer. A tether back to rational thought you can cling too. A ledge to walk along instead of a tight rope, or a way to stay off the swells in rough seas.

 

[Negation]

Which means Palpy powers the dark side with joy from sadism since he enjoys the suffering from others.

 

[Ranakastrasz]

For real life situations, yes emotions are much more complex and nuanced and very very imprecise. You can't describe an ideal balance as one part fear, two parts defiance and dash of rage. That's crazy. No one would be able to do anything with a description like that. Especially because everyone is fundamentally different.

Click to shrink...

Interestingly, another fanfic (The Unique Properties of Dark Magic (MLP)) I read actually did use both parts of that. The Protagonist takes a while to realize that, obviously, he doesn't really have a human brain, and being able to feel multiple distinct chunks of emotions shouldn't be normal. Also, some of his descriptions later do use ratios like that.
As for the second part, his classification system is intrinsically subjective, both for emotional triggers, as well as power scales.
----
As for the actual story.
I do want to see Palpatine's reaction, and I half expect it to be him overhearing someone talking about it, or derived training, since he doesn't seem the type to browse the interwebs.
I want to see a PHO-like forum thread on the topic.
Also, though it probably needs to wait a few months, I want to see law enforcement and military perspectives once training actually is shown to work.

Yes, Mindtricks are horrifying. It is barely dampened in the movies by making it comedic, to the point of the "not the droids you are looking for" meme, but mindcontrol like that is exactly as abusable as pointed out.

Water synthesis for desert planets. I would probably start by looking for any rumors of hydrokinesis. A 2 minute search gave me wookieepedia's page on Shapers of Kro Var who apperantly were elemental (fire, water, earth, air) manipulators. The page doesn't have a lot of details.

 

[0th Law]

For real life situations, yes emotions are much more complex and nuanced and very very imprecise. You can't describe an ideal balance as one part fear, two parts defiance and dash of rage. That's crazy. No one would be able to do anything with a description like that. Especially because everyone is different. So you can't just jump to the master level work, no you have to start from individual building blocks and work your way up, learning about yourself the whole way and that's even before working intent into the mix. Remember people aren't just emotion, they are also logic and thought. Working that part of themselves into the action doesn't make using the dark side safe, but it does make it safer. A tether back to rational thought you can cling too. A ledge to walk along instead of a tight rope, or a way to stay off the swells in rough seas.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't be so confident, personally. We've seen ample examples of how the Dark Side can fuck up just one emotion. Now imagine the effects of multiple amplified emotions on top of the effect on brain chemistry. I fear that the deleterious effects would only be amplified.

 

[blankslate]

You know a thought occured to me, people keep talking about the whole putting an emotion into the force thing but it's always one at a time. People don't have just one emotion, so perhaps try multiple emotions that balance eachother. With eb and flow, push and pull, nuance. More of the self essentially.

Because what you put into the force you get back, if you're only getting more of one you become unbalanced, but what if you put something more balanced into the force. A song with more than one lyric?

Multiple emotions and ideas at a time, or one after the other, like singing a song into the force. A more nuanced thing, sometimes conflicting sometimes not. But it seems a bit more balanced than just dumping one emotion into the feedback loop pool.

Click to shrink...

YOU! I LIKE THE CUT OF YOUR JIB!!!!

Your thinking, more than that you are thinking ahead. John's focused on single emotions right now for a reason. It's a foundation to build on. It's all meditation and basics right now because that's all their ready for but you are absolutely right real life and emotions are messy! See that one disney movie… or was it pixar…. Never mind, not the point!

Click to shrink...

Actually.... that lines up with something Fencer already has in the story. John hasn't made the connection even though he got halfway there, likely because of the surrounding problems and how much he feels he really wasn't ready for it.

Here:

"Balance is balance." I shrugged and with a light mental touch floated a coaster onto one corner and set it to spinning on the bar top. "If I were desperate, it might look something like this. Emotions swirling around me, and only that one centerline holding me steady. Like the eye of a hurricane, calm in the middle of the storm. Feeling all that emotion but refusing to let it influence me. I've had to employ that mentality once when I had the bad luck to be in a town that was getting raided by slavers… And I didn't quite get it right." They both looked at me cautiously. But I was in full lecture mode now, I wasn't going to cut off mid lesson.

"I was terrified, and furious, and desperate. And I fed some of that into the Force and used it because I needed the slavers dead, and I needed them dead fast. But at the core I was fighting to keep myself and others alive and free, not to hurt or kill. Emotion and logic, or maybe I should say purpose, fed into the Force together. Not just emotion. Like I said, I didn't quite pull it off as intended, and it wasn't safe. It was like being caught at sea in a storm, you have to try and find the smoothest route you can. Don't ride to the top of the big waves or it could flip your boat. Try not to let too many waves crash on the deck or they could sweep you over the side, get out as fast as you can, and when it's all said and done?" The coaster slowed and then rested on an edge rather than a point. "Decompress. Get all the extra water out of the boat, put anything that was tossed about back in place, and repair whatever might have been damaged."

Click to shrink...

Added some emphasis, but the gist is John tried that, didn't manage to pull it off as he'd hoped, and has apparently been trying to avoid a repeat since he's already identified it as unsafe and he didn't succeed in what he was going for.

 

[Mr. Idiot]

YOU! I LIKE THE CUT OF YOUR JIB!!!!

Click to shrink...

Thanks! Guess it's not *totally* out there then.

As for the thing 0th law said, it's partly about telling the force "Why."

Having multiple whys is better than the [HATE/FEAR/PAIN] combo or a single emotion, as a more nuanced force-pour/song is easier to skip out of and avoids destructive behavior.

It's essentially giving the force your priorities, ones that aren't necessarily in the same vein help you keep that in mind.

Say you're protecting a village, [HATE] has the potential to make you loose sight of that, since you're busy shanking the thing you [HATE] and the force is telling you you [HATE].

*but* the opposite has issues of it's own [LOVE] makes you clingy and distracted, could make you paranoid about losing them. This applies to all "force pours" that only involve one emotion or emotions that connect to the same thing. Empathy as well as it could blind you to trickery from the foe.

A single teather is the *opposite* of what you want, you want to be in a web with many connection points. Multiple notes and reasons. Make the mindset you pour into the force capable of making different decisions. Multiple desires.

Using a single tether is like trying to balance a sesaw with multiple rocks on end with one rock on the other.

Instead, use all the rocks as tethers against the others. Each is a teather in its own right against the others. Some more than others. It's not just scales with one thing on one end and one thing in the other, it's a web of pulls. Some pulls are in the same general direction, some aren't.

{[Love/Protectiveness/Fear of losing your people] [Duty/Anger/Determination to stop the raiding of villages] [Empathy/Pity/Understanding the hard times upon the raiders]

Disclaimer: (just an example, might not be all the tethers you'd have)

No one of these is the tether, they're all tethers, it's a web of strings and reasons.

On top of that, you wouldn't use one web all the time, you'd change to a new web when you're done protecting the village. You aren't in "protect village mode" all the time normally, why should that change with force use?

Different webs for different goals and situations, you should never *stick* to a web.

 

[Themarineguy]

I think that it's mostly a Sith variety of the Force Ghost technique combined with possession. The reason why none of the Palpy Clones go mad or mutate is because he isn't actually cloning a force user. Hell, as far as we know they might be outright braindead, and he's straight up just possessing and then manipulating a puppet.

Click to shrink...

Wasn't Palp's mind also deteriorating each jump, until his deeper madness pushed his fanatically loyal followers into the breaking point, falling into a him or them situation, leading to palps getting shanked by his own loyal followers?

 

[Fencer]

There are a few ways to go about it. But in a real life scenario, especially combat picking one emotion is going to be hard.

1) So if you have to dump everything you are feeling into the Force you can try to focus on a single emotion, make that your mainline. And the others an after-note. Not quite the same as meditating on a single emotion but close. Of course then if your using it for something big you are pumping a lot into it and getting a lot back. Which means if the primary emotion is something you have a hard time dealing with, it could quickly become a feedback loop.

2) You could counterbalance emotions and play with proportions no intent just emotions. Lets use sex as an example because people remember it and it can be nuanced. John using almost pure lust needed to be stunned and lectured out of it. Now what if he mixed it with other emotions common to sex? Love affection, care, joy, possessiveness, anger, forgiveness, loneliness, relief, if you want to get into make up sex hate sex etc etc etc. if john mixed in love and affection, not only would the act itself have taken on a different tone but in the aftermath he could have switched focus to a different emotion and not needed to be stunned. Though he might have ended up super clingy again. So that's not exactly a perfect solution and depending on the mix it could backfire BADLY.

3) You could take a bunch of emotions, say fear & anger, because your being attacked and try to focus them with something different like determination and defiance. (This is what I'm going to do and you won't stop me) Which goes back around to intent. Your using those emotions for a purpose and feeding that purpose in along with the emotions, but if you can't make your intentions the center piece to that… well those negative emotions are going to hold more sway. So it's safer but not safe. That's John's goal, perfect that process, but he hasn't pushed his luck with it.

He started playing with the Dark side at 18 he is currently 21… 23? I'll have to double check my notes but the point is he hasn't been doing this for all that long and he is still figuring it out. But he's also cautious about it when he doesn't have his back to the wall. Some early experiences going very nearly bad has made him extra cautious. There is very good reason he keeps harping on the fact that Force enhanced emotions are not safe. They are not, he knows it, he knows he's on the right track but he also knows he's only gotten this far by being a mix of careful and lucky.

 

[Mr. Idiot]

snip.

Click to shrink...

Not just emotions, but desires, reasons, priorities, goals. Different wants/needs. Hence the sets of threes, each of those sets of emotions in the web is a different goal/want/purpose, not just a different emotion.

You can have many emotions behind a tether/purpose/web point, but it's still a single web point, if strong. One that's ideally among many web points.

Like how a rope/string is made of thread/strands, and those rope/strings balance against eachother in the web of priorities/drives. Sometimes they have emotions/strands in common, sometimes they don't, but they *are* distinctly different ropes in different directions, even if some ropes happen to be in directions close to eachother.

 

[Fencer]

Not just emotions, but desires, reasons, priorities, goals. Different wants/needs. Hence the sets of threes, each of those sets of emotions in the web is a different goal/want/purpose, not just a different emotion.

You can have many emotions behind a tether/purpose/web point, but it's still a single web point, if strong. One that's ideally among many web points.

Like how a rope/string is made of thread/strands, and those rope/strings balance against eachother in the web of priorities/drives. Sometimes they have emotions/strands in common, sometimes they don't, but they *are* distinctly different ropes in different directions, even if some ropes happen to be in directions close to eachother.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, I'm doing this from work on my phone between things and I feel like I missed something you were saying somewhere, or maybe we were on the same page to a point then I didn't explain to well because I'm excited and rushing.

I'll give your ideas a closer look later when I'm not running on fumes. Might work them in, might not. Might be something other people play with as some inevitably break off from John's school of thought. Either way you still get mad props for being the first one to mention how complicated emotions could get.

 

[Rihtan]

Not just emotions, but desires, reasons, priorities, goals. Different wants/needs. Hence the sets of threes, each of those sets of emotions in the web is a different goal/want/purpose, not just a different emotion.

Click to shrink...

Got to say the wants/needs path you're following seems pretty good. We already have core movie sources talking about the Force being a web that binds all living things together.
The classic fear, hate, anger trio are very individual emotions. With work you can make them useful and direct them to better purposes, but at their core they are all very primitive, very simple, me-focused emotions.
The lighter emotions like love, affection, joy, care are more social. They can be individualized half of them almost require someone else being involved in the situation and they all come up more in social/empathetic contexts.

Sort of makes sense to me that lighter emotions tend to cause to you form more connections to others within the web of life and the web of the force.

 

[Mr. Idiot]

Got to say the wants/needs path you're following seems pretty good. We already have core movie sources talking about the Force being a web that binds all living things together.
The classic fear, hate, anger trio are very individual emotions. With work you can make them useful and direct them to better purposes, but at their core they are all very primitive, very simple, me-focused emotions.
The lighter emotions like love, affection, joy, care are more social. They can be individualized half of them almost require someone else being involved in the situation and they all come up more in social/empathetic contexts.

Sort of makes sense to me that lighter emotions tend to cause to you form more connections to others within the web of life and the web of the force.

Click to shrink...

Negative and positive are sorta a weird construct, all emotions have purpose and source. You might have have multiple instances of a given emotion from different sources.

Light emotions can come from a base place, and darker ones can come from a complex place. All emotions can pop up in all sorts of places for any number of reasons. Good or bad.

You can fear for others, or for the group, society, friends, loved ones, their legacies. You can be angry because something encroaches upon them.

No emotion is evil or base, they all have purpose for existing, it's simply a matter of how skilled you are at recognizing, weaving, controlling, and prioritizing them and their sources. Understanding the sources and properly weaving them is a skill in self understanding, introspection, discipline, mental organization, the perspective to see the thing*S* you want/need, and quick thinking.


Edit: it's also a matter of poetry and what's relevant to what you're trying to do, ideas of fire and sunlight work great when linked with pride, awe, determination, joy, etc etc. You play the force a song on a web of strings woven from the contents of your soul. Play a Song of Sunfire and Shadow, justice and determination, pride and eagerness, desire to see your allies succeed and burn away the foe, disgust and fear at the prospect of the desires of evil, pity and empathy at the nature of the foe. As an example. Weave a narrative, keep it balanced, make sure to have strings that let you do that. They're there, look inwards. Philosophy, self understanding, prioritizing, poetry, balance, and looking at the situation and yourself with many angles.

Different abilities call for different themes and ideas.

 

[Shouryuu]

I've got a question, technically could a force user use the energy gain from Tutaminis to fuel other abilities like Force Healing?

Like for example, drain electrical power from a generator then use the energy gain to fuel Force Healing on others? If they could, why don't the Jedi use this?